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  1. #1701
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    471
    Back in the eighties we'd build snow caves in the cornices along the ridge of Dutches. One winter there was a multiple room cave so more than one group could camp.
    Access was from the BCC store, now a real estate and prival outfit.
    The 9990 lift was controversial prior to construction. I attended an on site show and tell with the FS, mountain manager from American skiing and various other groups. At that time the consensus was top of the lift on the bench below 9990, lacking a view of Dutches. Wasn't done because the goal was expansion onto adjacent public land which the forest service wouldn't give the ski area.
    Minimal solution would be a beeping beacon sign, with a White Pine style exit gate, much better.

    BTW, I remember Ned Randolph and Jimmie with his homemade whippet for skiing lines no one had thought of. I think Ned skied tele?

  2. #1702
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Wasatch Back: 7000'
    Posts
    12,966
    I would be in favor of a gate at Saddleback. Makes sense. Early season people ducking the rope and skinning up anyway. I have lived here too long and have known/seen too many people either get seriously injured or die in avalanches accessed by the current gate. I would bet money that something changes there before the beginning of next season
    “How does it feel to be the greatest guitarist in the world? I don’t know, go ask Rory Gallagher”. — Jimi Hendrix

  3. #1703
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    2,456
    For the record, it is 100% PCMR's decision whether they want to have gates open or closed. The gate is on private land and the Forest Service has no say in their decision either way.

    Ben Kraja, a U.S. Forest Service official who manages special use permits for ski areas in the Cottonwood Canyons, said the agency does not govern whether the gate, which is on private land, is open or shut.“It’s entirely up to the ski resort,” Kraja said of managing backcountry access gates. “We don’t mandate it, but we do encourage the ski resorts to provide some sort of access to public land. It’s totally up to them — it’s on private land, it’s their own private gate.”

    https://www.parkrecord.com/news/summ...ets-attention/

  4. #1704
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasatch
    Posts
    7,243
    So in some ways it’s the same as going up to my ski hill on a 1-2’ dump day with a Dodge Charger or minivan and all seasons. People slide off the road, collide and deaths may occur. Similarly IMO - leaving backcountry gate with no equipment or knowledge or a partner is a bad choice

    Now I’m of the belief that not all of this is ever going to be policed. Let’s examine last weekend at my home resort. Gate was closed with ropes up for control work. People tried and some did duck the rope. Now ski patrol can’t do control work or these people may get buried. The rope line is long and they found spots to duck. I can’t expect patrol to be at every point on the line

    Same with gates. Should someone have to be there all day like a lifeguard?

    There is a point where some folks should not be in the canyon on a pow day, or going out gates with no gear or ducking lines into big resort exposure that has not been controlled

    It’s a learning experience and we all make mistakes as evidenced by my ducking ropes at Alta in 2010 or spending a night down by the river after going out a gate at revelstoke.

    Hopefully we live and learn and don’t impact others, hurt someone else or die.

    But if it’s a 16% grade and there is 6 inches on the road turn your minivan around. If it’s a gate in considerable Avy danger and you have no gear, partner or knowledge turn around

    That said accidents will happen and we just try to learn. But policing everything will never happen. We have to learn and police ourselves. I also ask people when I see them on the road, at the gate or trying to duck the rope. But I’m just another skier trying to balance risk. I don’t duck ropes, I got snow tires and have Avy gear and training. I’m trying to reduce risk as much as possible and come home to my family. I also try to help others learn when I can

    Be safe out there! Not a rant, just some thoughts from Jack Handy....


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I need to go to Utah.
    Utah?
    Yeah, Utah. It's wedged in between Wyoming and Nevada. You've seen pictures of it, right?

    So after 15 years we finally made it to Utah.....


    Thanks BCSAR and POWMOW Ski Patrol for rescues

    8, 17, 13, 18, 16, 18, 20, 19, 16, 24, 32, 35

    2021/2022 (13/15)

  5. #1705
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Wasatch
    Posts
    6,256
    Also: D-Roc. Thanks for sharing your experience of getting caught. I'm glad you're still around and hope we can grab a few turns together once you've got the knee sorted out.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

  6. #1706
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    3,485
    Quote Originally Posted by whyturn View Post
    Same with gates. Should someone have to be there all day like a lifeguard?
    I would love to see a non-profit/volunteer org do exactly that - i am envisioning a crusty old dude in a beach chair at the top of the bootpack just laying into people who shouldnt be up there. Not affiliated with the resort or FS, just a good samaritan educating the uninitiated. No authority to stop people from exercising their constitutional right to be a moron, but more in your face then a UAC billboard & a skull/crossbones gate.

  7. #1707
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    SLC, Utah
    Posts
    4,283
    Quote Originally Posted by mc_roon View Post
    I would love to see a non-profit/volunteer org do exactly that - i am envisioning a crusty old dude in a beach chair at the top of the bootpack just laying into people who shouldnt be up there. Not affiliated with the resort or FS, just a good samaritan educating the uninitiated. No authority to stop people from exercising their constitutional right to be a moron, but more in your face then a UAC billboard & a skull/crossbones gate.
    i'd take a shift up there. i don't have the gravitas of some of the older, more experienced members of our community, but i would be more than willing to sit up there and chat with people and maybe drink a beer while doing it. great fucking idea.

  8. #1708
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    2,456
    Quote Originally Posted by mc_roon View Post
    I would love to see a non-profit/volunteer org do exactly that - i am envisioning a crusty old dude in a beach chair at the top of the bootpack just laying into people who shouldnt be up there. Not affiliated with the resort or FS, just a good samaritan educating the uninitiated. No authority to stop people from exercising their constitutional right to be a moron, but more in your face then a UAC billboard & a skull/crossbones gate.
    The PCMR clientele doesn't like to be scolded by locals, if they wanted that they would have gone to Alta

  9. #1709
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    slc
    Posts
    17,891
    At the risk of being insensitive and overly morbid: leave the bodies up there like they do on Everest?

  10. #1710
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sandy, Utah
    Posts
    14,410
    Quote Originally Posted by Phall View Post
    USFS has restrictions on what they can and cannot close, for public access I believe. That being said, they close areas for wildfires, but I'm not aware of anywhere in the US where the USFS can or does cloes trailheads in winter for avy danger. The PCMR gate is on PCMR property and is not governed by the USFS as I had once thought. I believe this is the apples to oranges situation. I think it would be a MASSIVE undertaking to shut trailheads due to Avy danger, and with how the USFS is funded, traffic issues, lack of USFS LE, etc, it will never be able to be enforced in BCC/LCC. I'm no statistics wiz but I'd say that gate has the highest ratio of user vs. fatality than any other trail in the Wasatch, and with three deaths in just over a year they are feeling community pressure.

    I'd love to see that gate stay open, and I think a White Pine type shack on top with beacon checks, SP signout, etc would be the best option.

    ON top of all this has there been any resolution to the PCMR Patrol issues going on?
    I agree impossible for usfs to control trailheads.

    Also agree with a snowbird like situation Al la gad2 (white pine). They control when it opens and you have to check in to go. It won't prevent all deaths but should minimize the riff raff with the realization that the reason they are checking in is because they may never come home.

    Vibes to the Utah crew for the recent avies/deaths. Never fun and with pent up covid, low snow, well. Stay safe y'all

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using TGR Forums mobile app

  11. #1711
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    SLC, Utah
    Posts
    4,283
    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    At the risk of being insensitive and overly morbid: leave the bodies up there like they do on Everest?
    i'm a big fan of memorial posters - "In loving memory of _____. S/he exited out this gate just like you are doing now" etc., with pictures of the deceased (while they were alive, obviously)

  12. #1712
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Park City
    Posts
    1,857
    People die every year at angels landing. People die every year on Portal. We would never think it appropriate to close those. I see no distinction here.

  13. #1713
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Wasatch
    Posts
    6,256
    Quote Originally Posted by Canada1 View Post
    People die every year at angels landing. People die every year on Portal. We would never think it appropriate to close those. I see no distinction here.
    Vail isn't out $11 per hour in patroller pay to sled the bodies out in those instances.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

  14. #1714
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasatch
    Posts
    7,243
    Quote Originally Posted by mc_roon View Post
    I would love to see a non-profit/volunteer org do exactly that - i am envisioning a crusty old dude in a beach chair at the top of the bootpack just laying into people who shouldnt be up there. Not affiliated with the resort or FS, just a good samaritan educating the uninitiated. No authority to stop people from exercising their constitutional right to be a moron, but more in your face then a UAC billboard & a skull/crossbones gate.
    Hey you! Yeah you young whipper snapper. Did you see the Avy forecast this morning? Are you sure you want to go out in those big zones? Show me your beacon and gear! Hey, where is your helmet. I told you last time no helmet, no access.

    Dudes like just laying into them in a crusty “ I remember when we did this on 200 cm with rear entry.

    “ Where’s your buddy! “

    What do you mean you left your beacon in the car. Your car is on the lot. We know where your car is. We are trying to ensure your buddy can dig you out if we have to. Dang man, come on help me out here. I don’t sit here for the tan!

    Volunteers needed
    Experience required
    Crusty, backcountry experience and don’t take no crap.

    Perks, sun yelling at people and keeping them safe


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I need to go to Utah.
    Utah?
    Yeah, Utah. It's wedged in between Wyoming and Nevada. You've seen pictures of it, right?

    So after 15 years we finally made it to Utah.....


    Thanks BCSAR and POWMOW Ski Patrol for rescues

    8, 17, 13, 18, 16, 18, 20, 19, 16, 24, 32, 35

    2021/2022 (13/15)

  15. #1715
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NCW
    Posts
    4,579
    Quote Originally Posted by Canada1 View Post
    People die every year at angels landing.
    no, they don't

    Quote Originally Posted by Canada1 View Post
    People die every year on Portal. We would never think it appropriate to close those. I see no distinction here.
    maybe so for portal, but the distinction is that the exposure on both of those is obvious and the terrain referenced in this case appears relatively benign such that it lures unexpecting riders into a very dangerous situation.

  16. #1716
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    2,456
    Quote Originally Posted by jackattack View Post
    unexpecting riders into a very dangerous situation.
    Calling them "unexpected" is not giving them enough credit. There are skull and crossbones signs and it is very clear to anyone leaving the gates that they are entering uncontrolled avy terrain

  17. #1717
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Park City
    Posts
    1,857
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirshredalot View Post
    Vail isn't out $11 per hour in patroller pay to sled the bodies out in those instances.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
    People put themselves at risk responding to injuries on both. Both attract similar #’s of low experience riders and hikers. I think if you talked about closing Angels Landing, lawsuits would ensue. We should close whole enchilada too. Heck, half the riders on that trail are over their heads and rescue / recovery is probably out there every week at a minimum.

  18. #1718
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    slc
    Posts
    17,891
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirshredalot View Post
    Vail isn't out $11 per hour in patroller pay to sled the bodies out in those instances.
    I see what you did there....

  19. #1719
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NCW
    Posts
    4,579
    Quote Originally Posted by Benneke10 View Post
    Calling them "unexpected" is not giving them enough credit. There are skull and crossbones signs and it is very clear to anyone leaving the gates that they are entering uncontrolled avy terrain
    right, so ignorant? inexperienced? inebriated?

    still, the terrain distinction stands

  20. #1720
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    slc
    Posts
    17,891
    Quote Originally Posted by jackattack View Post
    right, so ignorant? inexperienced? inebriated?

    still, the terrain distinction stands
    Most of the people that boot out that gate with no gear probably have no idea that mellow-looking 35* slopes are the ones most likely to kill you. However, this latest fatality was not one of those people.

  21. #1721
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    funland
    Posts
    5,250
    Quote Originally Posted by Canada1 View Post
    People put themselves at risk responding to injuries on both. Both attract similar #’s of low experience riders and hikers. I think if you talked about closing Angels Landing, lawsuits would ensue. We should close whole enchilada too. Heck, half the riders on that trail are over their heads and rescue / recovery is probably out there every week at a minimum.
    this is a tough appeal you are trying to make considering that you are asking a private landowner in northern utah, a national park in southwest utah, and a forest service & blm unit in southeast utah to all collaborate on managing their different lands in the same manner.

  22. #1722
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    393
    Everyone should be allowed to use explosives in the backcountry. problem solved.

  23. #1723
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Driggs
    Posts
    689
    Ever heard of a piss bomb?

  24. #1724
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    5,846
    Quote Originally Posted by Benneke10 View Post
    The PCMR clientele doesn't like to be scolded by locals, if they wanted that they would have gone to Alta
    lol, golf clap

  25. #1725
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    393
    Quote Originally Posted by new yabyum View Post
    Ever heard of a piss bomb?
    nah, I got a Dyno Nobel hookup.

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