WASATCH STOKE, CONDITIONS, OBSERVATIONS and ASSORTED DRIVAL 20-21

[telefreewasatch]

Bump so this gets seen...

Gonna bump this:

Train is so wrong for so many reasons.
I don't care who benefits from it but we shoulda put a gondola in a long time ago.
We need the road, but we need a fire escape.
It doesn't have to be one lift but several like the Collins lift is.
Thus moving more people per hour.
This is what I sent the CWC in October, and our Governor this morning:

Hello,
My name is Jim Collinson. My family and I have lived in LCC for 30 years, and I have worked here as a ski patrolman, avalanche forecaster, rescuer and dog handler for 40.
The most terrifying moments of my life have been performing avalanche road rescues in the canyon, especially at night.
And I've been involved in many.
To address safety concerns and traffic congestion I feel that both a minimum of snow sheds AND a gondola are necessary.
Snow sheds under the earliest and most frequent running slide paths will mitigate but not eliminate rescues. And when they run they will allow forecasters say "time to close the road." Not "the road just closed itself" and have bumper to bumper vehicles under adjacent paths.
If we do not move the public in a safer manner than the highway during increasing hazard there will be catastrophes involving many people.
Avalanche hazard and weather will not affect a gondola's ability to move people and goods quickly and safely.
The current UDOT gondola proposal does not fit the bill at 1,050 people an hour with parking at the gravel pit and does not have my support but the Gondolaworks proposal appears to.
If it can truly move 4,000+ people per hour and park them at the base terminal then it is a no brainer for many, not just me.

If one must choose between gondola and snow sheds, I vote gondola first with snow shed plans for the near future.
White Pine Chutes #s 1 + 2 are the earliest runners, usually.
They enjoy a steep hillside above which I assume would make construction costs less that Little Pine or White Pine paths.
I suggest starting small with one shed covering WP 1 + 2.

As an aside, if one believes in climate change there will be no snow in Summit County or the temps to make it in say 20 years.
Yet most of our hotels, condos, eateries, etc. are located there.
We need to spin bull wheels not bald tires to get these guests to upper BCC and LCC where the last island of snow will be around these parts.
So I am in full support of connecting Park City with the Cottonwoods via a gondola.
Thank you for accepting input on a solution to a very real set of problems for us here in LCC,
Jim Collinson

[Dantheman]

The current UDOT gondola proposal does not fit the bill at 1,050 people an hour with parking at the gravel pit and does not have my support but the Gondolaworks proposal appears to.
If it can truly move 4,000+ people per hour and park them at the base terminal then it is a no brainer for many, not just me.

La Caille base station gondola is 1,050 ppl/hr: https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.uta...0_2020_FIN.pdf

[telefreewasatch]

La Caille base station gondola is 1,050 ppl/hr: https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.uta...0_2020_FIN.pdf

Thanks for that. I am somewhat confused with their numbers. They move lots of people in the air in Europe, quickly. Why can't we? Hell, we're Merica!

[Dantheman]

They move lots of people in the air in Europe, quickly. Why can't we?

Socialism

They have lots of nice things in Yurp that we aren't allowed to have (universal healthcare, high-speed trains, AWD MT diesel wagons, quality food) for stupid-ass reasons. But, in this case I think it's actually just physics.

[telefreewasatch]

Socialism

They have lots of nice things in Yurp that we aren't allowed to have (universal healthcare, high-speed trains, AWD MT diesel wagons, quality food) for stupid-ass reasons. But, in this case I think it's actually just physics.

Still confused. Not uncommon anymore. Looking at the UDOT plan, isn't the 1,050 number for buses?
And with three angles to get to Alta, that's three lifts, not one.
Shorter cables = faster speeds, no?

The Doppelmayr/Garaventa Group’s proven tricable gondola detachable (TGD) ropeways combine the benefits of gondola lift and reversible aerial tramway. The result is technical perfection. This 3S system has two fixed, fully locked track ropes on which the carrier travels and a circulating haul rope which is clamped to the 8-wheel carriages. This detachable continuous movement system offers top performance and reliability. It has cabins for up to 38 passengers and maintains top ride comfort even in extreme weather conditions. Very high wind stability, low energy consumption and the capability to cope with very long rope spans are the unmistakable strengths of 3S ropeways.
To enable all passengers to be safely returned to solid ground in an emergency scenario, an innovative recovery concept was developed for 3S lifts. All functionally relevant parts and equipment are duplicated and independent of one another. The aim of this novel development was to provide the technical and organizational means to ensure that all cabins can always be safely returned to the nearest station.
The 3S gondola lift at a glance

• Speed up to 8.5 m/s
• Transport capacity up to 5,500 passengers per hour and direction
• Utmost availability
• Top comfort and safety
• All parts and equipment comply with EU directives (CEN)

[Shred Baron]

I'm surprised there isn't a proposal to build a temple on top of the parking structure.



Yep.



2.2 miles vs. 8 miles is the issue. My armchair-expert understanding is that, on average, capacity is inversely proportional to length. Whistler P2P is the same tri-cable system and has much higher capacity because it's also much shorter. If built the LCC gondola would be longest in the world.

Length does not affect capacity of circulating lifts like chairs and gondolas. It is only affected on jig backs like trams. There are two (sort of three) factors that determine capacity of normal lifts: number of people per carrier, and load interval (which can be broken into carrier spacing and speed). On a jig back you can take load interval and split it into length, speed (these determine trip time) and time between trips. I would guess capacity is low due to a long spacing for 3 reasons. 1. Less towers needed, which means smaller environmental impact footprint, and of course less money. 2. Less cabins means less money spent on cabins, those fuckers ain’t cheap, and with a long line you would have to have more cabins to keep your spacing short. 3. Other engineering considerations that would decrease cost, like haul rope, motor size etc. That all being said, they may design the lift for higher capacity with the ability to add cabins later.

TLDR low capacity cause money not length.


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[Dantheman]

Still confused. Not uncommon anymore. Looking at the UDOT plan, isn't the 1,050 number for buses?
And with three angles to get to Alta, that's three lifts, not one.
Shorter cables = faster speeds, no?

1,050 is for "Transit" which in this alternative means gondola+bus service to the gondi base from satellite parking hubs. You'll have to talk to UDOT and Doppelmayr for firm answers about the capacity issue.

Length does not affect capacity of circulating lifts like chairs and gondolas. It is only affected on jig backs like trams. There are two (sort of three) factors that determine capacity of normal lifts: number of people per carrier, and load interval (which can be broken into carrier spacing and speed). On a jig back you can take load interval and split it into length, speed (these determine trip time) and time between trips. I would guess capacity is low due to a long spacing for 3 reasons. 1. Less towers needed, which means smaller environmental impact footprint, and of course less money. 2. Less cabins means less money spent on cabins, those fuckers ain’t cheap, and with a long line you would have to have more cabins to keep your spacing short. 3. Other engineering considerations that would decrease cost, like haul rope, motor size etc. That all being said, they may design the lift for higher capacity with the ability to add cabins later.

TLDR low capacity cause money not length.

Thanks for the input! Some stuff I had read indicated that you could only put so many cabins onto one rope before the motor required became prohibitive, so spacing had to increase with length which reduced total ppl/hr. Still, there is a relationship, albeit an indirect one. Honestly, that just makes it that much more infuriating--a gondola that would actually solve the problem will cost too much money, so let's spend half a billion dollars building a half-assed compromise that gets us the worst of both worlds. Wonderful.

[altacoup]

Snowbirds plan for the Olympics is men’s and women’s slalom potentially under lights.

[new yabyum]

Snowbirds plan for the Olympics is men’s and women’s slalom potentially under lights.

Lovely, just fucking lovely.

[Shred Baron]

1,050 is for "Transit" which in this alternative means gondola+bus service to the gondi base from satellite parking hubs. You'll have to talk to UDOT and Doppelmayr for firm answers about the capacity issue.



Thanks for the input! Some stuff I had read indicated that you could only put so many cabins onto one rope before the motor required became prohibitive, so spacing had to increase with length which reduced total ppl/hr. Still, there is a relationship, albeit an indirect one. Honestly, that just makes it that much more infuriating--a gondola that would actually solve the problem will cost too much money, so let's spend half a billion dollars building a half-assed compromise that gets us the worst of both worlds. Wonderful.

I think length really just adds friction, and other inefficiencies. I think vertical is the big difference maker on power needed. What’s the vertical for the lift? You very well may have a good point there.


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[Dantheman]

It's about 3,500 vert.

[F#*k you cat]

It's about 3,500 vert.

Yeah rode it many times on a retro Klein.

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[F#*k you cat]

If only there was a study or two that was already done referencing the same problem. Now a third study is about to conclude. There has to be a point of diminishing returns on this. 3 studies now with great names but no results equates kicking the can down the line.

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[Xover]

I'm surprised there isn't a proposal to build a temple on top of the parking structure.

Bwahahaha Glad to see you still got your sense of humor!

[telefreewasatch]

We could at least spend some of the $50 mil. the Governor is willing to spend to purchase the land where the gondola base would be, eh?

[new yabyum]

We could at least spend some of the $50 mil. the Governor is willing to spend to purchase the land where the gondola base would be, eh?

Begs the question, who owns it now?

[JKnight]

If only there was a study or two that was already done referencing the same problem. Now a third study is about to conclude. There has to be a point of diminishing returns on this. 3 studies now with great names but no results equates kicking the can down the line.

The "S" in EIS doesn't stand for study. The State of Utah is also tired of the studies and has moved on to environmental compliance as well as earmarking funding. Now that the alternatives have been revised, one of them is likely to be implemented relatively soon unless the decision is litigated.

DTM posted this link, but it's worth repeating. Be sure to scroll down to view the handy webmap with preliminary engineering data showing infrastructure locations and disturbance areas for the various components that make up the alternatives.

https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.uta...-alternatives/

The La Caille gondola base is privately owned by an investment group that includes the ex-state legislators mentioned above, so I don't imagine parking will be free.

[Phall]

On more uplifting topics, anyone have a marker griffon/jester jig I could borrow for a day once my lady’s bindings arrive


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[altacoup]

The "S" in EIS doesn't stand for study. The State of Utah is also tired of the studies and has moved on to environmental compliance as well as earmarking funding. Now that the alternatives have been revised, one of them is likely to be implemented relatively soon unless the decision is litigated.

DTM posted this link, but it's worth repeating. Be sure to scroll down to view the handy webmap with preliminary engineering data showing infrastructure locations and disturbance areas for the various components that make up the alternatives.

https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.uta...-alternatives/

The La Caille gondola base is privately owned by an investment group that includes the ex-state legislators mentioned above, so I don't imagine parking will be free.

I’ve been inspired by illadvisedstratedgy’s winterized moped talk. I’ll be buying a Honda ruckus with studs to access the gondola. Can park that bad boy anywhere and it gets 70mpg. Hope they allow mountain bikes so I can rally the big mountain trail to the quarry home from work in the summer.
In all reality. I’m pretty sure this is a done deal, Olympics included.

[JKnight]

Good idea, maybe the Gear Room could rent them and run exit shuttles down BCC from anything below the Reynolds Flat pedestrian crossing.

[Benneke10]

Oh my god what a nightmare the quarry trail would become if they allow mountain bikes on the gondola

[skifishbum]

On more uplifting topics, anyone have a marker griffon/jester jig I could borrow for a day once my lady’s bindings arrive


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i gotcha covered
i was gonna pm ya i got a new fks jig and was gonna sell ya the old one
but ya were gonna tar and feather my bro
cause he bought a mine.

[Phall]

Haha. All good. I’ll shoot you a PM once those binders show. My only qualms with the Cardiff guy is that he stays in his lane up there with regards to building and motorized vehicle use. I don’t care that he runs the cat and takes friends skiing, but if the rumors are true and he’s going off the road, there are some larger impact concerns.


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[Vets]

Yesterday.

The predicted snow flurries over delivered by 4 inches at Snowbird.

[brutah]

Yesterday.

The predicted snow flurries over delivered by 4 inches at Snowbird.

That's a big patch Vets! Looks goooood!