THE OFFICIAL 20/21 TAHOE SKI & SNOWBOARD THREAD. PANDEMIC SCHMANDEMIC!

[teledad]

Their reasons for not putting the Tamarack fire out before it got out of control don't hold water. I don't actually think it was because they needed the business, but it is a really fucking big hugely capital intensive business, and if those dozers aren't out destroying the landscape they aren't getting any return on the hundreds of millions invested.

If anything I'd think it was the opposite - not wanting to commit expensive equipment, fuel, and people to a fire that seemed likely to burn out on its own. Particularly early in the fire season with a lot of hot days ahead and a fixed annual budget. Also this was the feds, who are more budget constrained than CalFire (particularly compared to the total amount of land covered) and were having trouble with seasonal hiring at the time. Most of the strike suppression work over the last couple of days has been by CalFire.

[powdork]

If anything I'd think it was the opposite - not wanting to commit expensive equipment, fuel, and people to a fire that seemed likely to burn out on its own. Particularly early in the fire season with a lot of hot days ahead and a fixed annual budget. Also this was the feds, who are more budget constrained than CalFire (particularly compared to the total amount of land covered) and were having trouble with seasonal hiring at the time. Most of the strike suppression work over the last couple of days has been by CalFire.

They only needed a bucket on the helicopter they sent out to monitor it multiple times. There are multiple lakes 1.5 miles away, which are also at a road and trailhead. All that was needed was a few water drops and a few shovels.

[wolfy]

First of all- it seems a bit pathetic that we're arguing fire policy on 9-11. The whole drift gets lost on me today. There were some really good skiers and great story tellers in the FDNY group of 343 and they deserve to be remembered for a lot longer than 20 years.

The Tamarack Fire was low priority because of the fire policies adopted for wilderness and national parks. They are preserved with ALL natural processes- as exemplified by the Yellowstone fires of 1988. Fires are generally considered "let burn" until they hit the boundary line or improvements, then suppression is taken. Local sources were committed on other fires when Tamarack started, and a single tree fire (even with spotting) in a wilderness- is still a low priority.
Wind events can be planned around, but with resource drawdown you are still prioritizing.

It is unfortunate that we have all missed out on about 3 weeks of forest recreation, and it may go on a bit longer. But there are around 8k firefighters on the line today to our North and South who would be happy to trade places with any one of us.
Drop a pie by a firestation and tell 'em thanks. Never forget. Stay safe out there.

[old goat]

Wolfy--if you lost friends or relatives or acquaintances or people you heard about and felt connected to on 9/11 I'm sorry for your loss and I respect your feelings. Perhaps it was a mistake for you to visit this thread today. I'm sure everyone who died on 9/11, civilian, cop or firefighter, skier, storyteller or neither deserves to be remembered and are remembered as a group and individually by someone. There are other sad dates--some I was alive for, some not, when Americans died, and those dates mean as much or more to me than 9/11. December 7. June 6. November 22. April 4. We should all remember those dates and the people who died on them each in our own way and without judging how others choose to remember them, or not.

[powdork]

Whooops. You are correct. And they mentioned it in the first sentence and I didn't catch it. So the part about safety was most likely to defer criticism of their policy (which I get).
I have to say I spend 80% of my summer days out Blue Lakes Road and never had any idea the Mokelumne wrapped around and bordered it there. There's no signs at all. I've ridden my bike out the Thornburg Trail to Jeff Davis Peak a number of times and the tall snowmobile boundary signs were always on my right on the way up which would place them in the middle of wilderness too according to the maps. Even Blue Lakes road goes through a tiny portion.

[old goat]

There shouldn't be any roads in or near a Wilderness. The FS maps aren't always accurate regarding Wilderness boundaries. See the controversy over the Granite Chief Wilderness and whether Squaw's original plan for the gondola went through it. Part of the problem is that apparently the original surveying of the area was likely done from a hotel room--the surveyor's description mentions landmarks that no one can seem to find. In the case of Granite Chief the Wilderness sign seems to be in the right place--not on Troy Caldwell's land, but the map shows the boundary further east. I don't know if any of this applies to the Mokelumne. (I don't know the area where the fire started so what I'm saying may be irrelevant.)

I used to hike a lot a lot in the Carson Pass Round Top area before it was Wilderness. I don't know that there was any actual surveying done when the Wilderness was established. I get the impression that someone drew some lines on a map and there it was.

[powdork]

I know. that's part of what's so surprising. Check out both the caltopo and/or pcta interactive maps (although they're probably both sourced from caltopo's database).
Here's where it crosses the road and it's 100 meters from the road for over a mile

[abraham]

Damn nationalmap.gov shows that same section crossed by the wilderness. Had an argument with my sister about roads in that wilderness this summer, I guess I was wrong.

[frorider]

Wolfy your summary of why Tamarack was handled that way lines up with my understanding.

My view on prescribed burns and the let-it-burn-when-appropriate strategies is that overall they need to happen more, which means statistically there will be more shit hits the fan moments. As adults we should expect and deal with that.

I was repulsed when my Instagram feed had some fucking law firm ad basically saying I could sue for damages based on significant ash deposits on my house and yard.

[GoSlowGoFar]

There shouldn't be any roads in or near a Wilderness.

My understanding, which is recalling a couple classes I took some years back in Wilderness Area Management so take it with a grain of salt, is that wilderness can and does have some roads in it but these roads can no longer be used for mechanized travel. I believe it mostly comes down to how the law was written for the specific wilderness area in question because there are a bunch of exemptions outlined in the wilderness act. I believe there’s even an actively used airport in a wilderness area somewhere in Idaho if I recall.

[SDW]

Wilderness designations are as much a political tool as a land management tool, and the lines do get drawn in strange places. There's at least one road still in use in Desolation (to the spillway at Rubicon Reservoir). Plus there's "cherry stemming" of roads in multiple Wilderness areas, abandoned roads, old structures and mines, etc. Not nearly as "untrammeled by man" as the purists would like.

The Granite Chief Wilderness boundary at Five Lakes isn't as confusing as some claim. Sierra Watch dug up and published old maps that showed a proposed boundary, not the actual boundary.

[LongShortLong]

I was repulsed when my Instagram feed had some fucking law firm ad basically saying I could sue for damages based on significant ash deposits on my house and yard.

Who do they think can be sued? Asking for a situation with significant ash deposits where the cabin and yard were.

[powdork]

The Tamarack Fire was low priority because of the fire policies adopted for wilderness and national parks. They are preserved with ALL natural processes- as exemplified by the Yellowstone fires of 1988. Fires are generally considered "let burn" until they hit the boundary line or improvements, then suppression is taken. Local sources were committed on other fires when Tamarack started, and a single tree fire (even with spotting) in a wilderness- is still a low priority.
Wind events can be planned around, but with resource drawdown you are still prioritizing.

I guess they've changed now, since they are fully suppressing the Walkers Fire in the Golden Trout Wilderness as well the newer Paradise Fire and Colony Fire (together the KNP Complex located both in Wilderness and within the park boundaries). The Paradise Fire definitely threatens the park infrastructure but I'm not certain why they're fighting the Colony Fire.

[old goat]

My understanding, which is recalling a couple classes I took some years back in Wilderness Area Management so take it with a grain of salt, is that wilderness can and does have some roads in it but these roads can no longer be used for mechanized travel. I believe it mostly comes down to how the law was written for the specific wilderness area in question because there are a bunch of exemptions outlined in the wilderness act. I believe there’s even an actively used airport in a wilderness area somewhere in Idaho if I recall.

That's a good point. When I was "researching" (ie Googling) the Granite Chief issue I looked at the California Wilderness Act of 1984, which designated the GC, for exemptions and found none. The Moke was expanded in the same Act. I haven't gone back to look for exemptions for it.

The sign on the 5 lakes trail marking the GCW looks to be in the right place from an aesthetic standpoint. It's the point where Alpine and Squaw are out of the picture.

[powdrhound]

I know that a lot of controlled burning was done around Grover Hot Springs.
Was it at all effective during the Tamarack fire at reducing the damage?

[Mr. Toad]

Thanks dookey for the NS hookup. It was nice to ride dirt and breathe clean air again, not having to think about the climate catastrophe we’re in.




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[mcski]

Just got mine in the mail and hope to utilize very soon as well! Thx Dookie !

[GoSlowGoFar]

Per TAMBA, apparently the USFS is reporting having to take crews off mop up duty to assist law enforcement because mtbers are biking up trying to check out the trail damage...

[lepistoir]

[old goat]

Does that mean we can start the 21/22 thread?

[powdork]

Per TAMBA, apparently the USFS is reporting having to take crews off mop up duty to assist law enforcement because mtbers are biking up trying to check out the trail damage...

I read that too. Not sure why they feel they 'have to' take crews off mopping up for that though.

[lepistoir]

Does that mean we can start the 21/22 thread?

If you ski it before it melts?

[GoSlowGoFar]

I read that too. Not sure why they feel they 'have to' take crews off mopping up for that though.

Not surprised. Call the district, ask them.

I think the more appropriate response is to question the folks trying to get up there in the first place as opposed to the decision of those managing the fire to take crews falling trees, etc. to make sure the public doesn't venture in and create a rescue or ems scenario.

[heckacali]

Not surprised. Call the district, ask them.

I think the more appropriate response is to question the folks trying to get up there in the first place as opposed to the decision of those managing the fire to take crews falling trees, etc. to make sure the public doesn't venture in and create a rescue or ems scenario.

They need the chainsaws to cut the trespassers CF frames into pieces....

[J. Barron DeJong]

Thanks dookey for the NS hookup. It was nice to ride dirt and breathe clean air again, not having to think about the climate catastrophe we’re in.




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Dookey hand delivered mine, and I got out there today as well. Thanks Dookey!

First time riding park in about 20 years. Still tons of fun.

Also, gotta say, 29er trail bikes with up to date geometry are amazingly capable.