To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[bennymac]

‘Natural Immunity’ From Covid Is Not Safer Than a Vaccine

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/h...e=articleShare

“ As many as one in three people who recover from Covid have chronic complaints, including exhaustion and a racing heart, for months afterward. This includes people under 35 with no previous health conditions. Some survivors of Covid also show troubling signs that their body has turned on itself, with symptoms similar to those of lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.

Covid vaccines, in contrast, carry little known risk. They have been tested in tens of thousands of people with no serious side effects — at least so far. “Once you start vaccinating millions, you might find very, very rare events,” Dr. Hanage said. “But we have to know that they are very, very rare and much more rare than the adverse events associated with natural infection.”

[Garth Bimble]

Yes, employers can definitely require a vaccine as a condition of employment. You are free to get another job if you don't like it. As for the gov't, it doesn't seem like they can require it for everyone, and I haven't seen anything that indicates a desire to do so. But vaccines are already required for kids to go to public school in most places, so this will probably be another one on the list.
And I would suspect most hospitals will require vaccines. But I did see an article that mentioned a survey of FDNY firefighters, over 50% aren't planning on taking it. And these are the people that saw all the shit hitting the fan first hand a while back. I'm kinda surprised they are being given an option, so maybe it's just gonna come down to whoever is calling the shots for any particular organization.
And anyone that thinks the thinking on this boils down to left vs. right, or anti-vaxxer vs. enlightened, is a fucking dumbass. I'm all for vaccines that have been thoroughly tested, and used for decades, with proven safety records. These vaccines are none of those.

I think they might require it eventually but any entity that is subject to civil liability would be crazy to do so at this point.

Many hospitals still don't require their employees get flu shots. Their are strict regulations for those who don't but it's still an option.

[funkendrenchman]

i actually agree with you, but just for fun. Explain it to me.

If you are vaccinated, you wear a mask, you wash your hands, Why woulld you give two shits about someone else not getting vaccinated?

How is it your problem or any of your business?

Well first off, vaccines aren’t 100% effective. So it’s always possible that you can still get sick. Second, other people are still getting sick and dying. They’re endangering everyone including HCW. They’re also using resources that could be used to treat other non-preventable conditions. Third, the quicker everyone gets vaccinated, the quicker we can get back to whatever normal is. This has a huge economic impact. As someone else said - it’s public health, not “me health.”

[DeathRaven]

My body, my choice?

[Flounder]

TL;DR - I'm getting the vaccine when it's available due to my experience with modern biological medicine.

I'm going to get the vaccine as soon as I can. Being immuno compromised I hope that is sooner rather than later. While I'm concerned about side effects and effectiveness I'm also astounded by modern medicine. Comparing what is going on today to the polio vaccine from 65 years ago is night and day.

After over a decade of dealing with a chronic disease my life was changed a year ago with a new biological drug. It still blows my mind that scientists were able to develop a protein that I can inject in my stomach every 2 months. This protein goes directly to interleukin 5 receptors on eosinophils. It binds to that receptor and prevents the eosinophil from signaling for the nutrients it needs to survive, thus eliminating the eosinophils. Prior to this drug I had to use prednisone and cellcept to depress my entire immune system and those had major side effects. No side effects at all with the Fasenra.

I like to think I'm a relatively intelligent person but the level of science involved makes my brain hurt. Yes, this vaccine has been done incredibly fast but the research on how mRNA works has been going on for years. As I understand it the mRNA creates the spike protein that's on the surface of Covid allowing our bodies to build immunity. It's very targeted and specific. Much different than past vaccines.

[glademaster]

I'm going to refrain from commenting on the thoughts others have shared in this thread. For once, I'll heed the advice "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

To add a data point to the mix, I'm considered a "frontline" worker (i.e. not in healthcare, but in a field that is considered essential and a line of work that cannot be performed remotely), and as a result anticipate that I will be able to get vaccinated relatively early. I will be getting shot up as soon as the option is presented to me, as I fear both contracting and spreading COVID.

The greatest good for the greatest number.

[concretejungle]

Why not?

Curious about this myself. I’m in the “if Fauci takes it, I’ll take it” camp.
But there’s also enough time before I can get to front of the line for the vax, there’s time to pivot in the unlikely event a problem comes up.

For context, my sister ended up with polio from the bad batches of vaccine. And she’s ready to get the Covid vax.

Not trying to call you out, just interested in the hesitation

Oh, I didn't mean my hand wasn't as high to receive the vaccine. I checked my place using the NY Times link in another thread and 4/5ths of my state is in front of me. If I could get it sooner I would. I'm healthy and apparently not old but the long term ramifications of having Covid is what concerns me. That and my partner and her kid are high risk and although we do our damndest to keep potential exposure low our children are in school and I hope that this helps keep them in person and it's been really tough on my daughter and although this will have a profound impact on her childhood I'd like to get back to some semblance of normalcy asap

My hand was lower in a tongue in cheek way that I'm not so sure I hope more of my country(wo)men survive. I understand people who are hesitant to get the vaccine but I do not understand the part of our country that thinks this is no worse than the flu and that there are people who die of Covid were close to death and as such should take one for our economy.

[The AD]

I can't believe I need to remind you that these vaccines are on the verge of emergency authorization (different from the standard approval that won't happen for some time), and we still don't know if they will, in fact, prevent people from transmitting the virus.

Testing strongly indicates they will, though.

And sorry I got a little bit worked up there, but it drives me nuts that people still aren't thinking about the ramifications to the population at large. Your decision on whether or not to get vaccinated needs to consider this. Yes, ultimately it's your decision whether or not to get vaccinated, but I hope everyone is considering the big picture.

[MiddleOfNight]

I can get it soon - frontline worker. And I will. Pros outweigh the cons. Socially and personally.
I'm not too well versed, but I echo the concern re unknown risk of long term lung/heart damage. I don't like getting sick, or getting other people sick. If I don't get vaccinated when I have the chance, I could unknowingly transmit to someone waiting at the bottom of the list and hurt/kill them or their family in the meantime. That feels wrong to me.
I agree, with so many people not wanting to get it businesses might be able to say 'no vaccine? no fly, no visa, no entry, no service, etc' .. and with the social pressure surrounding the issue, that seems likely.
Selfishly I want to visit Babushka. I want to travel, see my friends, go to the gym, have a drink at a bar. I want our economy to recover, and see people back to work.
I could either just complain, or do something about it. If you have a chance to do something to help and you choose not to, you should lose your right to gripe about it.

[DJSapp]

Good enough for 92 year old Mona.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.che...e-19418148.amp

Bunch of cowards here. Let mommy and daddy break trail for you one more time before you kill them by prolonging this pandemic.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[Yonder_River]

Looks like he raised his kids to be equally kooky...


I hope she fails PA school. Seriously. OP is a Dr. of internet medicine but his kid girl is actually going to real school for real medicine and that's what she believes? Scary.

Seriously. Kookiness and ignorance run in families. You'd be surprised by some of the behavior by healthcare workers which shouldn't jive with their "knowledge".

But to answer op's question. Hell yes you should get it. The worst symptoms are headache and fatigue for one day after the second shot. My wife will hopefully be getting one in the next month and is counting the days.

[frorider]

As cases of Covid-19 continue to rise across the country, a poll of firefighters in the Fire Department of New York City (FDNY) found that nearly 55% of respondents would not get a Covid-19 vaccine if offered by the department, their union president told CNN Monday.

Despite research that shows firefighters were 15 times more likely to be infected, a majority of those who took the poll declined the offer of a vaccine.

As I’ve posted several times, hell yes I’ll get the vaccine. I’m at the bottom of the list so it’ll be a while.

[Woodsy]

You'd be surprised by some of the behavior by healthcare workers which shouldn't jive with their "knowledge".

.

My parents used to live across from LDS hospital in the early 2000s. I was always amazed at the number of doctors and nurses outside smoking.

[GoldMember]

Testing strongly indicates they will, though.

And sorry I got a little bit worked up there, but it drives me nuts that people still aren't thinking about the ramifications to the population at large. Your decision on whether or not to get vaccinated needs to consider this. Yes, ultimately it's your decision whether or not to get vaccinated, but I hope everyone is considering the big picture.

That's a very idealistic thought... The big picture for most is what's in it for them. That said, I plan to get the vaccine as soon as I'm able. It may be awhile since I'm not in the queue for it right away but I'll take it as soon as I can. I want to get my life back, go to restaurants, be social with our friends, etc. Until we get the majority of people on board and get to a point of herd immunity, we'll be wearing masks, limited numbers of people gathering, and other limits that have come about as a result of this. I told a bunch of our friends that we'll have a Vaccinated Party, once we're there. Without getting herd immunity and getting this behind us, we're going to be living lives of limitations that are more about existing than living. That's not the desired outcome.

[The AD]

That's a very idealistic thought... The big picture for most is what's in it for them. That said, I plan to get the vaccine as soon as I'm able. It may be awhile since I'm not in the queue for it right away but I'll take it as soon as I can. I want to get my life back, go to restaurants, be social with our friends, etc. Until we get the majority of people on board and get to a point of herd immunity, we'll be wearing masks, limited numbers of people gathering, and other limits that have come about as a result of this. I told a bunch of our friends that we'll have a Vaccinated Party, once we're there. Without getting herd immunity and getting this behind us, we're going to be living lives of limitations that are more about existing than living. That's not the desired outcome.

Right, this should be the carrot. Everyone benefits from mass vaccination.

[rideit]

So, does anyone know the status of ‘recovered’ individuals in terms of receiving the vaccine?
Last on the list?
Just curious how that is going to look.

[DJSapp]

So, does anyone know the status of ‘recovered’ individuals in terms of receiving the vaccine?
Last on the list?
Just curious how that is going to look.

LOL you think the Trump admin has a plan for distribution? Look to the UK, we'll probably copy whatever they do.

[billyk]

I can't believe I need to remind you that these vaccines are on the verge of emergency authorization (different from the standard approval that won't happen for some time), and we still don't know if they will, in fact, prevent people from transmitting the virus. If we don't even know that yet, what else do we not know. I can't believe this needs to be explained at this point for fuck's sake.

Testing strongly indicates they will, though.

It seems likely to me that vaccination will prevent people from transmitting the COVID. However, I have seen statements from Fauci that backs up what mmm...pow said. We don’t have proof that that is the case yet, and won’t until more long term studies are run. All we know now is that the vaccines will trigger the production of antibodies, and reduce the likelihood that someone will get sick, but doesn’t rule out that a person could get exposed to the virus and then pass it on by asymptomatic transmission.

At any rate, I’m getting the vaccine as soon as it is available to me. Certainly seems a lot better than nothing.

[Mofro261]

My parents used to live across from LDS hospital in the early 2000s. I was always amazed at the number of doctors and nurses outside smoking.

Smokers outside the hospital doors, you say?



The saddest thing I've ever seen.

[AdironRider]

So, does anyone know the status of ‘recovered’ individuals in terms of receiving the vaccine?
Last on the list?
Just curious how that is going to look.

I would think those who have already had Covid would be towards the end of the list. The vaccine isn't going to give you more immunity than you already have. At least until a booster is required (if at all).

[billyk]

My parents used to live across from LDS hospital in the early 2000s. I was always amazed at the number of doctors and nurses outside smoking.

Nicotine is a tough bitch to beat, even when you know better. Took me many tries before I was able to break free. One of the best things I was able to do in my life. My brother and my mother were never able to kick the habit.

[rideit]

I would think those who have already had Covid would be towards the end of the list. The vaccine isn't going to give you more immunity than you already have. At least until a booster is required (if at all).

I kind of figured as much, and that is fine. I just thought that it was worth some conversation, as there are (rare) reports of reinfection.

[AdironRider]

Totally, I am interested as well in terms of the long term effects (as in how long it works), and is this going to be a new vaccine that requires taking it regularly.

[jono]

Fuck thy neighbor, the whole idea should have been to protect YOURSELF from the get-go.

Well, sure, and knowing that in this case protecting YOURSELF is best accomplished if we all protect each other should have been the whole idea from the get-go, too. But the crux move in achieving enlightened self-interest has never been the self-interest.

[jono]

I kind of figured as much, and that is fine. I just thought that it was worth some conversation, as there are (rare) reports of reinfection.

Rare is relative. Could be a little less rare than the vaccine not working (discussed a few pages ago in the main thread).