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  1. #14126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    I see so...the resident "expert" on TGR can use non peer reviewed studies to make his argument, but when someone uses a non peer reviewed study that might have a different result its considered "misinformation"

    This place is a hoot.
    Find a post of mine where I criticized to the Israeli study, or any study, for not being peer reviewed? Not only that, but I was the first person here to decribe the Israeli study and discuss its limitations (without mentioning peer review.)

    Now we have better data. In case you missed it yesterday or the month before, in contrast with the observational Israeli study and contrary to your lies that people here are ignoring prior infection, the best available data comes from the UK where they are doing randomized testing at the population level.

    In an ongoing randomized trial with over 300K people involving regular testing to determine both vaccine immunity and natural immunity during Delta, mRNA vaccine immunity performs better than natural immunity.

    The blue column contains mRNA vaccinated numbers, the yellow AZ, the green column contains unvaccinated but tested positive in the past:

    Name:  E-IQ2_dVIAEX_Xw.jpg
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    The chart shows mRNA > previous infection > AZ against a low viral burden. Whereas against a high viral burden all vaccinated people had fewer symptoms when a breakthrough infection occurred compared with previous infection.

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...237v1.full.pdf

  2. #14127
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    No one is forcing you to be here


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  3. #14128
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    When one is offered as data and the other offered as proof, maybe there's a difference?

    It's easy to get mixed up between Old Uncles and New Aunts.
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  4. #14129
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    I see you're tied up in the fee-for-service segment of the industry, which is a bigger scam than capitated care. The idea behind Medicare Advantage is sound--instead of paying the doctor or hospital for care you receive, which encourages unnecessary procedures and upcoding, you pay the provider a fixed fee per patient, which gives them an incentive to keep people healthy, but also gives the provider an incentive to withhold care. MA works if the doctors making the decisions about medical care are insulated from the financial consequences of their decisions--ie they're salaried--and don't have to get approval for procedures and hospitalization. That's the way Kaiser MA, which is what I have, works and works very well IMO as a patient and as an ex Kaiser doctor. But unlike some of the plans Kaiser Senior Advantage isn't free and you don't get the free goodies like gym memberships, and the Kaiser model hasn't been easy to duplicate--there's just too much money to be made doing it the other way.

    The original idea behind MA was that it was supposed to hold costs down but it hasn't even done that. So yeah, MA is bleeding Medicare dry. So is traditional Medicare. Cynical as I am I don't see a way out. Greed and exploitation are too deeply ingrained in the American psyche. See the lab start up mentioned a few pages back (or maybe in the other thread)--offering covid tests for $300+. It looks what they're mainly doing is buying up rapid tests that should be available direct to consumers at the local drug store and performing the tests at a 1000% markup. Reminds me of Pharma-bro of a few years back. (Is he in jail yet?)
    Iím not tied up in fee for service. I wish we could have Medicare for all with no need for supplements. The problem with Medicare advantage is that the people that work for them lead you with questions about health conditions that they can then increase your risk score to get more money even if you donít have increased risk.


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  5. #14130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post

    This place is a hoot.
    You are free to go.

    You are not owed anything here.

    Life isnít fair.

    Sorry your parents never taught you these things^

    But if you reread what I just said and let it sink in and really embrace it you may just become less of a thread cunter and troll.

    Or donít - you can still leave though - no one will stop you. No one is required or responsible for stopping you. No one has to want you to be here. This is not a special snowflake zone with participation ribbons for everyone.

  6. #14131
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    It seems like quoting the Atlantic instead of checking primary sources (they gave links, I assume?) warrants another mention of https://www.callingbullshit.org/syllabus.html
    What are you talking about? It's not like the Atlantic is Breitbert. I can't think of any mainstream news media that has done a better and more thorough job of explaining COVID science than the Atlantic. Ed Yong won the 2021 Pulitzer for his reporting on COVID science in the Atlantic. I'm not a scientist, nor do I pretend to be, just like the vast majority of earth (and TGR). I read the Atlantic, NY Times, and TGR, which makes me more informed on this stuff than the majority of Americans. I don't read peer reviewed studies because I rely on places like the Atlantic to summarize the most pertinent studies. If a scientist can't explain something to an Atlantic or NY Times audience, then they have failed. If you guys want to only discuss peer reviewed studies, TGR is not the place.

  7. #14132
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Find a post of mine where I criticized to the Israeli study, or any study, for not being peer reviewed? Not only that, but I was the first person here to decribe the Israeli study and discuss its limitations (without mentioning peer review.)

    Now we have better data. In case you missed it yesterday or the month before, in contrast with the observational Israeli study and contrary to your lies that people here are ignoring prior infection, the best available data comes from the UK where they are doing randomized testing at the population level.

    In an ongoing randomized trial with over 300K people involving regular testing to determine both vaccine immunity and natural immunity during Delta, mRNA vaccine immunity performs better than natural immunity.

    The blue column contains mRNA vaccinated numbers, the yellow AZ, the green column contains unvaccinated but tested positive in the past:

    Name:  E-IQ2_dVIAEX_Xw.jpg
Views: 333
Size:  136.1 KB

    The chart shows mRNA > previous infection > AZ against a low viral burden. Whereas against a high viral burden all vaccinated people had fewer symptoms when a breakthrough infection occurred compared with previous infection.

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...237v1.full.pdf
    I wasnt saying YOU personally did, but it seems if you post a non peer reviewed study, thats not the FIRST fucking thing called out, more like...oh MV cool study.....someone else posts one, That might or might not refute or disagree or provide new evidence to counter yours, its instantly called out. that, to me is amusing as fuck and quite telling to how its "my way or you're plain wrong, no matter what data you provide, you're WRONG" lol

  8. #14133
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    ^ I think you're overstating the peer review thing. People jumped on that fact because the Israeli study keeps coming up. These things take on a life of their own. After a while people get tired of saying it's an observational study and the study's own authors' describe its limitations. Not to mention more recent data from Israel has since superseded it.


    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    What are you talking about? It's not like the Atlantic is Breitbert. I can't think of any mainstream news media that has done a better and more thorough job of explaining COVID science than the Atlantic. Ed Yong won the 2021 Pulitzer for his reporting on COVID science in the Atlantic. I'm not a scientist, nor do I pretend to be, just like the vast majority of earth (and TGR). I read the Atlantic, NY Times, and TGR, which makes me more informed on this stuff than the majority of Americans. I don't read peer reviewed studies because I rely on places like the Atlantic to summarize the most pertinent studies. If a scientist can't explain something to an Atlantic or NY Times audience, then they have failed. If you guys want to only discuss peer reviewed studies, TGR is not the place.
    I thought the articles were fine but that the byline was the most important takeaway: Research can tell us only so much. The rest is a waiting game. The article was published in June and we know more now.

    We'll know more in the future. The good news is, while we may see recommendations for an additional dose due to close spacing between the first two, it doesn't look like it will become a regular thing. Most people probably don't need a boost as things stand now.

  9. #14134
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Think about it this way:

    • Vaccines train the immune system to fight a pathogen. Our immune system, not the vaccine, fights the virus.
    • Antibodies peak after an infection and then slowly decay.
    • After infection or vaccination memory B cells increase over at least six months, improve functionally, and provide cross-variant protection.
    • There does however appear to be an upper limit on the immune response. We know prior + 1 dose is better but beyond that more is not necessarily better.
    • So even though boosters increase plasma antibody levels and temporarily extend antibody protection, they have not been shown to augment the memory B and T cell responses.


    The first vaccine dose, the prime dose, activates naive T cells as well as B cells. The properties of those critical T cells change over time after priming. The boost is then meant to stimulate or train the primary memory B and T cells creating a more potent immune response. If the first vaccine injections are too close in time to each other then the second dose acts as if it's another primary dose rather than a boost.

    The main thing is there's a lot more to it than antibody levels and viral loads. Studies show the time between doses makes a big difference. So instead of worrying repetitive boosters or thinking about boosters like flu shots, think about time between doses. A booster can be though of as a training the mature immune system to induce a robust long lasting memory B & T cell secondary response.



    FWIW, this is what the latest research says offers the strongest immune response:

    • 1a. 1 dose + prior COVID provides the most robust immunity
    • 1b. Naive 2 doses with a long 16 week interval between is almost as good

    • 2a. Prior Severe Covid
    • 2b. Naive 2 doses given over a short interval ← could be an argument for +1 boost

    • c. Prior Mild Covid

    There isn't a lot of evidence yet because boosters are so new, but an additional dose could move people up into the 1a & 1b category.
    Maybe "exhaust your immune system" is not the best way to describe it. But I assume there is such a thing as too much mRNA or any vaccine? Isn't the whole point of trials, besides determining if the vaccine is actually effective, is to fine tune the dose. More than is necessary will increase the chances for side effects. That's why the clinical studies on children are testing a much smaller dose than what is given to adults. Am I wrong about this?

  10. #14135
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    No you're not wrong. While there probably isn't much harm in widely spaced boosters there are already studies showing an upper limit on what they can do.

    WRT the two big concerns in the Atlantic article 1) memory lapse and 2) Virus mutations, so far so good. The vaccines generate a good memory response and work against all the know variants.

    “A change in the spike protein- which allows the coronavirus to enter and infect human cells- that is radical enough to make our vaccine completely ineffective would also, almost certainly, be so extreme as to make the virus non-functional.” - Sarah Gilbert, Oxford Team

  11. #14136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    I wasnt saying YOU personally did, but it seems if you post a non peer reviewed study, thats not the FIRST fucking thing called out, more like...oh MV cool study.....someone else posts one, That might or might not refute or disagree or provide new evidence to counter yours, its instantly called out. that, to me is amusing as fuck and quite telling to how its "my way or you're plain wrong, no matter what data you provide, you're WRONG" lol
    Well, in your case itís because you admitted to trolling and were obviously trolling before and continue to troll, but carry on pretending to be aggrieved.

  12. #14137
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    Note that the first and only person to directly refer to MVs 'New Study' is that puerile puppy, doggiestyle?
    So no one extolled it's virtue or claimed it as proof of anything.

    w00f w00f!
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  13. #14138
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    Click on Carlís name in my sig!

    River of deceit:


    A song about addiction.
    I think our national and global relationship to the smart phone and gaming and social media has manifested as a general mass addiction, with the typical addictís inherent tendencies toward self delusion and self destruction coalescing into scattered humanitarian crises fueled by a constellation of narcissism-misinformation loops contained in self-contained, self-fulfilling insular culture-bubbles that appear like death cults in the context of their results: mass shootings, opiate crises, full ICUs. The river of deceit flows down, the only direction we go is down. Down, on down. Down, on down.
    Right on J. I thought about you while reading that quote.

  14. #14139
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    What are you talking about? It's not like the Atlantic is Breitbert. I can't think of any mainstream news media that has done a better and more thorough job of explaining COVID science than the Atlantic. Ed Yong won the 2021 Pulitzer for his reporting on COVID science in the Atlantic. I'm not a scientist, nor do I pretend to be, just like the vast majority of earth (and TGR). I read the Atlantic, NY Times, and TGR, which makes me more informed on this stuff than the majority of Americans. I don't read peer reviewed studies because I rely on places like the Atlantic to summarize the most pertinent studies. If a scientist can't explain something to an Atlantic or NY Times audience, then they have failed. If you guys want to only discuss peer reviewed studies, TGR is not the place.
    Primary sources are more accessible than they've ever been. If you need a translator so be it, but don't act like an editorial synopsis should get more consideration. The bullshit thing was kind of a joke, though, don't take it too seriously.

    In any case, would you actually conclude that more vaccine is worse than more disease, even WRT immune "overdose?" Would you rather err to the vaccine side while exposure risk remains high, even just for less over-exercise of the immune system?

  15. #14140
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    “A change in the spike protein- which allows the coronavirus to enter and infect human cells- that is radical enough to make our vaccine completely ineffective would also, almost certainly, be so extreme as to make the virus non-functional.” - Sarah Gilbert, Oxford Team
    Does "non-functional" include "lethal to the initial host" in this context?

  16. #14141
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    No, it means the virus wouldn't be capable of infecting human cells and would therefore become incapable of replicating.

  17. #14142
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    So delta=peak spike efficiency or close enough to it that any other "improvements" are still recognizable, right?

    What does that say for vaccine adjustments? No need to bother, or might as well do it because the spike should stay even more stable from here on?

  18. #14143
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
    Not according to some health officials in some places. See: Recent Presser in NSW, Aus - "Things will not ever go back to normal." Yup. Just like all the security theatre TSA still loves so much at the airports, even if we were to achieve 100% vaccination, Covid theater will also always be a thing from now on.
    Her point was that Covid exists and its unlikely to be totally eradicated anytime soon. This means we need to stay vigilant and suppress outbreaks when they arise. If that's "Covid theater" then I guess we've got Covid theater.

  19. #14144
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    So delta=peak spike efficiency or close enough to it that any other "improvements" are still recognizable, right?

    What does that say for vaccine adjustments? No need to bother, or might as well do it because the spike should stay even more stable from here on?
    Yes, Delta (so far) is peak replicability. The issue with Delta is its kinetics, not its ability to escape the vaccine. After antibodies wane it takes 3-to-5 days for B cells to make more and during that time Delta is replicating like a mutha-fk'r. In spite of that, it's like a 10% drop in efficacy which means a vaccine trained immune system still wins but it's against a tougher opponent.

    Delta's kinetics explains why some people have rough go of it when they experience a breakthrough infection and why older or immunocompromised people need circulating antibodies rather than depending on their immune memory response.

    Even though he says the vaccines work against Delta, the computational biolgist Trevor Bedford thinks we should make vaccine adjustments tailored to Delta because any future strains capable of reducing vaccine efficacy even more will likely emerge from a Delta sublineage. Any vaccine adjustments would probably leave the spike protein elements intact and then add additional components targeted at other parts of the virus.

  20. #14145
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    Her point was that Covid exists and its unlikely to be totally eradicated anytime soon. This means we need to stay vigilant and suppress outbreaks when they arise. If that's "Covid theater" then I guess we've got Covid theater.
    It's also not theatre when the measures instituted demonstrably reduce the spread of Covid, or at least the effects. But some people are just contrarian fucktards that refuse to admit the sky is ever blue.
    They got a name for the winners in the world

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  21. #14146
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Even though he says the vaccines work against Delta, Trevor Bedford thinks we should make vaccine adjustments tailored to Delta because any future strains capable of reducing vaccine efficacy even more will likely emerge from a Delta sublineage. Any vaccine adjustments would probably leave the spike protein elements intact and then add additional components targeted at other parts of the virus.
    I thought Mofro said similar a while back in here. Would an adjustment mean a new set of trials or is it realistic to think this could be streamlined?

  22. #14147
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    My understanding is trials would still be necessary to test efficacy but would be more streamlined because regulators would be less concerned about safety. I hate to make an influenza shot comparison b/c it's not the same thing but we can sort of think about it like that in terms of safety.

  23. #14148
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    Quote Originally Posted by ml242 View Post
    It's also not theatre when the measures instituted demonstrably reduce the spread of Covid, or at least the effects. But some people are just contrarian fucktards that refuse to admit the sky is ever blue.
    closed schools where such a theatre
    and closed boarders are such a theatre
    and people in icu with a cough such a theatre
    LIVE IS NOT A CHAIRLIFT

  24. #14149
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    No. Covid theatre is politicians, hanging out with others without masking or distancing, but then busting out the masks for the photo op, then once they think the cameras are gone, taking them back off. THAT'S "Covid theatre."




    And this one. Cameras off:


    Cameras on:

  25. #14150
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
    No. Covid theatre is politicians, hanging out with others without masking or distancing, but then busting out the masks for the photo op, then once they think the cameras are gone, taking them back off. THAT'S "Covid theatre."




    And this one. Cameras off:


    Cameras on:
    If everyone was vaccinated we could all do that outdoors unmasked and spread out a little like that. I have it on good authority that they are all vaccinated.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

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