WASATCH STOKE, CONDITIONS, OBSERVATIONS and ASSORTED DRIVAL 20-21

[123ski]

UTA already struggles to find enough competent bus drivers. The increased bus service is proposing a bus up the canyon every 3-5 minutes so likely quadrupling the workforce needed by UTA. To hire that many skilled drivers in one fall seems like they'll pull anyone off the street who can pass a drug test so UTA can train them to get their CDL. Very often it's a bus blocking the road that causes the red snake. Rapidly increasing the workforce is going to rise the frequency of this occurrence.


The "one" tram is inaccurate. Its a gondola but people are calling it a tram because of the 30+ person capacity per car. There will be more than one car on the line. Maximum capacity of the two resorts is estimated at 7,000 people in Alta and 9,000 people at Snowbird so 16,000 combined. Estimate 5,000 beds for hotel guests, employees, and residents so moving at a very max 11,000 people down the canyon. Realistic numbers are more like 8,500 people. 2.5-3.5 hours total to safely get everybody out. It took longer than that to get out of the canyon nearly every snow storm this year.

How many days is it cloudy in the valley and snowing 2+ in/hour in upper LCC? The issue is the snow, which is often nonexistent 3000' lower. If the chairs stopped as frequently as the road when it snowed, this industry would be nonexistent. Not to mention there are many routes to the transit center at the mouth, whereas there is only one road between upper LCC and the mouth.

I don’t know where you got these numbers but as soon as snowbird hits 4,950 skiers the tram like exceeds 120 minutes and gadzoom exceeds 45.


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[altacoup]

There’s clearly only one way to solve this issue. Cap the number of people allowed in the canyon at any one time. And that’s never going to happen. Currently that’s done by limited parking spots and there’s still way too many people. My analysis is that things will continue to be fucked. And when the gondola gets built (it will, just looks who’s behind it) the lines at the ski hills will be even more insane. Unless we follow Brutah’s suggestion and just fully euro the whole wasatch. Lifts everywhere! I’d be down if we could get ski patrol to not blow up every last snow flake in the wasatch 🤪.

[Skidog]

There’s clearly only one way to solve this issue. Cap the number of people allowed in the canyon at any one time. And that’s never going to happen. Currently that’s done by limited parking spots and there’s still way too many people. My analysis is that things will continue to be fucked. And when the gondola gets built (it will, just looks who’s behind it) the lines at the ski hills will be even more insane. Unless we follow Brutah’s suggestion and just fully euro the whole wasatch. Lifts everywhere! I’d be down if we could get ski patrol to not blow up every last snow flake in the wasatch 🤪.

Better get used to standing in the trees towards the condos and walking uphill back to the wildcat lift.

If I didn't miss the terrain so much I would say I timed my move back east almost perfectly. I'm sure SFB is happy my jersey ass is gone. Love ya brother

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[telefreewasatch]

I very much respect what you’ve done and it seems like the experience of night rescues has been something you haven’t really enjoyed. Definitely appreciate the efforts you’ve put fourth. I have to ask...are these actually happening often? The story you tell is very dramatic, and I’m really sorry it’s stressed you out so much, but is it a common occurrence? Not confronting, just curious.

What, you saying I'm traumatized, huh? I'm FINE: fucking in needa everything. You're right, the highway closing itself happened more often in days gone by. Forecasting is better and way more conservative.
There was a Christmas eve storm in the '80s where Bengt, the up canyon forecaster, went to bed, radio off, and unplugged his phone.
Shit was real that night...

Weather and avalanches have become more catastrophic world wide. The hoax of climate change and all.
These higher density with high PI rate events falling on light density we are seeing more of lately are smacking the road easier, harder, and don't give much lead time...
Just one catastrophe could take more lives than we can imagine; one catastrophe is too many.
So, between widening the road or installing a gondola, it's a no brainer for me.

Somewhat alarming news shared by UDOT with the Granite Community Council which my buddy sits on.
John Thomas who used to be the engineer who'd meet with the council was not there, but a salesman type was.
Said that UDOT would limit the gondola to 1,050 pph.
Logic being that they're gonna move the same number with either alternative.
Huh?
Snow sheds for both alternatives.
Doppelmayr was at the meeting as well and said that the towers and cable would be capable of moving 4,000 pph, all you'd have to do is add more cabins.

!BIGGEST ALARM!
The gravel bit at the mouth of BCC had state funding at one time for 3,000 parking stalls. What happened to that money?
With the bus alternative it's 1,500.
With the gondola alternative it's 600.
My friend reported that UDOT is planning on 300 stalls if the gondola happens.
Huh?
No matter what we do for the Cottonwoods we must secure parking for carpooling and mass transit.
We have watched most prime available land get sold for McMansions for years.
This is the last big chunk that's not Federally controlled and we need to lobby for much more acreage at the gravel pit, a perfect hub for the Cottonwoods, than their shortsighted minds have in mind...

Whatever one's opinion on transportation in the Canyon's, please comment on this gravel pit oversight by the Sept. 3 deadline, eh?

[Skidog]

What, you saying I'm traumatized, huh? I'm FINE: fucking in needa everything.You're right, the highway closing itself happened more often in days gone by. Forecasting is better and way more conservative.
There was a Christmas eve storm in the '80s where Bengt, the up canyon forecaster, went to bed, radio off, and unplugged his phone.
Shit was real that night...

Weather and avalanches have become more catastrophic world wide. The hoax of climate change and all.
These higher density with high PI rate events falling on light density we are seeing more of lately are smacking the road easier, harder, and don't give much lead time...
Just one catastrophe could take more lives than we can imagine; one is too many.
So, between widening the road or installing a gondola, it's a no brainer for me.

Somewhat alarming news shared by UDOT with the Granite Community Council which my buddy sits on.
John Thomas who used to be the engineer who'd meet with the council was not there, but a salesman type was.
Said that UDOT would limit the gondola to 1,050 pph.
Logic being that they're gonna move the same number with either alternative.
Huh?
Snow sheds for both alternatives.
Doppelmayr was at the meeting as well and said that the towers and cable would be capable of moving 4,000 pph, all you'd have to do is add more cabins.

!BIGGEST ALARM!
The gravel bit at the mouth of BCC had state funding at one time for 3,000 parking stalls. What happened to that money?
With the bus alternative it's 1,500.
With the gondola alternative it's 600.
My friend reported that UDOT is planning on 300 stalls if the gondola happens.
Huh?
No matter what we do for the Cottonwoods we must secure parking for carpooling and mass transit.
We have watched most prime available land get sold for McMansions for years.
This is the last big chunk that's not Federally controlled and we need to lobby for much more acreage than their shortsighted minds have in mind...

Whatever one's opinion on transportation in the Canyon's, please comment on this gravel pit oversight by the Sept. 3 deadline, eh?

I wish, you especially, the best of luck up there. It's not just skiing untracked pow lines on patrol eh?

Cheers to you and your brothers and sisters. You keep us safe and enjoying sliding on snow.

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[Benneke10]

I met one of the owners of the gravel pit earlier this summer. He told me there have been zero formal talks with UDOT about buying any portion of it, and there is certainly not any kind of agreement in place. He said it will take 5-10 more years to finish mining the land (depending on the specific section) and they do not plan to sell until they have taken all the gravel they can get.

[telefreewasatch]

I met one of the owners of the gravel pit earlier this summer. He told me there have been zero formal talks with UDOT about buying any portion of it, and there is certainly not any kind of agreement in place. He said it will take 5-10 more years to finish mining the land (depending on the specific section) and they do not plan to sell until they have taken all the gravel they can get.

Cart before the horse, eh?

[123ski]

Cart before the horse, eh?

Or just planning to use eminent domain


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[tBatt]

So if our "third option" is to limit canyon capacity, what're the odds that pass prices stay the same with a lottery vs it becomes 3x the cost? I haven't been here that long, but long enough to know where I'll put my money.

The powers that be don't give a fuck how long the lift lines are. They want you to buy a ticket and leave after one run when they already have your money. "Come For the Skiing, Go Home for Lunch"

So what happens when your lift-served friends can't afford a pass anywhere in the state anymore? Methinks they look to the backcountry before they think about packing up and moving. Because the lift lines, traffic, lift tickets, real estate, and skiing is so much better in Jackson, Tahoe, or the Front Range, right? Because the management is different there and they wouldn't catch on? How do y'all feel about a 3x growth in backcountry users over one season? Do backcountry users generate so much revenue for the state that they'll expand parking in Whitepine, at the S turn, town of Alta?

as El Presidente said, "Just one catastrophe could take more lives than we can imagine; one is too many."

I'm not saying I have the metaphorical silver bullet. Maybe a dozen or so literal ones. Or maybe those were Banquets. Anyhoots, I've been looking at real estate prices back in upstate NY and thinking about other alternatives to get my rocks off. Real estate costs there 30-40% what they are here, might as well get ahead of the curve. Soon enough you'll be able to bike year round there, too, right?

[snowaddict91]

So if our "third option" is to limit canyon capacity, what're the odds that pass prices stay the same with a lottery vs it becomes 3x the cost? I haven't been here that long, but long enough to know where I'll put my money.

The powers that be don't give a fuck how long the lift lines are. They want you to buy a ticket and leave after one run when they already have your money. "Come For the Skiing, Go Home for Lunch"

So what happens when your lift-served friends can't afford a pass anywhere in the state anymore? Methinks they look to the backcountry before they think about packing up and moving. Because the lift lines, traffic, lift tickets, real estate, and skiing is so much better in Jackson, Tahoe, or the Front Range, right? Because the management is different there and they wouldn't catch on? How do y'all feel about a 3x growth in backcountry users over one season? Do backcountry users generate so much revenue for the state that they'll expand parking in Whitepine, at the S turn, town of Alta?

as El Presidente said, "Just one catastrophe could take more lives than we can imagine; one is too many."

I'm not saying I have the metaphorical silver bullet. Maybe a dozen or so literal ones. Or maybe those were Banquets. Anyhoots, I've been looking at real estate prices back in upstate NY and thinking about other alternatives to get my rocks off. Real estate costs there 30-40% what they are here, might as well get ahead of the curve. Soon enough you'll be able to bike year round there, too, right?

I wish I could argue with you, but I can't. I've been thinking a lot about buying a place on a lake in the midwest with a boat, and getting really into fishing. But the smoke even makes it there, so fuck.

[oldskibum]

Just a conversation piece and meaning no disrespect of the erudite comments. Changes are occurring exponentially and unpredictably. Drought and warming, more weather extremes, exceedingly crappy air, overcrowding, seemingly all at once but everything has been building. Canyon traffic issues may be the least of our problems.
Next winter could be interesting with no lake to produce lake effect, and limited water for snowmaking?
I could be full of it, and hope so. Those of us around for a while can be so grateful that we had the best of times in the "Greatest Snow on Earth."

[skifishbum]

um theres still a great salt lake covering about 1000 miles even at historic lows
so im going with not very observant rather than full of it
and last low was 63
it snowed a bit in 64
canyon bus service and uta has sucked since ive been here
and enhancing it to the point of not sucking is a pipe dream

[oldskibum]

RIGHT!

[Dantheman]

Somewhat alarming news shared by UDOT with the Granite Community Council which my buddy sits on.
John Thomas who used to be the engineer who'd meet with the council was not there, but a salesman type was.
Said that UDOT would limit the gondola to 1,050 pph.
Logic being that they're gonna move the same number with either alternative.
Huh?
Snow sheds for both alternatives.
Doppelmayr was at the meeting as well and said that the towers and cable would be capable of moving 4,000 pph, all you'd have to do is add more cabins.

!BIGGEST ALARM!
The gravel bit at the mouth of BCC had state funding at one time for 3,000 parking stalls. What happened to that money?
With the bus alternative it's 1,500.
With the gondola alternative it's 600.
My friend reported that UDOT is planning on 300 stalls if the gondola happens.
Huh?
No matter what we do for the Cottonwoods we must secure parking for carpooling and mass transit.
We have watched most prime available land get sold for McMansions for years.
This is the last big chunk that's not Federally controlled and we need to lobby for much more acreage at the gravel pit, a perfect hub for the Cottonwoods, than their shortsighted minds have in mind...

Whatever one's opinion on transportation in the Canyon's, please comment on this gravel pit oversight by the Sept. 3 deadline, eh?

On the capacity issue: My semi-conspiratorial take would be that they're gaming the cost estimates to make the bus and gondola options appear cost-neutral. Quadrupling the number of cabins on the line throws that out of whack. Same reason why they're saying it will only operate 120 days/year.

On the parking issue: The Gondolaworks group is, AFAIK, only offering up that ground for the base station if a parking structure is attached to it. To keep everything cost-neutral with the bus alternative the Gravel Pit and Highland Drive mobility hubs have to shrink. It seems completely crazy to put the majority of the parking at the mouth of the canyon instead of satellite locations, but what the hell do I know....

I met one of the owners of the gravel pit earlier this summer. He told me there have been zero formal talks with UDOT about buying any portion of it, and there is certainly not any kind of agreement in place. He said it will take 5-10 more years to finish mining the land (depending on the specific section) and they do not plan to sell until they have taken all the gravel they can get.

Holy shit.

Anyhoots, I've been looking at real estate prices back in upstate NY and thinking about other alternatives to get my rocks off. Real estate costs there 30-40% what they are here, might as well get ahead of the curve. Soon enough you'll be able to bike year round there, too, right?

I don't know about upstate NY, but in a decade-ish when my kid has finished college I'll be looking at an exit strategy regardless of how ruined the skiing is. There's going to be 4+ million people on the Wasatch Front in 10-15 years (100% growth is projected in Utah County ). That's getting into proper big city numbers and I'm just not interested in living in a metro area that large.

canyon bus service and uta has sucked since ive been here

Way back in the day when I drove a beat up Civic I rode the bus all the time and it was generally great. Never had a problem getting a parking spot or a seat and it sure beat chaining up.

[baron]

What, you saying I'm traumatized, huh? I'm FINE: fucking in needa everything. You're right, the highway closing itself happened more often in days gone by. Forecasting is better and way more conservative.
There was a Christmas eve storm in the '80s where Bengt, the up canyon forecaster, went to bed, radio off, and unplugged his phone.
Shit was real that night...

Weather and avalanches have become more catastrophic world wide. The hoax of climate change and all.
These higher density with high PI rate events falling on light density we are seeing more of lately are smacking the road easier, harder, and don't give much lead time...
Just one catastrophe could take more lives than we can imagine; one catastrophe is too many.
So, between widening the road or installing a gondola, it's a no brainer for me.

Somewhat alarming news shared by UDOT with the Granite Community Council which my buddy sits on.
John Thomas who used to be the engineer who'd meet with the council was not there, but a salesman type was.
Said that UDOT would limit the gondola to 1,050 pph.
Logic being that they're gonna move the same number with either alternative.
Huh?
Snow sheds for both alternatives.
Doppelmayr was at the meeting as well and said that the towers and cable would be capable of moving 4,000 pph, all you'd have to do is add more cabins.

!BIGGEST ALARM!
The gravel bit at the mouth of BCC had state funding at one time for 3,000 parking stalls. What happened to that money?
With the bus alternative it's 1,500.
With the gondola alternative it's 600.
My friend reported that UDOT is planning on 300 stalls if the gondola happens.
Huh?
No matter what we do for the Cottonwoods we must secure parking for carpooling and mass transit.
We have watched most prime available land get sold for McMansions for years.
This is the last big chunk that's not Federally controlled and we need to lobby for much more acreage at the gravel pit, a perfect hub for the Cottonwoods, than their shortsighted minds have in mind...

Whatever one's opinion on transportation in the Canyon's, please comment on this gravel pit oversight by the Sept. 3 deadline, eh?

A lot of respect for your service up there, and thanks

I am not seeing how a Gondola would help with the randomly hitting road closure issues you mentioned previously.
>cars that get stuck will still be stuck...and getting those people to an evacuation Gondola would be troublesome .
>having a Gondola for emergencies ,as was stated in your earlier mention, would be extremely rare.
>can't get to a Gondola when there's inter lodge...so it's not really an option there.

Sounds like better preemptive control work investment would be the key to keeping you guys safe. (like air forced control devices at the worst spots, and using them in coordination with closed roads)

many would have to go through the line of traffic on wasatch blvd to get to the Gondola as well.

Wasatch and LCC road widening with dedicated bus lanes seems like the logical choice...though bus service has been so weak in the past its hard to get people on board.

I love the idea of a tire check station too....you would have volunteers line up ,as suggested before...for a 10-15% cut on the fines /or a free ski pass if fines are a bad idea.(really should have them turn around imo ,not fine them)

Bussing has been convenient last few years . No matter what ,on POW days it'll be insane, no Gondola would stop that. And, a dedicated Bus lane would be an attraction to use that route.

To make busses more attractive the resorts should throw up some more lockers... don't need full scale indoor facilities, just somewhere to toss extra gear and stuff with a carport style roof and some benches.

Anyways ,keep up the good work and lets hope for a great next season!

[Dantheman]

To make busses more attractive the resorts should throw up some more lockers... don't need full scale indoor facilities, just somewhere to toss extra gear and stuff with a carport style roof and some benches.

I wouldn't count on the resorts to make it easier to bring your own food and beer.

[DigSki]

I wouldn't count on the resorts to make it easier to bring your own food and beer.

Solitude has the "answer" to that - $10/day lockers. And you can't just leave your shoes / bag out, it gets taken to the lost and found almost immediately. So cool.

[snowaddict91]

Solitude has the "answer" to that - $10/day lockers. And you can't just leave your shoes / bag out, it gets taken to the lost and found almost immediately. So cool.

When the Bird redid the tram plaza a few years ago, I stashed my shoes on top of the lockers once or twice. A week later there was a fucking slanted board installed.

[Touring_Sedan]

I met one of the owners of the gravel pit earlier this summer. He told me there have been zero formal talks with UDOT about buying any portion of it, and there is certainly not any kind of agreement in place. He said it will take 5-10 more years to finish mining the land (depending on the specific section) and they do not plan to sell until they have taken all the gravel they can get.

The original plan for the gravel pit, dating back to the Tavaci days, was that in order for the new owner and developer to purchase the property a significant portion was to be turned into a mobility hub and mixed use. SLCO and Cottonwood Heights both pledged that they would hold the new owners to this before they would sign off on any zoning changes. Not sure what happened to that idea.

[mooseknuckle]

The comment from owner of gravel pit sounds a lot like posturing for eminent domain taking. Happens all the time. They’d rather fight it out on the appraisals than quarry the stone I’d have to imagine.

[Dantheman]

When the Bird redid the tram plaza a few years ago, I stashed my shoes on top of the lockers once or twice. A week later there was a fucking slanted board installed.

That's the kind of corporate passive-aggressive behavior that really makes you feel like a valued customer.

[baron]

When the Bird redid the tram plaza a few years ago, I stashed my shoes on top of the lockers once or twice. A week later there was a fucking slanted board installed.

that was just to make it easier to dust up there

[skifishbum]

i drove up the lcc once last year
and came over from the big a few to gits to silly fk
thread needs sum

poundkeybakebrothers

[Mudfoot]

I don’t know where you got these numbers but as soon as snowbird hits 4,950 skiers the tram like exceeds 120 minutes and gadzoom exceeds 45.

If those kind of lift lines become standard I will quit area skiing the Wasatch. Standing in line is part of skiing, but it shouldn't be over 80% of the on-slope experience.

[jtran10]

They still should just start by checking tires.