To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

**Mazderati** · 08-23-2021, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by dunfree

As that article suggests it’s more the broader “faith community” than actual pastors or religion against the vaccine.

I mean that's just pedantry isn't it? Where does the line between faith community, religion, church, or whatever start and end? All those people identify as believers of some sort and look to their churches for guidance and leadership which in many cases isn't happening. Or, is happening in the wrong direction. Tony Spell is a name if that makes the difference.

**Mazderati** · 08-23-2021, 07:08 PM

People have been saying for years we need to listen more and talk more and reason more and here we are 630k dead people later. Listening to someone punch you in the mouth repeatedly isn't going to stop the punching.

**wooley12** · 08-23-2021, 07:10 PM

From what I'm seeing and hearing on the Momma Bear Maskhole FB page I am a member of, school offices here in WA will need to somehow process a goodly number of bogus and/or incomplete Religious Exemption forms.

This is a total lack of gov'ts ability to SELL an idea IMO. The synonym for Advertising is Propaganda. We need more cartoons like the "Joe the Camel", "Duck and Cover" turtle or X Men in the messaging. They proved you can get people to change their habits and buy into ideas.

A lot of the guys watching this didn't know what a germ was but they knew they were smarter than a cartoon fk up. So they learned what to do from him by not being him.

**old goat** · 08-23-2021, 07:16 PM

If nothing else the debate about the "religious exemption" lays bare they hypocrisy and delusion of religion and the way people use "religious belief" to justify their prejudice and sense of entitlement.

**dunfree** · 08-23-2021, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Mazderati

I mean that's just pedantry isn't it? Where does the line between faith community, religion, church, or whatever start and end? All those people identify as believers of some sort and look to their churches for guidance and leadership which in many cases isn't happening. Or, is happening in the wrong direction. Tony Spell is a name if that makes the difference.

Churches are nominally apolitical. The broader “faith community” I.e. assholes like Dave Ramsey, aren’t apolitical.

**schuss** · 08-23-2021, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Carl_Mega

I literally listed 3 attempts:

education/facts

empathy

nego on restrictions and policy

So...come again?

All of these ave been tried. Hell, even Trump told people to get vaxxed and they boo'd him.

**highangle** · 08-23-2021, 07:43 PM

Mississippi health officials are pleading with residents not to take a medicine meant for cows and horses as an alternative to getting the COVID-19 vaccine.

In a state with the nation's second lowest rate of vaccination against the coronavirus, a jump in the number of calls to poison control prompted an alert Friday from the Mississippi State Department of Health about ingesting the drug ivermectin. The department said that at least 70% of recent calls to the state poison control center were related to people who ingested a version of the drug that is formulated to treat parasites in cows and horses.

Ingesting the drug can lead to a rash, nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, neurologic disorders and potentially severe hepatitis requiring hospitalization, according to the alert written by Dr. Paul Byers, the state's top epidemiologist.

Byers said that 85% of the people calling after using ivermectin had mild symptoms, but at least one person has been hospitalized due to ivermectin toxicity, according to the Mississippi Free Press.

The FDA is also urging people to stop

Ivermectin is sometimes prescribed to people for head lice or skin conditions, but the formulas are different for humans and animals.
"Animal drugs are highly concentrated for large animals and can be highly toxic in humans," Byers wrote in the alert.

Given that cows and horses can easily weigh more than 1,000 pounds, and sometimes more than a ton, the amount of ivermectin meant for livestock would not be suitable for a human who weighs a fraction of that.

The Food and Drug Administration has also weighed in, writing in a tweet this weekend, "You are not a horse. You are not a cow. Seriously, y'all. Stop it."

You are not a horse. You are not a cow. Seriously, y'all. Stop it. https://t.co/TWb75xYEY4
— U.S. FDA (@US_FDA) August 21, 2021

The tweet included a link to information about the approved uses of ivermectin, and why it should not be taken for COVID-19 prevention or treatment. The FDA has also warned about the differences in ivermectin formulated for animals and humans, noting that inactive ingredients in the formula meant for animals could cause problems in humans.

"Many inactive ingredients found in animal products aren't evaluated for use in people," the statement from the agency said. "Or they are included in much greater quantity than those used in people. In some cases, we don't know how those inactive ingredients will affect how ivermectin is absorbed in the human body."

Health officials urge vaccines as a proven prevention method

The FDA has not approved ivermectin to prevent or treat COVID-19, but the vaccines have been proven to reduce the risk of serious illness or death dramatically. On Monday, Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine became the first to receive full approval from the FDA. ...

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/23/10302...misinformation

**CarlMega** · 08-23-2021, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by schuss

All of these ave been tried. Hell, even Trump told people to get vaxxed and they boo'd him.

100% agree. And more! Despite 630K of their fellow citizens dead and more likely to succumb, their opinions are not going to change. It has transcended difference of opinion - this is something more sinister. Along the lines of wanting to see people hurt or never allow a 'win' by their perceived political enemy no matter the cost.

That's my resistance to even more concessions. At some point, capitulating is just confirming that bad-faith actions will get you results. COVID is terrible, but I expect the next crisis to be worse as the trial run on disinformation and tribal rallying will have already been tested and the practice honed..

**The AD** · 08-23-2021, 07:54 PM

Comic Sans? Come on, man!

**bobz** · 08-23-2021, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Carl_Mega

I'll submit this: no one is yelling at these morans. If there's a public meltdown happening, you better believe it's the 'muh rights' crowd getting loud. Or threatening. At worst, most of us are venting to like minded people, mostly civilly...bitching online...pondering if there's a policy or enticement that might move the needle.

THIS. Me not coddling the "fuck your feelings" crowd enough isn't the problem here.

**mcski** · 08-23-2021, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by jono

Sorry, that was more of a reference to the fact that no one is freaking on our side--because no one is trying to communicate with these people. One on one.

Sorry dude, this is a crock of shit. I among many have been talking with these people for a long time. Guess what? You can’t reason w cult members. Lutz got through after some heavy lifting and wheeling out some big hitters. Most of the time you don’t get anything close to a good faith discussion w these fucknuts. It’s just one crazy ass soundbyte after another. So, no the answer is not just moar listening and hand holding these toddlers.

**jono** · 08-23-2021, 09:15 PM

Like I said, these people will be remembered as enemy collaborators. For a long time. So there's probably no "the answer," and I certainly didn't suggest there was. But false dichotomy isn't exclusive to them, either.

Actually, no offense, but I'm going to use that on a couple of them. I did say I was looking for new ideas. Thanks! I'll update if it works.

I'm not chastising anyone for venting, either. I do plenty of it. Given our vax rates this is probably a nice safe space where no one will even be offended. But it's not satisfying, as we all know. I need a little variety or something.

**Nobody Famous** · 08-23-2021, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by The AD

I'm guessing the vast majority of the unvaccinated in healthcare would choose to get the shots over losing their jobs. Maslow's Hierarchy, etc.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Haven't seen that mentioned in 30+ years since time spent around the military and the organizational psychologist types who would often refer to it.

**bodywhomper** · 08-23-2021, 10:15 PM

Here’s the fiasco at our regional high school I’m glad this was civil. The protest was organized by a woman that lives in Sandpoint.

The best part of this is that the testing clinic resulting in some unvaxed kids getting vaxed.

**teledad** · 08-23-2021, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by bodywhomper

Here’s the fiasco at our regional high school

From the article:

some of the concerns expressed by the group included not wanting their students to be tested for COVID-19 using a nasal test; that unvaccinated students were being singled out as the district did not require vaccinated students to be tested; and that some were under the false impression that testing was being required once or even twice per week.

As a parent whose kids were tested 1-2 times per week all last year, WTF. Does the nasal swab have the 5G microchip too? Would they have a problem with a school nurse taking their kid's temperature to see if they have a fever?

**The AD** · 08-23-2021, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by teledad

As a parent whose kids were tested 1-2 times per week all last year, WTF. Does the nasal swab have the 5G microchip too? Would they have a problem with a school nurse taking their kid's temperature to see if they have a fever?

Lib indoctrination swabs, obviously.

**bodywhomper** · 08-23-2021, 11:03 PM

It’s super cray-cray. The woman in Sandpoint, used to be an RN.

**rideit** · 08-23-2021, 11:04 PM

It honestly boils down to:

If we acknowledge Covid as a disease, and get vaxxed now, we might as well accept defeat to the libs and educated ‘elites’”.

It is THAT shallow.

**skiJ** · 08-23-2021, 11:17 PM

there is some good discussion in these last couple pages - Thank you...

I want to try to follow-up on a couple of thoughts and ideas -
I have not heard it expressed as 'one-to-one' , and I believe it is the only chance to change some minds - And
I believe some will not be persuaded - ever.
' there is just no reasoning with some people... '

I have been involved in public health on some level for forty years and sixty years... and
the way this was presented by our former president, I have wanted nothing to do with it - I embraced isolation And am the poorer for it.

religious exemption -
please review the statement up thread that is attributed to the Christian Scientists -
nowhere does it say 'we support vaccination. '
Instead it mentions 'individual decision' and 'complying with the law' ( But it does not say what law. )
there are churches where the words of the (leader) IS "the law" .
call it hypocracy and ... And this country was founded on religious freedom - separation of church and 'State (meaning Government. and the Right to practice one's religion WithOut Government (interference) ).

there are a couple of comments up-thread about the ease with which one can establish a 'church' , and
an idea that church is apolitical --
the first I have seen ;
the idea that churches are apolitical is an ideal, and could not be more contrary to my experience, Especially over the last twenty-five years. ...

ah - I'm sorry - but If we are going to start by calling others "toddler generation" based on their belief which do not align with our own, we have no audience and will never persuade them. (Period. ) name-calling is not persuasive .

If given the opportunity, I will approach a conversation by asking,
' What would change (their) mind ? '

for many, the answer is currently,
' nothing. '

to which my response will be,
' I hope someday (they) will change their mind... '

finally, 'keeping the peace' means only not escalating an emotional, potentially violent situation -
Remember January sixth 2021.
people died at the Capitol, trying to defend others
( there were threats against the vice-president ( who sits with the Senate )) -
IF there is a thoughtful discussion to be had, historically I am eager to defend an underdog...

Thank you - I appreciate the conversation...
for those of you who are being put at-Risk on a daily basis or who have Family members living with Risk factors like compromised immune systems,,, You have my empathy !
we need to do better as a society and a species !

thanks, maggs...
This place /// I love this place.

... there is just no reasoning with some people. . .

tj

**twat** · 08-24-2021, 02:01 AM

so guys i need your help,
I have to talk with a vaxx hesitent / sceptical person
what would be a couple of points to mention to get his attention and convince him to get the shot

i am not a doctor just a skibum talking to a skibum

thx alot forum

**Casey E** · 08-24-2021, 04:56 AM

I almost convinced an esoteric gym teacher/acupuncturist/tai chi pro , who had met aliens, to vax over several conversations. I told him to “be part of the solution, not the problem”, “if not for yourself, for your loved ones”, and simply “do the right thing”, besides some science, but he remained hesitant When the Chilean “mobility pass” came into effect a few months ago, providing new liberties for the fully vaxed, he finally caved in. At this point, that is your only hope, the carrot of “normal” living. You can only ski in Chile if you have one.

**schuss** · 08-24-2021, 05:14 AM

Lots of people have tried the one on one engagement. It's literally impossible as they have endless amounts of bullshit pseudoscience links and an echo chamber that supports them. I've tried with a few coworkers and it was a fool's errand. What pissed me off is they continually try to recruit more people into antivax stuff but start loudly complaining any time you declare how much safer you feel with the vaccine. That's why I call this group toddlers - they want to have their cake and eat it too, with mass double standards on behavior.

If you're truly talking with a vax hesitant, start with why - why do they feel hesitant? Some good go tos are things like infection and death rate in the past few weeks between vaxxed/unvaxxed for a risk perspective and saying " I value you as a friend and don't want to see you get sick or die if I can do anything about it" can often drive the point home. Also that hundreds of millions have safely taken it.

**huckbucket** · 08-24-2021, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by schuss

Lots of people have tried the one on one engagement. It's literally impossible as they have endless amounts of bullshit pseudoscience links and an echo chamber that supports them. I've tried with a few coworkers and it was a fool's errand. What pissed me off is they continually try to recruit more people into antivax stuff but start loudly complaining any time you declare how much safer you feel with the vaccine. That's why I call this group toddlers - they want to have their cake and eat it too, with mass double standards on behavior.

If you're truly talking with a vax hesitant, start with why - why do they feel hesitant? Some good go tos are things like infection and death rate in the past few weeks between vaxxed/unvaxxed for a risk perspective and saying " I value you as a friend and don't want to see you get sick or die if I can do anything about it" can often drive the point home. Also that hundreds of millions have safely taken it.

Every day almost 1MM people here in the US get one of the vaccine shots. We've been doing this since last Dec. That's a lot of shots and a lot of data. I'm very confident that we have a good handle on the 6-mo safety profile for the mRNA vaccines.

**jono** · 08-24-2021, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by huckbucket

Every day almost 1MM people here in the US get one of the vaccine shots. We've been doing this since last Dec. That's a lot of shots and a lot of data. I'm very confident that we have a good handle on the 6-mo safety profile for the mRNA vaccines.

That's actually one of the objections I hear lately: they're suppressing side effects and deaths because the system requires voluntary reporting. There must be a simple way to address that, right?

**yeahman** · 08-24-2021, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by nordekette

so guys i need your help,
I have to talk with a vaxx hesitent / sceptical person
what would be a couple of points to mention to get his attention and convince him to get the shot

i am not a doctor just a skibum talking to a skibum

thx alot forum

Just tell him to talk to his doctor and do what he/she recommends. If Luntz is correct that 95 percent of doctors have gotten the shot, odds are the doc will recommend it.

Any other form of persuasion is largely meaningless to these folks, and personally I'm not interested in spending the time. I actually don't have any close friends or family who are anti vax anyway. Lucky I guess.