WASATCH STOKE, CONDITIONS, OBSERVATIONS and ASSORTED DRIVAL 20-21

[HammySlapwagons]

Biggest issue with the Gondola for me is the lack of necessary uphill capacity.

[jmills]

Go read the EIS. UDOT says the gondola will move 1,050 people per hour, while the remaining 2,250 people per hour that need to go up the canyon during peak times will have to travel in private vehicles on the road. The road will still be a clusterfuck when it's storming. Estimated travel time using the gondola is around 60 minutes, while enhanced bus service+bus lane is 36 minutes.

P&R Gondola: $546 million, 63-minute travel time, 3 transfers
https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.uta...0_2020_FIN.pdf

La Caille Gondola: $576 million, 55-59 minute travel time, 2-3 transfers
https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.uta...0_2020_FIN.pdf

Enhanced bus service+bus lane: $481 million, 36-minute travel time, 1 transfer
https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.uta...0_2020_FIN.pdf


But, yes, we should totally go with the slowest, most expensive option, and the only one with viewshed impacts, because the gondola is "cool." My money says cost overruns for the gondola will be at least +25% above UDOT's estimates. The cog rail's estimated cost is over $1 billion and there's no way that shit is happening.

Here's the link to everything in case you're interested: https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.uta...-alternatives/

When Trax was being built the price to park downtown spiked. Does the 210 become a toll road to push people to a cheaper and shittier option?

[Benneke10]

When Trax was being built the price to park downtown spiked. Does the 210 become a toll road to push people to a cheaper and shittier option?

210 is destined to become a toll road regardless of whether or not the state can come up with other options

[Boissal]

Go read the EIS. UDOT says the gondola will move 1,050 people per hour, while the remaining 2,250 people per hour that need to go up the canyon during peak times will have to travel in private vehicles on the road. The road will still be a clusterfuck when it's storming. Estimated travel time using the gondola is around 60 minutes, while enhanced bus service+bus lane is 36 minutes.

1050 people/h and about 60 minutes to cover 3500' of vert over 8 miles... Sigh. Diverting 1/3 of the road traffic means the line to get in or out of LCC on a pow day will go from 4.5 hours long to 3 hours long...

The funicular in Tignes moves 3000 bros an hour, 7 minutes to go up 3000' over 2.2 miles. It was built in the late 80s. If this were truly about fixing the problem the solutions would be at scale. These pathetic proposals basically amount to a selection of tiny spoons aimed at digging a giant hole. Completely inadequate but they make for nice messaging options to convince the constituency that something is being done while massive piles of money get shoveled into the appropriate pockets...

[jmills]

1050 people/h and about 60 minutes to cover 3500' of vert over 8 miles... Sigh. Diverting 1/3 of the road traffic means the line to get in or out of LCC on a pow day will go from 4.5 hours long to 3 hours long...

The funicular in Tignes moves 3000 bros an hour, 7 minutes to go up 3000' over 2.2 miles. It was built in the late 80s. If this were truly about fixing the problem the solutions would be at scale. These pathetic proposals basically amount to a selection of tiny spoons aimed at digging a giant hole. Completely inadequate but they make for nice messaging options to convince the constituency that something is being done while massive piles of money get shoveled into the appropriate pockets...

Solutions? I can’t believe this magic ticket hasn’t solved it already

[D-Roc]

^ its the golden ticket, get it right... lol

Man wind was hustlin' this morning on the ridgelines, id say about 45+ at times coming out of the east. The leeward aspects and some protected spots skied excellent over towards Sunset / RP!

[Dantheman]

Haha when I read the article, my first reaction was that Cox likely got a nice campaign contribution from the proponents of the gondola.

Glad to see nothing's changed with Mormon politics

I'm surprised there isn't a proposal to build a temple on top of the parking structure.

210 is destined to become a toll road regardless of whether or not the state can come up with other options

Yep.

1050 people/h and about 60 minutes to cover 3500' of vert over 8 miles... Sigh. Diverting 1/3 of the road traffic means the line to get in or out of LCC on a pow day will go from 4.5 hours long to 3 hours long...

The funicular in Tignes moves 3000 bros an hour, 7 minutes to go up 3000' over 2.2 miles. It was built in the late 80s. If this were truly about fixing the problem the solutions would be at scale. These pathetic proposals basically amount to a selection of tiny spoons aimed at digging a giant hole. Completely inadequate but they make for nice messaging options to convince the constituency that something is being done while massive piles of money get shoveled into the appropriate pockets...

2.2 miles vs. 8 miles is the issue. My armchair-expert understanding is that, on average, capacity is inversely proportional to length. Whistler P2P is the same tri-cable system and has much higher capacity because it's also much shorter. If built the LCC gondola would be longest in the world.

Personally, I think they should just shed the road at critical locations and call it a day. Think about how bad lift lines and BC/trailhead crowding would be if they implemented a transit solution that was actually effective. The red snake and limited parking capacity is the only thing preserving the actual skiing. In terms of net economic benefit we'd probably be much better off spending half a billion dollars fixing the semi-daily parking lot on I-15 (~300,000 vehicles per day), but what the hell do I know....


ETA: I wonder how Solitude and Brighton feel about Alta/Snowbird getting a half billion-dollar public subsidy while transit solutions for BCC aren't even on the table yet?

[DigSki]

Personally, I think they should just shed the road at critical locations and call it a day. Think about how bad lift lines and BC/trailhead crowding would be if they implemented a transit solution that was actually effective. The red snake and limited parking capacity is the only thing preserving the actual skiing. In terms of net economic benefit we'd probably be much better off spending half a billion dollars fixing the semi-daily parking lot on I-15 (~300,000 vehicles per day), but what the hell do I know....

Yep, 1000% agree.

ETA: I wonder how Solitude and Brighton feel about Alta/Snowbird getting a half billion-dollar public subsidy while transit solutions for BCC aren't even on the table yet?

Maybe happy? UDOT spent some money in BCC over the summer and completely fucked traffic with that Donut Falls light. A couple weekends ago traffic was backed up well into Solitude's parking lot and probably back to Brighton...then it was full speed after the light. Good work UDOT...

[altacoup]

I'm surprised there isn't a proposal to build a temple on top of the parking structure.



Yep.



2.2 miles vs. 8 miles is the issue. My armchair-expert understanding is that, on average, capacity is inversely proportional to length. Whistler P2P is the same tri-cable system and has much higher capacity because it's also much shorter. If built the LCC gondola would be longest in the world.

Personally, I think they should just shed the road at critical locations and call it a day. Think about how bad lift lines and BC/trailhead crowding would be if they implemented a transit solution that was actually effective. The red snake and limited parking capacity is the only thing preserving the actual skiing. In terms of net economic benefit we'd probably be much better off spending half a billion dollars fixing the semi-daily parking lot on I-15 (~300,000 vehicles per day), but what the hell do I know....


ETA: I wonder how Solitude and Brighton feel about Alta/Snowbird getting a half billion-dollar public subsidy while transit solutions for BCC aren't even on the table yet?

I think solitude is more worried that sfb might ski lcc if the gondola is completed.

[Benneke10]

I wonder how Solitude and Brighton feel about Alta/Snowbird getting a half billion-dollar public subsidy while transit solutions for BCC aren't even on the table yet?

LCC: Spend $500mil-1billion to make the traffic slightly less bad while making a hideous mess along the way

BCC: Build a crosswalk that adds up to an hour to the red snake because a bridge or a tunnel would be too disruptive to the natural qualities of the canyon...

[jmedslc]

I read in the BCCA meeting notes last week that on the first Saturday in January there were 1000 more cars in big Cottonwood than in Little Cottonwood. That’s for one day!

[new yabyum]

As with all things Utah, keep a sharp eye on Mr's Hughes and Niedermyer looking to profit.

[tBatt]

when you look at the complexity of all the options, living in a dorm with a bunch of people young enough to be your children doesn't sound so bad.

might not scale well enough to be a sustainable long term solution.

It seems to be working for Trainer

[Dantheman]

Maybe happy? UDOT spent some money in BCC over the summer and completely fucked traffic with that Donut Falls light. A couple weekends ago traffic was backed up well into Solitude's parking lot and probably back to Brighton...then it was full speed after the light. Good work UDOT...

Hah, yeah, that pedestrian crossing has been a disaster.

[skifishbum]

I think solitude is more worried that sfb might ski lcc if the gondola is completed.

I laughed
Mostly cause I'm a ski em all
Free skier

[Boissal]

2.2 miles vs. 8 miles is the issue. My armchair-expert understanding is that, on average, capacity is inversely proportional to length. Whistler P2P is the same tri-cable system and has much higher capacity because it's also much shorter. If built the LCC gondola would be longest in the world.

Personally, I think they should just shed the road at critical locations and call it a day. Think about how bad lift lines and BC/trailhead crowding would be if they implemented a transit solution that was actually effective. The red snake and limited parking capacity is the only thing preserving the actual skiing. In terms of net economic benefit we'd probably be much better off spending half a billion dollars fixing the semi-daily parking lot on I-15 (~300,000 vehicles per day), but what the hell do I know....


ETA: I wonder how Solitude and Brighton feel about Alta/Snowbird getting a half billion-dollar public subsidy while transit solutions for BCC aren't even on the table yet?

Very much agree.
The funi is an example of a solution that could be implemented if the goal was to really fix a traffic problem. Huge costs, huge engineering challenges, huge rewards. Not saying it's applicable in this case but it's the scope required to truly deal with the issue presented by a long ass narrow canyon that can't take a super-highway.
If it's a matter of dealing with avalanches on the existing road without dealing with traffic then sheds are the only option.
The gondola is just window dressing but something shiny is needed to showcase the ability of SLC to burn huge piles of cash, the only thing that really matters for a potential olympic city.

[jtran10]

I'm surprised there isn't a proposal to build a temple on top of the parking structure.


Personally, I think they should just shed the road at critical locations and call it a day. Think about how bad lift lines and BC/trailhead crowding would be if they implemented a transit solution that was actually effective. The red snake and limited parking capacity is the only thing preserving the actual skiing. In terms of net economic benefit we'd probably be much better off spending half a billion dollars fixing the semi-daily parking lot on I-15 (~300,000 vehicles per day), but what the hell do I know....

That's really the crux of why this is all so stupid

[altacoup]

Yep, 1000% agree.



Maybe happy? UDOT spent some money in BCC over the summer and completely fucked traffic with that Donut Falls light. A couple weekends ago traffic was backed up well into Solitude's parking lot and probably back to Brighton...then it was full speed after the light. Good work UDOT...

Udot has totally and completely fucked up everything they’ve touched in the canyons during the last 5 years. I’ve filed some complaints and was even blocked from their canyons alert Twitter. The level of incompetency is staggering.

[jtran10]

Udot has totally and completely fucked up everything they’ve touched in the canyons during the last 5 years. I’ve filed some complaints and was even blocked from their canyons alert Twitter. The level of incompetency is staggering.

I really wouldn't be surprised as mentioned earlier: the incompetency is all just a ploy to get the gondola so the mormon biz leaders pad their wallets with some extra $$$ and we have a new "attraction" to make our olympic bid better, and then in turn pad more biz leader pockets

[Benneke10]

I’ve filed some complaints and was even blocked from their canyons alert Twitter. .

^^ Goals right there!

I'm somewhat new here, were there any events in LCC in the 02 Olympics? Would LCC even be suitable for any Olympic events?

[jtran10]

^^ Goals right there!

I'm somewhat new here, were there any events in LCC in the 02 Olympics? Would LCC even be suitable for any Olympic events?

no events in 02 due to transit issues. Snowbird would be a great downhill venue, and I'm sure they are going to want more events than just that. Alta, who knows.

Edit to say that it would be "great" in that as far as I know it meets the requirements of the IOC for a venue and is steep. Beyond that I don't know anything about ski racing, nor do I want any olympic events in LCC personally. Keep them at the same venues as last time.

[telefreewasatch]

Gonna bump this:

Train is so wrong for so many reasons.
I don't care who benefits from it but we shoulda put a gondola in a long time ago.
We need the road, but we need a fire escape.
It doesn't have to be one lift but several like the Collins lift is.
Thus moving more people per hour.
This is what I sent the CWC in October, and our Governor this morning:

Hello,
My name is Jim Collinson. My family and I have lived in LCC for 30 years, and I have worked here as a ski patrolman, avalanche forecaster, rescuer and dog handler for 40.
The most terrifying moments of my life have been performing avalanche road rescues in the canyon, especially at night.
And I've been involved in many.
To address safety concerns and traffic congestion I feel that both a minimum of snow sheds AND a gondola are necessary.
Snow sheds under the earliest and most frequent running slide paths will mitigate but not eliminate rescues. And when they run they will allow forecasters say "time to close the road." Not "the road just closed itself" and have bumper to bumper vehicles under adjacent paths.
If we do not move the public in a safer manner than the highway during increasing hazard there will be catastrophes involving many people.
Avalanche hazard and weather will not affect a gondola's ability to move people and goods quickly and safely.
The current UDOT gondola proposal does not fit the bill at 1,050 people an hour with parking at the gravel pit and does not have my support but the Gondolaworks proposal appears to.
If it can truly move 4,000+ people per hour and park them at the base terminal then it is a no brainer for many, not just me.

If one must choose between gondola and snow sheds, I vote gondola first with snow shed plans for the near future.
White Pine Chutes #s 1 + 2 are the earliest runners, usually.
They enjoy a steep hillside above which I assume would make construction costs less that Little Pine or White Pine paths.
I suggest starting small with one shed covering WP 1 + 2.

As an aside, if one believes in climate change there will be no snow in Summit County or the temps to make it in say 20 years.
Yet most of our hotels, condos, eateries, etc. are located there.
We need to spin bull wheels not bald tires to get these guests to upper BCC and LCC where the last island of snow will be around these parts.
So I am in full support of connecting Park City with the Cottonwoods via a gondola.
Thank you for accepting input on a solution to a very real set of problems for us here in LCC,
Jim Collinson

[PaulC08]

Anyone recommend a local shop with some good deals on last years skis right now? Would love to pick up something 50% off in 105ish width. Or hit me with your used offers! ~170-183 length

Not sure what type of ski you’re looking for, but I have some lightly used (less than 25 days) ON3P Kartel 108s in 177. Custom white with the softer layup. Mounted twice (pivots, then shifts). Been putting off selling, so maybe this is the nudge I need. HMU if you’re into it.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Phall]

Probably complete speculation but I did hear a rumor for someone who coaches kids racing at the bird that it is eyed for a location for the Olympics, and I hear rumor of flattening the top of the K12/GS and having that be the start of the DH.

[Mudfoot]

I read in the BCCA meeting notes last week that on the first Saturday in January there were 1000 more cars in big Cottonwood than in Little Cottonwood. That’s for one day!

That's nothing, if you look at the summer numbers for BCC they'll make you puke.