Touring outer layer with new tech: highly breathable hardshells vs hybrid softshells

[lepistoir]

I haven't bought new outerwear in ten years because my Patagonia bc touring pants and hybrid softshell jacket have worked so damn well. They are now close to the end of their life cycles and I'm looking around for replacements. Doesn't seem like folx offer a similar jacket any longer with the key features that make love mine so much:
-softshell of tightly-woven fabric that blocks wind and breathes very well without a membrane.
-waterproof panels on yoke, hood, sleeves for squalls rolling through
-huge drop-in pockets inside for skins while descending

Obviously, this is a light jacket that I don't use (or get wet using) on storm days. And I often simply throw a puffy on over the top at transitions, which sometimes just stays on for the descent.

Nowadays, it seems like everbuddy from OR to Arcteryx to Patagonia are pushing their 20K/20K shells for touring. I would love to stick with hybrid, but nowadays they only seem available with some kind of lining (which sucks because it's too warm, the lamination kills breathability, and heavy). So, before I give in, what does the collective think about the highly breathable shells for west coast touring (mild, sometimes fierce wind, wet snow even in day-after showers)? Are there still lightweight hybrid shells with bucket pockets that don't use a membrane or laminated lining in the body but effectively block wind?

[I've seen black diamonds!]

https://www.norrona.com/en-GB/produc...wcB&color=1108

[lepistoir]

https://www.norrona.com/en-GB/produc...wcB&color=1108

Gracias.
Still curious about appropriateness of 20K+ hard shells for west coast touring


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[stealurface831]

check out the alpha comp line from Arc'. they don't make it anymore but they have plenty of pieces on their used gear site.

[snowaddict91]

I have the flylow intuitive perm hardshell stuff. I'm a heavy sweater and I typically have a hard time skinning in anything with a membrane. I've tried wearing the jacket on the up and it definitely doesn't breath enough (for me).

[lepistoir]

I have the flylow intuitive perm hardshell stuff. I'm a heavy sweater and I typically have a hard time skinning in anything with a membrane. I've tried wearing the jacket on the up and it definitely doesn't breath enough (for me).

That sounds like exactly the info I'm looking for. Thanks. Doesn't seem like membranes work very well in more mild+humid regions for sweaty bastards like us. I will skin without the jacket when it's nice out but like to be able to wear it during showery weather or when the wind is chilling but without turning into a steam bath.

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[sruffian]

x2

Hardshells are just not the right tool out here unless it's dumping. I sweat like a pig in a hardshell, even 20k/20k, etc

I wear softshells probably 90% of the time i'm touring. i'm in a 6ish year old patagonia guide softshell and it works fine. if i apply dwr once a year, i can wear it even in storms if it's cold. it's only when it's borderline raining (more and more common at tahoe and trips like crater lake, etc) that the hardshell comes out

[Andyski]

check out the alpha comp line from Arc'. they don't make it anymore but they have plenty of pieces on their used gear site.

Definitely this. I've got the jacket and it's the best touring jacket I've owned. Never take it off all day except frigid or slow days to put a puffy under it. Wide temp range, has the big bucket/mesh pockets (can get skins for Protests in there), and nice big front zip/pockets that help vent even more if needed.

Huge fan of the hybrid stuff. Have hybrid bibs (BD - don't make them anymore) and pants (super old Patag super guide).

BD has a new hybrid jacket that looks a bit gimmicky but at least it's something.

Dynafit had the Chugach jacket which is windstopper and soft-shell that looked pretty sweet and can be found on clearance. They also have the Beast Hybrid which is waterproof/softshell hybrid. No idea if either has the legit skin pockets.

[kootenayskier]

I’m a long time (Patagonia Ascencionist softshell and Knifeblade pullover were favourites ) softshell user currently using the Dynafit Mercury Pro jacket (and pants) for all my ski touring. It’s very breathable, with pit zips (that I never need), large pockets (not drop in) that’ll fit skins, a hood that fits over my helmet, and is weatherproof enough for anything but rain. The Norronna Lyngen Hybrid also looks sweet.

[sierraskier]

Highly breathable waterproof hardshell is an oxymoron. Granted I haven't tried a ton of stuff but I have yet to find anything better than Pattaguch nano-air hoody for touring. It's relatively water resistant, insulative but yet still breaths very very well. It's crazy, there is nothing like it. I wear it with a single layer beneath in anything from relatively warm temps (near freezing) to single digits and blowing snow. I just adjust the baselayer: athletic t-shirt, long sleeved crew, smartwool merino baselayer, etc. I use the Arcteryx Alpha FL on top as a shell once at top, which is about the lightest weight / most minimalist shell, that is still waterprooof, I can find. The only other thing piece I would consider is probably the R1 tech face.

[davjr96]

Checkout Rabs new Khroma line. I have a pair of the "tour" (full softshell) pants on order. I've been super happy with my sharpend pants (pertex pro) for mid Winter tours and inbounds but wanted something more breathable for warmer days. They have GTX, Hybrid, and full softshell in that line.

[cat in january]

I have a dynafit jacket (think it is the beast) that meets your needs that I got off eBay cheap a couple years back. Membrane shoulders top of arms, breathable everywhere else. Big drop pockets for skins. Can not imagine using full membrane touring 95% of the time

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I'm still rocking a Patagonia Ascensionist as well, but most days I use nothing but a base layer, a 4oz. windbreaker, and some sort of breathable insulation i can throw over the top as needed. I have pretty much no use for a hardshell. I've never use a hybrid piece, but if I skied in CA I'd probably look for the the lightest (least warm) one I could find.

[jacob_dbu]

I feel like all the good hybrid stuff is only made by European companies now, which for some reason is hard to get in the states (Norrona, Mammut, Dynafit, etc.)

[lepistoir]

Highly breathable waterproof hardshell is an oxymoron. Granted I haven't tried a ton of stuff but I have yet to find anything better than Pattaguch nano-air hoody for touring. It's relatively water resistant, insulative but yet still breaths very very well. It's crazy, there is nothing like it. I wear it with a single layer beneath in anything from relatively warm temps (near freezing) to single digits and blowing snow. I just adjust the baselayer: athletic t-shirt, long sleeved crew, smartwool merino baselayer, etc. I use the Arcteryx Alpha FL on top as a shell once at top, which is about the lightest weight / most minimalist shell, that is still waterprooof, I can find. The only other thing piece I would consider is probably the R1 tech face.

Yeah, anything with a membrane is just not the kind of breathable I'm talking about. I have a ferrosi hoody too, for skinning when there's a bit of wind. Puffy on at the top and skiing down. The Norrona "hybrid" still has a membrane -just not a WB one. Dealbreaker. No membrane, no lamination or lining, just block wind and a few flakes or chest shots.

Checkout Rabs new Khroma line. I have a pair of the "tour" (full softshell) pants on order. I've been super happy with my sharpend pants (pertex pro) for mid Winter tours and inbounds but wanted something more breathable for warmer days. They have GTX, Hybrid, and full softshell in that line.

Again, no membrane. Technically "breathable" is not breathable like I'm talking about. Windblocking or highly-resistant, water resistant via DWR and/or WB panels in topside locations. I haven't heard anybuddy who has skied between Tahoe and Bend say anything approving of these supposedly breathable 20K shells.

I know I said jacket, but any fans of OR trailbreaker pants?

[bean]

I'm still rocking a Patagonia Ascensionist as well, but most days I use nothing but a base layer, a 4oz. windbreaker, and some sort of breathable insulation i can throw over the top as needed. I have pretty much no use for a hardshell. I've never use a hybrid piece, but if I skied in CA I'd probably look for the the lightest (least warm) one I could find.

Ditto, baselayer, windshirt, and an atom LT hoody is all I use most days, I usually don't even bring a hardshell along.

[kootenayskier]

If it isn’t precipitating, then any softshell, windshell, hard fleece will work well enough. The challenge for me is always how to stay dry during high intensity effort (breaking trail in deep fresh snow) while it’s snowing hard at moderate (minus 5 - minus 10C) temperatures. In a good year I’ll get at least 30 days touring in these conditions (following an existing trail or in colder temps is a different story). No hard shell breathes well enough (even a hybrid like the Patagonia Mixed Guide didn’t work for me) and most of the more breathable alternatives wet out. I focus on a breathable layer that as much as possible repels and won’t hold water, which is a function of its both its DWR and the mechanical properties (smooth and tight) of the fabric. I’m a relatively light sweater, and with just a Merino base layer (with a shelled and insulated jacket for the changeovers and descents) I find I can stay acceptably dry during full days of touring in the snowiest of conditions. The Patagonia Knifeblade was my all time top performer (though the membrane wasn’t durable) with my current Mercury Pro a close second.

[snowaddict91]

If it isn’t precipitating, then any softshell, windshell, hard fleece will work well enough. The challenge for me is always how to stay dry during high intensity effort (breaking trail in deep fresh snow) while it’s snowing hard at moderate (minus 5 - minus 10C) temperatures. In a good year I’ll get at least 30 days touring in these conditions (following an existing trail or in colder temps is a different story). No hard shell breathes well enough (even a hybrid like the Patagonia Mixed Guide didn’t work for me) and most of the more breathable alternatives wet out. I focus on a breathable layer that as much as possible repels and won’t hold water, which is a function of its both its DWR and the mechanical properties (smooth and tight) of the fabric. I’m a relatively light sweater, and with just a Merino base layer (with a shelled and insulated jacket for the changeovers and descents) I find I can stay acceptably dry during full days of touring in the snowiest of conditions. The Patagonia Knifeblade was my all time top performer (though the membrane wasn’t durable) with my current Mercury Pro a close second.

This is a challenge for me as well. If I wear something waterproof that won't wet out, I find I'm usually just as wet from sweat than if I had just skipped the waterproof layer all together.

I used to mostly just resort ski when it was storming, but that has changed the last few years, probably for good.

[stealurface831]

Ditto, baselayer, windshirt, and an atom LT hoody is all I use most days

I used the Atom LT for two seasons but found that it didn't breathe well enough so I just picked up a Proton LT to replace it.

[zion zig zag]

The challenge for me is always how to stay dry during high intensity effort (breaking trail in deep fresh snow) while it’s snowing hard at moderate (minus 5 - minus 10C) temperatures. In a good year I’ll get at least 30 days touring in these conditions (following an existing trail or in colder temps is a different story). No hard shell breathes well enough (even a hybrid like the Patagonia Mixed Guide didn’t work for me) and most of the more breathable alternatives wet out. I focus on a breathable layer that as much as possible repels and won’t hold water, which is a function of its both its DWR and the mechanical properties (smooth and tight) of the fabric.

I use the OR Ferossi for this.

[rod9301]

I always wear just a windshirt, very light, breathes well and cuts the wind.

Soft shell pants by arc'teryx.

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[Lindahl]

You want the Outdoor Research Ferrosi jacket and the Outdoor Research Cirque pants. Really good prices and incredibly well done. The Ferrosi is a super thin stretch woven softshell, which is great because you can adjust your base layer depending on the temp. The pants are a thicker stretch woven material, which is great because you can go without a baselayer unless it's pretty cold.

[whyturn]

Neoshell and event for me with polartec alpha insulation piece


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[stealurface831]

You want the Outdoor Research Ferrosi jacket and the Outdoor Research Cirque pants. Really good prices and incredibly well done. The Ferrosi is a super thin stretch woven softshell, which is great because you can adjust your base layer depending on the temp. The pants are a thicker stretch woven material, which is great because you can go without a baselayer unless it's pretty cold.

the cirque pants are awesome. i wear mine all the time. even in warmer temps, they are great if i am bushwhacking.

[XXX-er]

I'm still rocking a Patagonia Ascensionist as well, but most days I use nothing but a base layer, a 4oz. windbreaker, and some sort of breathable insulation i can throw over the top as needed. I have pretty much no use for a hardshell. I've never use a hybrid piece, but if I skied in CA I'd probably look for the the lightest (least warm) one I could find.

Does that piece have the heat sealed seams ?

I had one and i liked it but be very careful about using a hot dryer