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  1. #17451
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    Just got my booster and flu shots at the same time, one in each arm of course. Slow roasting chicken and potatoes, Netflix on cue, doubled-down on the CBD and ready for battle.

  2. #17452
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    Quote Originally Posted by turner716 View Post
    Genetically speaking not very much when compared to say an Englishman and an African.
    ...

  3. #17453
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    Seven posts to ignore list. Turner716 sets a new record

  4. #17454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    temporary travel bans are primae facie ineffective
    Early data suggest Omicron is as transmissible (or more) than Delta and it is not contained to the Southern African continent. So what is your response to leaders of Southern African countries who complain about G7 countries hoarding vaccines and punishing their countries for having more extensive genetic testing than, say, the US? As you point out, COVID is really no big deal, relatively speaking, in Africa. So why should they give a fuck? Why should they spend any money at all on genetic testing if, when, they do the honest thing and alert the world about the new variant the G7 countries' first response is to ban travel from the countries doing the alerting (despite most experts saying it won't really accomplish anything).

  5. #17455
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_newguy View Post
    Have we considered closing the southern border? I’ve heard those dirty UK travelers like to fly to Mexico City then pay a coyote to sneak across the Rio Grande.

    International air travel, how does it work?
    Do you really think this is how covid got around, via a pennyless illegal running across the border to get a shitty job in America ?

    OR does covid get around on really nice clean people who have assloads of money which they spend to travel cuz they have great jobs where they meet other really nice clean people from all over the world who also have assloads of money to travel ?

    In 2020 heli skiing in BC got shut down because 3 people in 3 ops tested positive, I'm pretty sure they just flew in and rented a car ... no coyotes involved
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  6. #17456
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    To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

    The banning of travel isn’t a punishment, nor a comeuppance— it’s a public health measure

    In a world with rampant uncontrollable virus spread, the suppression of trade or tourism isn’t the primary problem

  7. #17457
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    Early data suggest Omicron is as transmissible (or more) than Delta and it is not contained to the Southern African continent. So what is your response to leaders of Southern African countries who complain about G7 countries hoarding vaccines and punishing their countries for having more extensive genetic testing than, say, the US? As you point out, COVID is really no big deal, relatively speaking, in Africa. So why should they give a fuck? Why should they spend any money at all on genetic testing if, when, they do the honest thing and alert the world about the new variant the G7 countries' first response is to ban travel from the countries doing the alerting (despite most experts saying it won't really accomplish anything).
    My response is that is a bunch of South African politician BS spew.

    South Africa has ample vaccine stocks and refused further deliveries due to lack of demand. South Africa may in fact have been one the few countries where, pre-Omicron, the pandemic had morphed into endemic levels due to massive infection during the last year.

    And if you think I said that COVID was no big deal in South Africa, you didn't read my posts. It was a HUGE deal in South Africa. HUGE. Things were Italy 2020 bad. (Italy and SA have about the same population size, but median age in Italy is 47 vs 27 in SA while cumulative deaths are 134K vs 90K respectively).

    South Africa is not its neighbors.

    South Africa is NOT the best or only place performing genetic sequencing. They are not more extensive than the US. Seriously. Who the fuck told you that load of bullshit? They have sequenced like 0.5% of cases while we have gotten up to close to 5% of current testing, which is about where we need to be.

    You would have been telling us about how we shouldn't take one single action against the PRC because we would be punishing them for sharing information January. Well, unlike China, I think South Africa is acting in good faith. Your logic is the same logic of the people screaming RACIST about wanting to ban travel from/through China in mid-January 2020.

    So all that said, what exactly is your proposed response to knowing about a potential new VOC that has a geographically oriented primary prevalence that we could take some self protective action against?
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  8. #17458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    My response is that is a bunch of South African politician BS spew.

    South Africa has ample vaccine stocks and refused further deliveries due to lack of demand. South Africa may in fact have been one the few countries where, pre-Omicron, the pandemic had morphed into endemic levels due to massive infection during the last year.

    And if you think I said that COVID was no big deal in South Africa, you didn't read my posts. It was a HUGE deal in South Africa. HUGE. Things were Italy 2020 bad. (Italy and SA have about the same population size, but median age in Italy is 47 vs 27 in SA while cumulative deaths are 134K vs 90K respectively).

    South Africa is not its neighbors.

    South Africa is NOT the best or only place performing genetic sequencing. They are not more extensive than the US. Seriously. Who the fuck told you that load of bullshit?

    You would have been telling us about how we shouldn't take one single action against the PRC because we would be punishing them for sharing information January. Well, unlike China, I think South Africa is acting in good faith. Your logic is the same logic of the people screaming RACIST about wanting to ban travel from/through China in mid-January 2020.

    So all that said, what exactly is your proposed response to knowing about a potential new VOC that has a geographically oriented primary prevalence that we could take some self protective action against?
    Don’t question altaslob, he knows everything. He is an attorney in Tacoma after all and the most woke person on the planet.


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  9. #17459
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_newguy View Post
    Are you really this dense or stoned?
    No I just think Covid gets around on international travelers with the means to travel easily in international airports

    most of the Covid originaly came to USA from china thru Yurp

    and in other news worldometer is just about to clock 800,000 dead Americans

    should happen tomorrow
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  10. #17460
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    Worried about dirt immigrants 1400 miles away taking their white collar college grad job...

    Worried about same dirt poor immigrants giving them COVID but won't wear a mask or get the vaccine...

    Did I miss something??
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  11. #17461
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    No I just think Covid gets around on international travelers with the means to travel easily in international airports

    most of the Covid originaly came to USA from china thru Yurp

    and in other news worldometer is just about to clock 800,000 dead Americans

    should happen tomorrow
    You should pay more attention to your sarcasm meter than the worldometer


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  12. #17462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    My response is that is a bunch of South African politician BS spew.

    South Africa has ample vaccine stocks and refused further deliveries due to lack of demand. South Africa may in fact have been one the few countries where, pre-Omicron, the pandemic had morphed into endemic levels due to massive infection during the last year.

    And if you think I said that COVID was no big deal in South Africa, you didn't read my posts. It was a HUGE deal in South Africa. HUGE. Things were Italy 2020 bad. (Italy and SA have about the same population size, but median age in Italy is 47 vs 27 in SA while cumulative deaths are 134K vs 90K respectively).

    South Africa is not its neighbors.

    South Africa is NOT the best or only place performing genetic sequencing. They are not more extensive than the US. Seriously. Who the fuck told you that load of bullshit? They have sequenced like 0.5% of cases while we have gotten up to close to 5% of current testing, which is about where we need to be.

    You would have been telling us about how we shouldn't take one single action against the PRC because we would be punishing them for sharing information January. Well, unlike China, I think South Africa is acting in good faith. Your logic is the same logic of the people screaming RACIST about wanting to ban travel from/through China in mid-January 2020.

    So all that said, what exactly is your proposed response to knowing about a potential new VOC that has a geographically oriented primary prevalence that we could take some self protective action against?
    300,000+ people came from the PRC after the “travel ban” took effect. It was never a travel ban, and neither is this. It’s a ban on foreigners traveling to the US. some antivax lardass Texan on coming back from his hunting safari in Zimbabwe is likely more a risk, but they are fine.

  13. #17463
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    300,000+ people came from the PRC after the “travel ban” took effect. It was never a travel ban, and neither is this. It’s a ban on foreigners traveling to the US. some antivax lardass Texan on coming back from his hunting safari in Zimbabwe is likely more a risk, but they are fine.
    I think it’s a bit different this time with better testing for US citizens returning. It could buy a little time. On the other hand this could be the end.


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  14. #17464
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_newguy View Post
    So why did you respond to my clearly sarcastic post as if I needed to be educated on how disease moves via international air travel?
    are you still fucking little boys is the more pressing question
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  15. #17465
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    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    The banning of travel isn’t a punishment, nor a comeuppance— it’s a public health measure

    In a world with rampant uncontrollable virus spread, the suppression of trade or tourism isn’t the primary problem
    I honestly an starting to doubt seatbelts or airbags could be introduced to the US in the present environment. Because they don't prevent all deaths. I hope I'm wrong and just being too pessimistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post

    South Africa is NOT the best or only place performing genetic sequencing. They are not more extensive than the US. Seriously. Who the fuck told you that load of bullshit? They have sequenced like 0.5% of cases while we have gotten up to close to 5% of current testing, which is about where we need to be.
    Who is doing the most sequencing? Or I guess it could be several countries. And why is 5% were it needs to be, is that just cost/effort per detection of variants or are variants rare enough that any more sequencing is wasted?

  16. #17466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    My response is that is a bunch of South African politician BS spew.

    South Africa has ample vaccine stocks and refused further deliveries due to lack of demand. South Africa may in fact have been one the few countries where, pre-Omicron, the pandemic had morphed into endemic levels due to massive infection during the last year.

    And if you think I said that COVID was no big deal in South Africa, you didn't read my posts. It was a HUGE deal in South Africa. HUGE. Things were Italy 2020 bad. (Italy and SA have about the same population size, but median age in Italy is 47 vs 27 in SA while cumulative deaths are 134K vs 90K respectively).

    South Africa is not its neighbors.

    South Africa is NOT the best or only place performing genetic sequencing. They are not more extensive than the US. Seriously. Who the fuck told you that load of bullshit? They have sequenced like 0.5% of cases while we have gotten up to close to 5% of current testing, which is about where we need to be.

    You would have been telling us about how we shouldn't take one single action against the PRC because we would be punishing them for sharing information January. Well, unlike China, I think South Africa is acting in good faith. Your logic is the same logic of the people screaming RACIST about wanting to ban travel from/through China in mid-January 2020.

    So all that said, what exactly is your proposed response to knowing about a potential new VOC that has a geographically oriented primary prevalence that we could take some self protective action against?
    Ashish Jha, dean of the Brown University School of Public Health, echoes a lot of what I said in an opinion column in today's NYTimes.

    Second, the United States must ramp up genomic surveillance — monitoring viral genes and how they evolve over time — to identify Omicron when it arrives and track it as it potentially spreads through the country. The United States has been a surprising laggard on genomic sequencing and must do better.
    Lastly, America must push for a global effort to get more people in Africa vaccinated. While global vaccinations have been rising quickly, much of the African continent has been left behind. In South Africa, just under a quarter of the population has been fully vaccinated.
    And from his twitter:

    The signal to the next country is

    If you identify a variant and share it with the global community

    You will be punished with a travel ban

    I am not pro or anti travel bans

    They can be useful in instances

    But we should know that its weak tool for fighting a global pandemic
    This isn't about woke. It's not about racism. It's about enacting policies that actually accomplish things rather than policies that just sooth the constituents' fears. There are costs to travel bans and it is not just people vacationing to South Africa. Most of the people affected are not traveling for leisure but to be with their family. And it certainly deters countries from being honest with their data. I'm all for strict travel bans if you can convince me they will actually accomplish something. In this particular case, I am not convinced. Rather than a ban, why can you not require a 14 day quarantine? I wouldn't oppose proof of vaccination and a quarantine (the Belgium chick was not vaccinated).

    What I really dislike about travel bans is people assume they work and when they realize they don't work, they blame the government (which further deters people's faith in their government). From the beginning of this pandemic, every country has had a me first, insular reaction. It's as if we can gate off the rich from the peons in the ghetto. Experts have been saying from the beginning that this is not possible. You cannot wall off the problem, you need to address the problem where it lies (i.e. vaccinating poor countries with effective vaccines). The travel-ban, wall-off attitude permeates through other areas of policy. I mean, look at MTT who is honestly trying to claim that the southern border is somehow a COVID concern right now. There are a lot more MTTs in the US than Summits.
    Last edited by altasnob; 11-27-2021 at 12:26 PM.

  17. #17467
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    300,000+ people came from the PRC after the “travel ban” took effect. It was never a travel ban, and neither is this. It’s a ban on foreigners traveling to the US. some antivax lardass Texan on coming back from his hunting safari in Zimbabwe is likely more a risk, but they are fine.
    I agree what we did was a joke in January 2020, sadly, and we paid for it. It was by Chinese design and American incompetence. We weren't testing and we weren't even symptom screening. Quarantine should have been the order of the day and it wasn't.

    I'm advocating for better: anyone transiting or originating from the region banned or quarantined. Probably it needs to last about 120 days, evaluate every 30 days. If Omicron becomes widespread in the US, end the ban. If Omicron is deemed a non-threat, end the ban. Govs don't follow this. Look at Canada, they only lifted the US travel ban in August.

    Unlike 2020, there is at least a blanket testing requirement, which will catch the majority.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  18. #17468
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    Quote Originally Posted by abraham View Post
    I honestly an starting to doubt seatbelts or airbags could be introduced to the US in the present environment. Because they don't prevent all deaths. I hope I'm wrong and just being too pessimistic.
    You are not wrong
    It’s tribalism first, thoughtfulness/common sense later

  19. #17469
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    Quote Originally Posted by abraham View Post
    IWho is doing the most sequencing? Or I guess it could be several countries. And why is 5% were it needs to be, is that just cost/effort per detection of variants or are variants rare enough that any more sequencing is wasted?
    Australia, NZ, Iceland (last I looked) are doing the most sequencing... they were hitting half or most cases.

    WHO recommends >5%.

    See, the point is not to ID every case, because for the most part you don't treat cases different based on variant (although you could have targeted MAB if you had timely results). The point is to detect emergent VOCs early and understand prevalence trends of variants. Basically, is a new variant behind a local spike and is that a threat?

    We only really started surveillance in the US at the end of 2020 and it was a modest start. We expanded capacity significantly during 2021.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  20. #17470
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    Just call them freedom belts

  21. #17471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    We only really started surveillance in the US at the end of 2020 and it was a modest start. We expanded capacity significantly during 2021.
    …something about that timing…can’t put my finger on it…what is it?

  22. #17472
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    Quote Originally Posted by abraham
    I honestly an starting to doubt seatbelts or airbags could be introduced to the US in the present environment. Because they don't prevent all deaths. I hope I'm wrong and just being too pessimistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by ::: ::: View Post
    You are not wrong
    It’s tribalism first, thoughtfulness/common sense later
    You are insane to compare someone opposing travel bans with someone opposing a seat belt. There are very legitimate arguments against travel bans (for fucks sake, the WHO is still against them). There are no arguments against wearing a seat belt.

    The variant has prompted several countries to impose restrictions such as travel bans on several southern African countries, against the advice of the World Health Organization
    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/...l-restrictions

  23. #17473
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    Ashish Jha
    Knows or should know exactly what I said in my post about the reality of SA vs the rest of Africa. SA reached an apparent endemic state and wasn't interested in mass vaccination on the individual level.

    it certainly deters countries from being honest with their data.
    Just like there is absolutely a consequence, cost, and deterrence for an individual deciding to stay home if sick, get tested, potentially being put in isolation if positive?

    The alternative is being a goddamned motherfucking selfish asshole, like the People's Republic of China.

    South Africa did the right thing. They aren't being punished. This is PUBLIC HEALTH POLICY, not behaviorism applied to nation states. And Ashish understands that.

    Rather than a ban, why can you not require a 14 day quarantine? I wouldn't oppose proof of vaccination and a quarantine (the Belgium chick was not vaccinated).
    That's a policy question. You can do what you want but you have to incur the cost and political will. New Zealand could corall all foreign arrivals into busses and escort them in military guarded convoys to commandeered hotels guarded by soldiers with rifles and supplied with food. That is expensive, time consuming, and a bad look in America. So you can pick one. Bans or real quarantine paid for by the taxpayer.

    Experts have been saying from the beginning that this is not possible.
    No, they have only said your strawman is not possible. Your strawman is that a travel ban will be completely effective. No expert thinks that. You then conclude that travel bans therefor don't work at all. Experts don't think that either.

    So let's agree:
    1. Poorly executed travel bans don't work.
    2. Well executed travel bands buy some time in the short term but should not be sustained.

    You can cannot wall off the problem,
    You literally can, temporarily, to an extent.

    you need to address the problem where it lies (i.e. vaccinating poor countries with effective vaccines).
    The time for that was in the past and is in the future, but right now, you have an emergent outbreak of a VOC. You can buy time to act, or you can say fuck it and take on the chin so that you feel morally warm and fuzzy in some other respect. Fuck that.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  24. #17474
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    To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    You are insane to compare someone opposing travel bans with someone opposing a seat belt. There are very legitimate arguments against travel bans (for fucks sake, the WHO is still against them). There are no arguments against wearing a seat belt.
    Really?
    A large slice of the public don’t use logic anymore

    Pizza parlor pedophile rings

    Space lasers

    Invading the Capitol

    People screaming in PTA meetings about CRT; school boards dismissing good administrators for not following the bullshit fear-mongering hype machine

    Politicians voting against their constituencies’ best interest to not fund the government or an infrastructure bill or stop a pandemic

    Pure partisan insanity

    [ETA]I think we’re addressing diverging thoughts about the original statement

  25. #17475
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    What I really dislike about travel bans is people assume they work and when they realize they don't work, they blame the government (which further deters people's faith in their government). From the beginning of this pandemic, every country has had a me first, insular reaction. vaccines).
    I don't know anything so I don't have an educated opinion on travel bans. That said, pre-Covid, a pandemic simulation was run as part of a preparedness exercise (John Hopkins 2018 in DC, CladeX ). One of the things that stood out to me was that certain measures, despite being known to be ineffective or counter productive, would have to be enacted because of 'demand' and perception of taking action. Not logical and demonstrated need, rather appetite for perceived 'action' (politics / optics). One of those actions was travel bans. Also worth noting, many of the missteps of the former guy were forecasted and cautioned against; even our public reactions were prescient.

    https://www.centerforhealthsecurity....de_x_exercise/

    https://www.globalhealthnow.org/2018...sible-pandemic

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31593508/

    The assembled experts quickly mapped out the case against travel bans. Julie Gerberding, MD, MPH, playing the role of the CDC director (a role she held in real life from 2002-2009), pointed out that Frankfurt is a major airport hub, so banning just one leg of the journey wouldn’t work. Travel bans, she explained, are simply “…not effective, impractical and potentially harmful.”

    The White House National Security Advisor, played by Tom Inglesby, MD, director of the Center for Health Security, pushed the Council to consider whether there could be any circumstances under which travel would be banned? And, if not, he asked, how should that be explained to Americans, given bans by other countries? The discussion underscored the importance of education and communication surrounding sensitive issues that might seem counterintuitive to people outside the public health community.
    Here are some opinions on travel bans during Ebola (yes I know different disease and all that): https://blogs.cdc.gov/global/2014/10...bola-outbreak/

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...el-ban/381577/

    Again, while these diseases (and circumstances) are very different some of the same arguments would seem to apply to COVID. I dunno. There's all sorts of differences.

    The first case of Ebola diagnosed in the United States has caused some to call on the United States to ban travel for anyone from the countries in West Africa facing the worst of the Ebola epidemic.

    That response is understandable. It’s only human to want to protect ourselves and our families. We want to defend ourselves, so isn’t the fastest, easiest solution to put up a wall around the problem?

    A travel ban is not the right answer. It’s simply not feasible to build a wall – virtual or real – around a community, city, or country. A travel ban would essentially quarantine the more than 22 million people that make up the combined populations of Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Guinea.

    We don't want to isolate parts of the world, or people who aren't sick, because that's going to drive patients with Ebola underground, making it infinitely more difficult to address the outbreak.When a wildfire breaks out we don’t fence it off. We go in to extinguish it before one of the random sparks sets off another outbreak somewhere else.

    We don’t want to isolate parts of the world, or people who aren’t sick, because that’s going to drive patients with Ebola underground, making it infinitely more difficult to address the outbreak.

    It could even cause these countries to stop working with the international community as they refuse to report cases because they fear the consequences of a border closing.

    Stopping planes from flying from West Africa would severely limit the ability of Americans to return to the United States or of people with dual citizenship to get home, wherever that may be.

    In addition to not stopping the spread of Ebola, isolating countries will make it harder to respond to Ebola, creating an even greater humanitarian and health care emergency.

    Importantly, isolating countries won’t keep Ebola contained and away from American shores. Paradoxically, it will increase the risk that Ebola will spread in those countries and to other countries, and that we will have more patients who develop Ebola in the U.S.

    People will move between countries, even when governments restrict travel and trade. And that kind of travel becomes almost impossible to track.

    Isolating communities also increases people’s distrust of government, making them less likely to cooperate to help stop the spread of Ebola.

    Isolating communities and regions within countries will also backfire. Restricting travel or trade to and from a community makes the disease spread more rapidly in the isolated area, eventually putting the rest of the country at even greater risk.

    To provide relief to West Africa, borders must remain open and commercial flights must continue.

    There is no more effective way to protect the United States against additional Ebola cases than to address this outbreak at the source in West Africa. That’s what our international response—including the stepped-up measures the president announced last month—will do.

    What works most effectively for quelling disease outbreaks like Ebola is not quarantining huge populations.

    What works is focusing on and isolating the sick and those in direct contact with them as they are at highest risk of infection. This strategy worked with SARS and it worked during the H1N1 flu pandemic. Casting too wide a net, such as invoking travel bans, would only provide an illusion of security and would lead to prejudice and stigma around those in West Africa.

    Americans can be reassured we are taking measures to protect citizens here.

    Today, all outbound passengers from Guinea, Liberia, and Sierra Leone are screened for Ebola symptoms before they board an airplane.

    Staff from CDC and the Department of Homeland Security’s Customers & Border Protection will begin new layers of entry screening, first at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York this Saturday, and in the following week at four additional airports — Dulles International Airport outside of Washington, D.C.; Newark Liberty International Airport; Chicago’s O’Hare International Airport; and Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport.

    Combined, these U.S. airports receive almost 95 percent of the American-bound travelers from the Ebola-affected countries.

    Travelers from those countries will be escorted to an area of the airport set aside for screening. There they will be observed for signs of illness, asked a series of health and exposure questions, and given information on Ebola and information on monitoring themselves for symptoms for 21 days. Their temperature will be checked, and if there’s any concern about their health, they’ll be referred to the local public health authority for further evaluation or monitoring.

    Controlling Ebola at its source – in West Africa – is how we will win this battle. When countries are isolated, we cannot get medical supplies and personnel efficiently to where they’re needed – making it impossible to fight the virus in West Africa.

    As the WHO’s Gregory Hartl said recently, “Travel restrictions don’t stop a virus. If airlines stop flying to West Africa, we can’t get the people that we need to combat this outbreak, and we can’t get the food and the fuel and other supplies that people there need to survive.”

    We know how to stop Ebola: by isolating and treating patients, tracing and monitoring their contacts, and breaking the chains of transmission.

    Until Ebola is controlled in West Africa, we cannot get the risk to zero here in the United States.

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