Steamboat Powdercats can kindly go fuck themselves

[Conundrum]

There will probably be a guide book for most areas someday. Or a website, or blog, or trip report, or.... Some good, some bad.

Seems like a good opportunity for the operators and ex-guide to get together, maybe leave a couple of the secret and dangerous runs out of the book, high light cat ski operating boundaries, put a etiquette and safety section in the front of the book and move on. Most would win in this situation. Or, sue each other, write a shitty guide book giving away all the good spots and create bad blood.

[Conundrum]

I don't live in/frequent alaska, but based on my one heli-ski experience up in Haines, it appeared to me that the complete opposite approach to what you are saying is generally taken. Heli ski operators will find another zone and avoid areas with groups of sledders or human-powered skiers to give them space. I know that Silverton heli also takes this approach.

Lease operating areas and the ability to fly versus ground travel are a lot different.

[doebedoe]

There will probably be a guide book for most areas someday. Or a website, or blog, or trip report, or.... Some good, some bad.

Seems like a good opportunity for the operators and ex-guide to get together, maybe leave a couple of the secret and dangerous runs out of the book, high light cat ski operating boundaries, put a etiquette and safety section in the front of the book and move on. Most would win in this situation. Or, sue each other, write a shitty guide book giving away all the good spots and create bad blood.

Exactly.

The idea that we shouldn't have guidebooks because a "zone is too busy already" is misguided from my view. The type of people seeking out and reading a guidebook are the ones that care. Publishing it isn't going to ruin an already "overrun" zone.

[doxinho]

Lot of angles to this story. I was out with Powdercats on their final day of the 2017/2018 season, with Bass as the rear guide- real nice guy but can see how this is going to upset a lot of locals. I just moved to Steamboat this summer and as someone looking to explore the backcountry, a guidebook is appealing... but not as appealing as the crowds that it will bring. Much more interested in meeting and learning from knowledgeable locals, but feeling like more of an uphill battle in these times.

[hatchgreenchile]

If their tenure is on public land, not sure I agree. What I do think is taking their nomenclature and the knowledge gained from working for them and printing it is lame.

Edit-not sure how they should protect their interests but agree they should try. Maybe they sue for some of the profits of the book because they basically gave the guy the knowledge to write it. Court rules in favor of the cats and once they calculate their share, there's no profit left and they don't print it. Really just brainstorming.

Devils advocate hat still on...

"Protecting their interests" was in reference to working with local land managers and user groups about best practices for the area, not about courtroom battles with $20 mapmakers.

Powdercats gains absolutely nothing by having more people in their permit zone. The "public safety" and "etiquette" angle are fluff. I've got a few guidebooks on the shelf and they are for one thing - finding lines to ride.

They've been paying the national forest for 35+ years to do their thing. They maintain the roads the general public can use. They've built a very strong reputation as one of the best cat operations in the US. They seem to be a good steward of the land. They should have a say about what goes on within their permit zone, especially when it comes to other entities profiting off what they've built.

Print a guidebook for the rest of Buff Pass and Routt County for all I care, but leave their zone out of it. It's the respectful thing to do.

[3PinGrin]

there are maybe 10 people here who remember that whole mess. But yeah, it's what I immediately thought of too.

That one was too good to forget, librarian lady was a peach of a human being.

[Conundrum]

Devils advocate hat still on...

"Protecting their interests" was in reference to working with local land managers and user groups about best practices for managing the area, not about courtroom battles with $20 mapmakers.

Powdercats gains absolutely nothing by having more people in their permit zone. The "public safety" and "etiquette" angle are fluff. They've been paying the national forest for 35+ years to do their thing. They maintain the roads the general public can use. They've built a very strong reputation as one of the best cat operations in the US. They seem to be a good steward of the land. They should have a say about what goes on within their permit zone, especially when it comes to other entities profiting off it what they've built.

Print a guidebook for the rest of Routt County for all I care, but leave out their zone out of it. It's the respectful thing to do.

I get what you're saying now and I'm your team. Thank you. Yeah, I would avoid courts to start with. Seems like what would be cool is the cat zone in the book on the map, if he moves forward, is just made grey without much info other than a statement that it is legally publicly accessible but describe the work the cat operators do and the etiquette of accessing the cat zone with input from the cat operators. Doesn't sound like that will happen but it would be cool if it did. Or, I don't have a dog in the fight but I'd like to ski with that operation someday. And ski on my in that area.

[MakersTeleMark]

I will never forget. Save Wolf Creek Pass.

[hatchgreenchile]

Or, I don't have a dog in the fight but I'd like to ski with that operation someday. And ski on my in that area.

Me too - it looks like an awesome operation; Buffalo Pass gets some massive storms!
Routt County is a very special place.

[MakersTeleMark]

Routt County is a very special place.

I laughed.

[muted]

Sounds like you're just mad that there's a guidebook for your 'secret' stash and not that you care too much about the powdercat operation, which I guess is an expected response.

That's an asshole take of situation from you, from hundreds of miles away. I can almost see the sneer as I read your words.

There will probably be a guide book for most areas someday. Or a website, or blog, or trip report, or.... Some good, some bad.

Seems like a good opportunity for the operators and ex-guide to get together, .

In the article I thought it said the cat op called the author and the author won't call them back.


Anyways, I don't understand why people shit on Simple about this. (not you Conundrum). It's a shitty situation for him and others and all people have to say is 'tough luck'. What a community!

[altasnob]

Why do ski areas operating on National Forest get to prevent snowmobiling in the resort? Safety? And some resorts limit uphill (and downhill) non-motorized travel for non-customers as well. All do to safety? Seems like Powdercats real mistake was not duping forest managers into letting them have exclusive use of this area, or at least exclusive motorized use and be able to dictate where non-motorized uphill/downhill users can go. All in the name of safety just like lift served resorts.

Not that I would want that to happen but funny how we are totally cool giving lift served resorts exclusive use to write the rules on public resort land but get bent out of shape when a snow-cat op wants to do the same.

[Bunion 2020]

Fucking stop.

Ski Areas make extremely sizeable investments in their infrastructure in order to have the right to operate exclusively, they pay a good chunk of their operating income for that right, ski areas that operate on public lands do not write the rules under which they operate. Comparing the two is really silly. Some could say, fucking stupid.

Seems like what would be cool is the cat zone in the book on the map, if he moves forward, is just made grey without much info other than a statement that it is legally publicly accessible but describe the work the cat operators do and the etiquette of accessing the cat zone with input from the cat operators.

!

[Jax]

I see both sides of this, as an author of a hiking guidebook and also as a backcountry skier. To my defense, I did not give out any secrets...

I've been lucky to get a seat with Powdercats a few times, and even in lean years it was super fun. Great people and overall experience, though we were severely limited on terrain choices if there were weaklings in the group. (Make sure you go with similar ability skiers to get most for your money). I like what Conundrum has suggested above but that's very unlikely to happen wrt the guidebook.

The thing is, the people are coming, and have been coming the past 3 years or so, in droves. It seriously is a shitshow up here. Fuck, I live 2 miles from Dry Lake CG and I avoid Buff Pass in the wintertime at all costs due to the motorhead vibe/parking clusterfuck and overall busy-ness. It ain't no quaint secret and honestly jumped the shark years ago. The parking area with slednecks needs to be pay-to-play or something, its freakin' redic nowadays. Can't wait to hear of what will happen up there this winter with Covid and shit. It's crazy to see the word 'backcountry' on front page headlines in major metropolitan newspapers regarding retail sales and the sheer volume of people new to the experience that WILL be out this year, whether we like it or not. But we are dealing with TWO types of folks at the TH...slednecks, and skiers with sleds. Add 'em up and its a big mess. One of these types will not be buying that book, published or not.

The fact this guy used to work for them and is now spilling the beans on certain stashes is a dick move, IMO, and directly affects the cat operation. Seems like ill-will on his part, even if the article says he left on good terms.

A few places I access are technically wilderness and I still sometimes see slednecks tearing it up with zero regard. But these guys aren't skiers, just out for a joyride. More signage would be a start. Powdercats does put up signs and popular drop off zones for skiers and riders, but they are easy to ignore, not highly visible, small font, etc...

If I had a dollar for every local that has bought a sled the past few years so they can ski on buff...

So long as people keep on breeding and vacationing, the more people that will keep showing up. It's just how that works.

I dunno. Just ramblings from a local.

[altasnob]

I agree it is an apples to oranges comparison (ski resorts vs. cat ops). But ski areas don't get to restrict and control uphill access because they pay a higher special use permit fee or make more money. They are allowed to restrict access because of safety issues presented (or at least that is what they and the Forest Service want everyone to believe).

And ski areas do get to write the rules on uphill access. So, yes, they do write at least some of the rules under which they operate. Doebedoe posted a sample special use permit. There may be minuscule differences from ski area to ski area, but these things are totally boilerplate. The ski areas get to fill in all the nitty gritty details, like uphill travel rules.

https://www.fs.fed.us/r2/recreation/...fs-2700-5b.pdf

[brutah]

That's an asshole take of situation from you, from hundreds of miles away. I can almost see the sneer as I read your words.

Yeah I guess I was playing the devil's advocate side of things.... and probably got a little asshole-ish so I apologise to simple for that.

I do have family in steamboat so I'm fairly familiar with the scene and area. We frequent the area often and I spent a winter there including 6 weeks this summer. I've skied in the dry lake area but certainly not where the powdercats operate as I don't have access to a snowmobile.

I'm just not into localism and the tribalism bullshit. That type of exclusiveness is just another flavor of racism in my book. And that is what I think is at the root of the anti-guidebook sentiment with the exception of the operators. But I also get the ski scene changes without the powdercats cutting roads.

if youre making a safety argument I think the area becomes safer with a guidebook because beta and maps for the area, where terrain traps and avy history can be included. Rescue teams now have a way to communicate the specific area of a victim with each other and the victim's party. It's certainly helped rescues in the crowded Wasatch to have a widely available map (I get the central Wasatch is totally different). I get not giving away all the stashes but that area, as stated above, is already overcrowded and I think overcrowded areas are begging for guidebooks. A proper guidebook may even help alleviate etiquette issues too.

Do I think the guide is a dick and probably committing career suicide? Yes probably. I'd like to hear why he truly choose to do so because he obviously has a chip on his shoulder. But I also think it's well within his rights to do so unless powdercats makes you sign a nondisclosure. Definitely an aggressive move towards your former employer.

[MakersTeleMark]

The fact that Buff Pass isn't pay to play blows my mind. And the cat has been out of the bag for nearly a decade. The Grand Mesa is next, along with the Flattops.

[altasnob]

Do I think the guide is . . .committing career suicide [by publishing the guide book?]

The authors of these guide books are guides and use the guidebooks as a form of advertising. They not only make money by getting a slice of the guidebook money, they get paid because people hire them to guide specifically because they are the author of the guidebook. So it is the exact opposite of career suicide by publishing these guidebooks.

[MakersTeleMark]

The authors of these guide books are guides and use the guidebooks as a form of advertising. They not only make money by getting a slice of the guidebook money, they get paid because people hire them to guide specifically because they are the author of the guidebook. So it is the exact opposite of career suicide by publishing these guidebooks.

That is not true in this case.

[muted]

Yeah I guess I was playing the devil's advocate side of things.... and probably got a little asshole-ish so I apologise to simple for that.

Errrr, I am unfamiliar with people apologizing on this board and have no idea what the proper response is to this.

I'm just not into localism and the tribalism bullshit. That type of exclusiveness is just another flavor of racism in my book. And that is what I think is at the root of the anti-guidebook sentiment with the exception of the operators. But I also get the ski scene changes without the powdercats cutting roads.

I get the localism part and think skiing is quickly heading to or where surfing is now, when it comes to localism. And that sucks.

Do I think the guide is a dick and probably committing career suicide? Yes probably. I'd like to hear why he truly choose to do so because he obviously has a chip on his shoulder. But I also think it's well within his rights to do so unless powdercats makes you sign a nondisclosure. Definitely an aggressive move towards your former employer.

Maybe in these unprecedented times he's simply broke and somehow justified all this bullshit in his head. Let's get whyturn to ask him!

[Foggy_Goggles]

I know we are not allowed to have communities anymore and the only egalitarian is a fuckin' free for all race to the bottom but here is the this some of ya'll have been missing. Simple is a bit more up to date on the and Jax is about 1.5 hr drive more local than me so their takes are a bit more current. There has been a negotiable and peaceful system with the Powder Cats and snowmobile skiers on Buff Pass for at least 25 years as I know it. It was peace, love and internal combustion for a long time.

This goes back to the days where snowmobiles wouldn't make it out of the parking lot if it were not for the cat road. It was beyond cool. And no, you didn't need to be a local whatever than means. The Powder Cats actually encouraged you to call them so you could find out the status of where they would be operating.

This guide book will create friction. Its all well and good to sit at the keyboard and talk about access and rights and whatknot but it is gonna make is worse for everyone. With a certain amount of respect and decorum, Buff Pass is a world class snowmobile destination with enough powder for everyone. If the order is lost, everyone loses. If the cat op fails and the roads don't get built, everyone's access is compromised.

But hey, lets have a fight. Bring in the JDs! Compare it to the Wasatch. It's just like a ski area! Go spend $200K on a 4x4 van and 2 turbo 174s for you and your boyfriend. Don't forget to take screen shots of the guide book when you crushing white claws in the lot the night before. Don't forget to come out with a real hard flex like this is serious business.

[MakersTeleMark]

If anyone thinks guidebook authors make money, they are nuts. It's an ego thing. Just see Lou Dawson or Gerry Roach.

The dude in question doesn't even live in Colorado. He's a Utard.

[altasnob]

My comment about guide book authors making money and using it to promote their guiding business is based on Matt Schonwald, who wrote the Washington Beacon guidebooks and is founder of BC Adventure Guides. He has five other guides working for him, and while I do not know his specific financials, seems to be doing well:

https://www.bcadventureguides.com/about/our-guides/

[Zeedashbo]

People who write guide books should be shot.

Sent from my SM-G973U1 using TGR Forums mobile app

[Bunion 2020]

And ski areas do get to write the rules on uphill access.

Yeah? Ummmm. No.



There is a collaboration between the permit holder and the Local SO.