To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[old goat]

Cunt up this thread? This thread has been cunted forever you stupid fuck. And you, our little anti vax snowflake, are trolling here.

adult? I’m adult enough to see your dumb politics in this gretch. If you were half as smart as you tell yourself you are you’d see it too. Now put me on ignore so you can have your safe space snowflake.

There is nothing he said that is in the slightest way unreasonable. I have disagreed with him in the past but I don't understand the latest piling on.

Q: Now that I've had my booster am I super human or just back to where I started when I got the first two jabs?

Uh, you're at least 6 months older, so worse off than when you got the first shots.

[riser4]

Uh, you're at least 6 months older, so worse off than when you got the first shots.

LOL

[Bunion 2020]

There is nothing he said that is in the slightest way unreasonable. I have disagreed with him in the past but I don't understand the latest piling on.

Same here, his waiting a little while to make a decision seems logical.

[old goat]

Gretsch--let me clarify--the risk of GETTING myocarditis is immediate, vs the risk of getting Covid. As far as the long term effects if someone does get myocarditis, my casual reading is that the cases seem to be self limited without long term effects but of course your cardiologist will be far more knowledgeable about this.

[SumJongGuy]

Yes, we definitely will have a chat with the cardiologist about it. At his last physical we asked his pediatrician and the answer was "I will be getting my child (who is in my sons class) the vaccine." That is obviously a different answer then a detailed discussion with a specialist up to date with his health history.

It's hard but isn't it likely that COVID will do more damage than the vaccine if the kid gets COVID unvaccinated? The latest studies seem to suggest that an unvaccinated person will get COCID once ever 16 months on average.

I get that you don't want to be the CAUSE of the damage ( your decision to vax them) and if the get COVID that's something you may see as beyond your control.. or God's will or whatever that you didn't cause by jabbing them.. But you'd really have to make them the boy in the plastic bubble to ensure COVID doesn't harm them worse than the vaccine might..

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Gretch said his kid already had Covid


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[Adolf Allerbush]

Gretch said his kid already had Covid


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Exactly. He's had covid, so he has some natural immunity from that, plus he's worried about the heart issues. Seems like a reasonable approach that he's taking in this case. I too disagree with Gretsch more often than not, but am not seeing how he is being at all political in this case. He's just talking about a difficult decision for the health of his kid.

There are a bunch of families we know that are doing what Gretsch is doing...waiting to see what happens in the first wave of kids dosed in this age group. I think Gretsch has a legitimate concern and don't see why what he's doing is that crazy. The people who's kids have no health issues whatsoever that are sitting on the sidelines waiting for some uknown amount of kids to get vaxxed first is something I get a little frustrated with, but again, I think these families I know will ultimately get vaxxed and like others have said, shaming isn't working.

[SumJongGuy]

Gretch said his kid already had Covid


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Delta? ICUs are full of people on vents who had version 1.0 but now dying from 2.0..

I'd go with that the cardiologist says.. or keep the kid at home 24/7 and wear a mask myself around them at all times if no vax was my decision..

[teletech]

Really the kid thing comes down to what makes you comfortable. My little kid got covId with no symptoms, the other one didn’t get covid. My vaccinated wife, her Vaccinated mother and my vaccinated self got covid. The risk of long term after effects of covid in kids are unknown as is the risks from the vaccine. When I asked my pediatrician about the covid vaccine for kids her reasoning for it was so u don’t spread it to her grandparents. But I’m vaccinated aNd spread it to vaccinated grandma. Murky

[gretch6364]

Delta? ICUs are full of people on vents who had version 1.0 but now dying from 2.0..

I'd go with that the cardiologist says.. or keep the kid at home 24/7 and wear a mask myself around them at all times if no vax was my decision..

Out of curiosity....the vaccine was just approved for this age group (5 to 11). Before now, would you of kept your kid at home 24/7 and worn a mask around them 24/7? I would also presume, that means not hugging your kids, kissing them, wrestling on floor, etc.?

We play with our kids all the time, eat dinner together, sleep in our camper together, drive them places. Did everything just suddenly change because the vaccine received emergency approval for their age group....or would you be suggesting since we learned about COVID in March of 2020 that we severe all physical contact with our children until the vaccine was approved?

[Benny Profane]

I think that, at this point, with schools open for a while, that kids are ok. Now, if America really wants to protect their kids, stop feeding them toxic food from fast food chains washed down by copious amounts of sugar water, and take their Facebook (Tik Tok? Snap?) communicators away and talk to them. Seriously. I read recently that child obesity (well, obesity in general, but, once it starts, hard to stop) increased 18% with this lockdown. Pair that with a recent revelation that 1 out 0f 5 millennials have no friends. Zero. I'd be much more concerned about that. They're going to get through this Covid thing, just like the rest of us.

[SumJongGuy]

Out of curiosity....the vaccine was just approved for this age group (5 to 11). Before now, would you of kept your kid at home 24/7 and worn a mask around them 24/7? I would also presume, that means not hugging your kids, kissing them, wrestling on floor, etc.?

My older sister has Lupus. Her immediate family, husband and kid 100% wore legit N95 masks around her and she stayed home until her doctors agreed it was OK for her to get the vax. and she also already has a booster. So yes..

[LongShortLong]

Exactly. He's had covid, so he has some natural immunity from that, plus he's worried about the heart issues. Seems like a reasonable approach that he's taking in this case. I too disagree with Gretsch more often than not, but am not seeing how he is being at all political in this case. He's just talking about a difficult decision for the health of his kid.

There are a bunch of families we know that are doing what Gretsch is doing...waiting to see what happens in the first wave of kids dosed in this age group. I think Gretsch has a legitimate concern and don't see why what he's doing is that crazy. The people who's kids have no health issues whatsoever that are sitting on the sidelines waiting for some uknown amount of kids to get vaxxed first is something I get a little frustrated with, but again, I think these families I know will ultimately get vaxxed and like others have said, shaming isn't working.

It's the other way around. Covid causes myocarditis at much higher rates than the vaccines. Covid also causes many other problems that vaccines don't. At risk individuals get more of these complications. At risk individuals should be first in line to get vaccines. If someone wants to wait and see, that would be the healthy kids with the better argument to wait. However, if kids get Covid complications at a rate greater than 1/5000, it's still a bad argument. (I haven't followed the Covid kids stats).

[dunfree]

but I don't understand the latest piling on.

Lol.

[KQ]

Uh, you're at least 6 months older, so worse off than when you got the first shots.

That's it? Really? WTF then?

[skiJ]

Cunt up this thread? This thread has been cunted forever you stupid fuck. And you, our little anti vax snowflake, are trolling here.

adult? I’m adult enough to see your dumb politics in this gretch. If you were half as smart as you tell yourself you are you’d see it too. Now put me on ignore so you can have your safe space snowflake.

^^^ reported. tj

[jono]

Out of curiosity....the vaccine was just approved for this age group (5 to 11). Before now, would you of kept your kid at home 24/7 and worn a mask around them 24/7? I would also presume, that means not hugging your kids, kissing them, wrestling on floor, etc.?

We play with our kids all the time, eat dinner together, sleep in our camper together, drive them places. Did everything just suddenly change because the vaccine received emergency approval for their age group....or would you be suggesting since we learned about COVID in March of 2020 that we severe all physical contact with our children until the vaccine was approved?

It seems like you're saying the risk of extremely protective behavior is greater than the risk of the disease. And it's known that the risk of the disease is greater than the risk of the vaccines. One might imagine that means a>b and b>c, therefore a>c...vaccination would be safest.

BTW, the reason your politics are being called out is that it was a couple of "conservative" trolls bringing most of the FUD about myocarditis back in the troll wars and every study that's been mentioned has been thoroughly debunked (see Multiverse's comment bith today and back then). But you're still citing their numbers, so that looks connected. I'm sure you're not letting politics influence your parenting in this, but if you let it constrain your information the effect might be the same. Anyway, talk to the cardiologist sooner than later, yadda yadda.

[Adolf Allerbush]

It's the other way around. Covid causes myocarditis at much higher rates than the vaccines. Covid also causes many other problems that vaccines don't. At risk individuals get more of these complications. At risk individuals should be first in line to get vaccines. If someone wants to wait and see, that would be the healthy kids with the better argument to wait. However, if kids get Covid complications at a rate greater than 1/5000, it's still a bad argument. (I haven't followed the Covid kids stats).

I agree, but Gretsch's kid has already had COVID. I think his concern is that the risk of myocarditis from the vaccine is too great for him, at this time, to subject his snowflake to. Is that the right decision? I don't know, and I"m not arguing that it is, but I certainly understand his concerns.

[gretch6364]

It seems like you're saying the risk of extremely protective behavior is greater than the risk of the disease. And it's known that the risk of the disease is greater than the risk of the vaccines. One might imagine that means a>b and b>c, therefore a>c...vaccination would be safest.

BTW, the reason your politics are being called out is that it was a couple of "conservative" trolls bringing most of the FUD about myocarditis back in the troll wars and every study that's been mentioned has been thoroughly debunked (see Multiverse's comment bith today and back then). But you're still citing their numbers, so that looks connected. I'm sure you're not letting politics influence your parenting in this, but if you let it constrain your information the effect might be the same. Anyway, talk to the cardiologist sooner than later, yadda yadda.

I am not in the group of "wearing mask is more dangerous to our kids social development then COVID" group of people. My take was more about what is realistic. I can be honest with myself and say that I don't have the will/discipline or whatever to cut off physical contract with my 6yo and 3yo. Now, maybe 50 years from now, I will lookback and say that COVID did so much damage to them physically with its long term effects that I should of locked them in their rooms for two years and put the house on separate ventilation systems. I sure as shit hope for my family and everyone else's families/kids that never becomes true.

I missed the "troll wars" period of this thread...probably because I stopped reading it when they started and things went sideways. As mentioned, COVID info to the public has turned into a such a shit show, that one would have to make it almost their full time job to distill down to what is true and what is not. For example....here is an article (not behind a paywall, but also not a formal scientific study and not from a right wing news source...I think at least) that appears to be pro-vaccine, but makes mention of some of the stuff coming out of europe for moderna, etc.:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/01/h...-children.html

My initial post was getting out my hesitancy to be the first in line with my 6 year old that has a bicuspid aortic valve. I would of hoped my mention of the adults in my families vaccine status would be an indicator that I don't make medical decisions for myself and my family based on politics. Politicizing medicine is incredibly stupid (IMHO) as is doing it with science. What is next....we base the engineering of buildings and bridges on a political agenda?

[skiJ]

I'm not sure which study is being discussed but researchers had to retract several preprint studies that miscalculated higher heart inflammation risk for Moderna and Pfizer Covid vaccines due to math errors.

For example: Covid study linking vaccines to rare side effect of myocarditis was wrong, researchers admit

gretch- I think it was Multi- who weeks ago said, ( and I paraphrase) get medical advice from your Medical Doctor, not the adventure forums' strangers. ...

. . . That said, Mult- and the goat and LSL have offered some Good information here.
I have followed the claims about myocarditis closely for the past three months ; what I find, are non-specific reports of vaccine reactions that get reported to AVERS.
I have found One report of diagnosed myocarditis, and that was from a group of 12 - 39 (thirty-nine years) year olds.

as LSL states, the risk of myocarditis is documented with covid ( in young males; That is what put a big Pause in collegiate football last Fall ) , And the risk of myocarditis from covid documented, And is far greater than the risk from vaccination.

. . . I am not comfortable with the analysis that claims the risk of myocarditis with vaccination is 1 / 5000. and I don't know that you will ever see a lower number, based on the information that is being used to generate that number. it's not a double-blind study, with patient follow-up, it's based on non-specific effects, and my review of the data three weeks ago was that on-average, the side effects were reported two weeks after vaccination.

I respect your concern for your son.
I also believe the risk of covid is far greater than the risk from vaccination
( the apparently healthy 28year old who died of covid in Utah last week had reportedly also been hospitalized for covid last year. ( see Monday's posts ) )

I encourage you to consult your son's cardiologist, and to place Great value on the cardiologist's recommendations in making your decision.

in closing, I apologize for the abuse you are enduring from the newest crop of trolls.
childhood vaccination seems to have again made this a topic for those who believe it is appropriate to only offer insults. 'We' are the poorer for it --

Good luck to you and your son. tj

postscript -

the reason to mention a young adult male who reportedly died of a second 'severe covid' infection is to illustrate that post-infection immunity is not the 'great' immunity others have claimed it to be.
the risks from covid infection are - from my perspective- Much greater than the risk from covid vaccination.

[MultiVerse]

Q: Now that I've had my booster am I super human or just back to where I started when I got the first two jabs?

I don't know about super human but your immune system is better trained to fight Covid than it was after the the first two jabs. Because your immune system not only produced new antibodies in response to the boost, long lived memory plasma B & T cells are also now more capable of producing antibodies in the future.

For example....here is an article (not behind a paywall, but also not a formal scientific study and not from a right wing news source...I think at least) that appears to be pro-vaccine, but makes mention of some of the stuff coming out of europe for moderna, etc.:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/01/h...-children.html

To recap, so far in the clinical trials there have been no vaccine-induced myocarditis in children, age 5-11. Myocarditis typically does not happen in pre-teenage kids. That doesn't mean it won't happen, but if it does it will probably be very rare.

In other words, according to the article “Myocarditis is usually a post-pubertal phenomenon,” Dr. Offit said, adding, “That made me feel better about the fact that we won’t be unpleasantly surprised” by a surge in myocarditis in younger children after they are immunized. Also worth mentioning Pfizer's children's vaccine is 10 μg compared with 30 μg for teens.

FWIW, I'm not arguing for or against—just attempting as much as possible to accurately define the issue whereas the NYTimes article's headline conflates teens with children rather than treating them separately.

[teletech]

The obit from the hellcat driving tinder dude, never mentioned vaccination status. Why keep bringing him up? He could have had aids and covid took him out. Bizarre

[LongShortLong]

Politicizing medicine is incredibly stupid (IMHO) as is doing it with science. What is next....we base the engineering of buildings and bridges on a political agenda?

Sadly there is some of that. Alaska's bridge to nowhere. California's train monument. Florida's collapsing condos. Need something in Maine to complete the corners.

And I agree with your other comment about general media being less than fully useful for figuring out covid or any other topic more complicated than where the Cardassians ate dinner. Researched stories are hard and don't pay. FUD is cheap and does.

Researched posts are hard too. My last one with no links needs some.

[dunfree]

Just to reiterate, so far in the clinical trials there have been no vaccine-induced myocarditis in children, age 5-11. Myocarditis typically does not happen in pre-teenage kids. That doesn't mean it won't happen, but if it does it will probably be very rare.

In other words, according to the article “Myocarditis is usually a post-pubertal phenomenon,” Dr. Offit said, adding, “That made me feel better about the fact that we won’t be unpleasantly surprised” by a surge in myocarditis in younger children after they are immunized.

Also worth mentioning Pfizer's children's vaccine is 10 μg compared with 30 μg for teens.

really, though so what? People will keep using it as an excuse no matter that it’s been debunked. It’ll go on forever. Because it’s not a good faith objection, it’s an excuse.

and public health medicine is implicitly political. Because it’s values of what is worth it for a population at large. The belief that you can disentangle this from politics is stupid.

there is plenty of good media on covid. Plenty of good on 5th is thread. If you can’t find it, you don’t want to, and that’s on you.

[Benny Profane]

Sorry to butt in again, but this is awesome

Newsmax forced to admit vaccines don’t make you glow

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...make-you-glow/

Right-wing media outlet Newsmax had no choice on Tuesday but to issue two statements. One came from Elliot Jacobson, Newsmax’s executive vice president and chief content officer:
Newsmax is a strong proponent that Covid 19 vaccines are overarchingly safe and effective. while at the same time raising concerns that mandates infringe on personal liberty and privacy. We have seen no evidence to suggest LUCIFERASE or LUCIFERIN are present in any vaccines or that they are used as any sort bioluminescent marker.
And here’s the other, from parent company Newsmax Media:
Newsmax strongly believes and has reported that the Covid 19 vaccines are safe and effective. We do not believe the vaccines contain any toxic materials or tracking markers, and such false claims have never been reported on Newsmax. The many medical experts appearing on Newsmax have supported the use of the vaccine.
What on earth could have prompted these bizarre statements? A tweet from Emerald Robinson, Newsmax’s White House correspondent:

https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/s...DH7dDub2w&s=19