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  1. #8251
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    Quote Originally Posted by huckbucket View Post
    Sorry. "False" is the key word. I could give a shit if someone wants to believe that apples are the most delicious fruit. But if their opinion is demonstrably false and if that belief directly effects myself or others, and if they are clearly "dug in," then I don't have much patience. The other thing that's deeply troubling is when someone who is uncredentialed attacks someone who is an expert. Anyone can ask questions if it's a genuine attempt to understand, but the idea that a non-expert believes they can shortcut decades of experience and knowledge is mind boggling.
    OK.
    I don't believe in the zero sum either/or dynamic in this or lots of other social fractures. I think you've got a point and so do I.

    So, please, just consider putting a little more effort in the patience and respect end of it. If we can all do that, maybe we can really convince more people in all these rifts to the benefit of all.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  2. #8252
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    A friend of mine who's a lobbyist was quoted recently in a magazine article: “You cannot hammer them into changing their minds. You cannot force them into changing their minds. You cannot embarrass them into changing their minds. You can only educate them into changing their minds.” And, he adds, “It takes a lot of coffee.”
    ^This.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  3. #8253
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Sometimes there are two equally respectable and rational sides to an argument. This is not one of those times. People are dying because other people are lying--including a certain governor of Florida who is willing to make people die in the hopes he can be President.
    I could say "well DUH" couldn't I?
    Or I could agree.

    But in the large, the goal is to get people to listen to the facts, the data, the science.

    If we keep treating people, the hoi polloi, the average joe, like shit, the science won't matter to them.

    DeSantis is his own problem.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  4. #8254
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_newguy View Post
    I think Buster has an excellent point about the insults not working. It plays right into the snobby intellectual stereotype that has been constructed.

    At the same time, I am sympathetic to the insults directed at those who typically show up with some snarky politically derived comment with the goal of spreading disinformation and pretending like the have equal footing with experts.
    Thanks.

    And yup. I can't help myself either, so I'm part of the problem of alienating.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  5. #8255
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    To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

    Maybe you can’t change their minds. The disinformation didn’t form in a vacuum. It grew out of frustration that the messaging from major news sources and forward thinking politicians didn’t align with their beliefs. Racists don’t want to be told that racism is wrong. Misogynists don’t want to be told that misogyny is wrong. People that profit from the destruction of the earth don’t want to be told that their way of life is causing harm. A lot of the progressive messaging is disrespectful by default because it inherently says that some people are doing it wrong. The us vs them infighting has grown out of that because it’s a great diversion that allows the people in power to get away with more. It makes it easy to push the extremes to the forefront so that we forget that “those people” are fellow humans, our friends and neighbors, struggling with the same shit that we are.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  6. #8256
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    From mofros Nature article, this is interesting



    Many viruses have glycans covering their outer proteins, camouflaging them from the human immune system like a wolf in sheep’s clothing. But last year, Amaro’s laboratory group and collaborators created the most detailed visualization yet of this coat, based on structural and genetic data and rendered atom-by-atom by a supercomputer. On 22 March 2020, she posted the simulation to Twitter. Within an hour, one researcher asked in a comment: what was the naked, uncoated loop sticking out of the top of the protein?

    Amaro had no idea. But ten minutes later, structural biologist Jason McLellan at the University of Texas at Austin chimed in: the uncoated loop was a receptor binding domain (RBD), one of three sections of the spike that bind to receptors on human cells (see ‘A hidden spike’).

    In Amaro’s simulation, when the RBD lifted up above the glycan cloud, two glycans swooped in to lock it into place, like a kickstand on a bicycle. When Amaro mutated the glycans in the computer model, the RBD collapsed. McLellan’s team built a way to try the same experiment in the lab, and by June 2020, the collaborators had reported that mutating the two glycans reduced the ability of the spike protein to bind to a human cell receptor1 — a role that no one has previously recognized in coronaviruses, McLellan says. It’s possible that snipping out those two sugars could reduce the virus’s infectivity, says Amaro, although researchers don’t yet have a way to do this.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  7. #8257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    OK.
    I don't believe in the zero sum either/or dynamic in this or lots of other social fractures. I think you've got a point and so do I.

    So, please, just consider putting a little more effort in the patience and respect end of it. If we can all do that, maybe we can really convince more people in all these rifts to the benefit of all.
    I don't know if you listened to that piece on The Daily where they interviewed antivaccers but the last woman really seemed completely uninformed. The interviewer asked how her grandmother died, and to summarize she had COPD but also contracted COVID-19 during a graduation party that the woman being interviewed hosted. She went on to say that her death certificate listed COPD and COVID-19 but that she didn't really die of COVID-19. The interviewer asks "well, if she didn't have COVID do you think she would've died" and the response was something along the lines of "well it weakened her body, so yeah we probably should have gotten her vaccinated and that could have saved her." Point is that the interviewer was kind and patient with her, didn't put her down but gently asked questions that obviously lead this woman to understand that she probably killed her grandma. However, she still thinks she won't be getting vaccinated.
    Damn shame, throwing away a perfectly good white boy like that

  8. #8258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    DeSantis is our problem.
    he's kind of a model for the discussion as he is a bad faith mouthpiece that is filling heads with bullshit


    Buster, i do appreciate your interest in keeping conversations civil -- it really is the high road & worthy of saying out loud every now & then as a reminder, as we all suffer from lapses

  9. #8259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    How does one arrive at the "12" number is my question to this.. as I said originally not all 12 yr olds are created equal...Just hoping i can get the little one stuck soon.....he's the holdout..

    Looks like masks are being asked for locally here in the hudson valley. I dont mind....easy enough thing to do.....not all places have signs "asking" yet, but I went to the bank and Autozone today and both had signs asking to wear vaxxed or not.
    In medicine, 12 years is usually considered the age that separates children from adults physiologically. Yes there are outliers but in general it’s a good reference.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  10. #8260
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  11. #8261
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    What do you think would happen if Biden and other senior Democrats flipped their messaging and started saying "All freedom-loving Americans should definitely _not_ get vaccinated! It's unsafe and unproven! Definitely do not get the vaccine!" Would the idiocracy sniff out a plot to increase their chance of death by Covid and try to own the libs by getting vaxxed?

  12. #8262
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    A friend of mine who's a lobbyist was quoted recently in a magazine article: “You cannot hammer them into changing their minds. You cannot force them into changing their minds. You cannot embarrass them into changing their minds. You can only educate them into changing their minds.” And, he adds, “It takes a lot of coffee.”
    Sadly, it's a case where the anti-vaxxers have to learn the hard way, which equals death or becoming hospitalized. A mild case of the COVID doesn't serve as a learning moment for the anti-vax crowd. Heck, there's a small subset of anti-vaxers who lose someone to COVID and think they died of something else. Because COVID is a hoax.

    Until science finds a cure for stupid, stupid people going to do stupid things.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  13. #8263
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    Quote Originally Posted by huckbucket View Post
    These are the traditional age ranges used by the FDA to guide clinical trial design. The 12 year old cutoff is in part due to it being the average age of puberty for both boys and girls (obviously there's a range).

    · Preterm newborn infants
    · Term newborn infants (0 to 27 days)
    · Infants and toddlers (28 days to 23 months)
    · Children (2 to 11 years)
    · Adolescents (12 to 16-18 years (dependent on region))
    Much appreciated. The ages are trail (prior) based.. thats what I was looking for...Hoping the 2-11 comes sooner rather than later personally.

  14. #8264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toadman View Post
    Sadly, it's a case where the anti-vaxxers have to learn the hard way, which equals death or becoming hospitalized. A mild case of the COVID doesn't serve as a learning moment for the anti-vax crowd. Heck, there's a small subset of anti-vaxers who lose someone to COVID and think they died of something else. Because COVID is a hoax.

    Until science finds a cure for stupid, stupid people going to do stupid things.
    I think the tide is turning and increasingly non-vaxxed will be a difficult status to maintain. More and more employers requiring it, it's only a matter of time until insurance companies penalize it, businesses requiring it.

    It won't get them all to change their mind but every arm added helps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  15. #8265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    "The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt"

    Les Claypool
    inventor of velcro
    I thought Les plays bass & sings in Primus.

  16. #8266
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    Multnomah Co back to indoor masking indoors starting Friday
    https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavir...ng-friday.html

  17. #8267
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    In order to educate someone the information has to come from someone the subject is willing to accept as an authority, and a greater authority than those asserting the opposite. Therein lies the problem. Very few of us construct knowledge out of whole cloth. We accept that the earth is round because were told so by people we respected. Most people get their political, social, cultural and religious beliefs from their parents and other authority figures they encounter in their formative years, not from a sober-minded rational examination of facts. As adults we accept information we receive from our tribal leaders, not from people of the other tribe--no matter how respectful they are.


    If I were of a conspiratorial frame of mine, which I am, I might think that the cynical leaders of the anti-vaxing covid deniers were hoping to provoke an authoritarian response from the government and corporate America--vaccine passports, mask mandates, renewed shutdowns with economic collapse--in the hopes of inciting their followers to rise up. Look how the right in CA has used Newsom's strong response to the pandemic to build a plausibly successful recall movement against a governor who was elected with 62% of the vote. (And the possible outcome if the recall succeeds is truly frightening--46 candidates running to fill out the term and whichever one gets the most votes, no matter how small the plurality, wins.)

  18. #8268
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    We accept that the earth is round because were told so by people we respected.
    Whoa whoa whoa, what’s this “we” shit?

  19. #8269
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  20. #8270
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    the suggestible are getting the message from leadership

    "Podcast king Joe Rogan says vaccine passports move US 'closer to dictatorship'"
    https://thehill.com/changing-america...passports-move


    [eta, buster, I lasted 5mins...]

  21. #8271
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennymac View Post
    But drinking age is a law.

    What these people really need to convince them is a cobranded vaccine. Let Trump slap his name on the Pfizer vaccine and those fuckers would get more shots than Splat.

  22. #8272
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    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    he's kind of a model for the discussion as he is a bad faith mouthpiece that is filling heads with bullshit


    Buster, i do appreciate your interest in keeping conversations civil -- it really is the high road & worthy of saying out loud every now & then as a reminder, as we all suffer from lapses
    i've appreciated the civil discussion, but i generally ignore the trolling on this board.

    Eventually, there is going to need to a be point of reconciliation.

    in my local community, i have been most appreciative of some of the alternative community leaders who have broadly shared about getting vaccinated, or getting COVID (mild breakthrough when many non-vaxed peers were more severe), or shared their hesitancy but are still getting vaccinated, etc. there were also some covid survivors, who were previously loud outspoken deniers, got severely infected (one was on a vent), and then did their best to persuade their peers to believe and understand the disease more and then get vaxed.

  23. #8273
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    I thought this was funny.

    Name:  vaccine passports.jpg
Views: 186
Size:  74.9 KB

  24. #8274
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulster2626 View Post
    Their names are Krista, Kayla, Kyla, and Kara. His wife's name is Karla. Krista (the antivax one) played in the Lingerie Football League. Kyla just opened up a store called KyKy's Kookies, but quickly changed the name after the possibly risky KKK alliteration was pointed out to them.
    Can we get back to the thread drift? Vax is boring

    I’d bang the mom long before the unfortunate fat daughter
    She got dads jeans
    “I’m a subhuman jizz monkey”

    Thx mods. It’s an awesome signature.

  25. #8275
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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    I thought Les plays bass & sings in Primus.
    Lennon Claypool Delirium.

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