WASATCH STOKE, CONDITIONS, OBSERVATIONS and ASSORTED DRIVAL 20-21

[Boissal]

Yes, I feel dirty writing that.

It's how things are set up in Yurp and it works pretty damn well. No need to feel dirty, it's only a matter of time until it happens here (just like ebikes). No sense in standing against the tide and drowning...

[Dantheman]

Yes, I feel dirty writing that.

If you're going to do something wrong, do it right. Might as well put a gondi all the way up BCC, too. It's only 18 miles, NBD, I'm sure Doppelmayr will tell you they can do it.

Man, what I would give to discuss this issue with some Doppelmayr engineers over beers off the record.

Have they ever said why the operating costs of the shorter gondola from the LCC park and ride has higher yearly operating costs than the LaCaille option? Both options include bus from the mobility hubs so shouldn't be related to operating the bus links. Yet, the shorter park-n-ride gondola is $1.9m more per winter and $2m more per summer to operate? Doesn't make sense to me.

I'm sure it's buried deep in the EIS somewhere. My guess would be fewer buses from the mobility hubs. The P&R gondola had 1,500 spaces at the gravel pit and 1,000 at 94th&Highland. La Caille gondola reduces that to 600 spaces and 400 spaces, respectively.

[brutah]

It's how things are set up in Yurp and it works pretty damn well. No need to feel dirty, it's only a matter of time until it happens here (just like ebikes). No sense in standing against the tide and drowning...

Ya i just felt dirty because I was against SkiLink and very vocal about it when they rolled it out in the late 00s. Shoot, I even tried to organize a protest ski tour from PC to Alta and back just to show that lifts weren't needed. Now I kinda think its the only solution that makes sense.

I know it would cost a lot of money, but it would allow the ski resorts to sell more lift tickets and I know Alta and Snowbird are pushing hard for that. The current system actually keeps crowds down because there isn't a way to keep packing people up the canyon once they run out of parking. With a gondola, I suspect they could increase how many people can get up the canyons and like i've said many times, I don't think the resorts see long lift lines as problematic as the skiers do.

What shouldn't happen is the current solutions being presented. The state of utah shouldn't just cater to one resort/canyon and the USFS shouldn't let the resorts do whatever they want. They need to consider the greater picture, ddaaaa future and make it work for everyone, otherwise, we'll end up with a lot of stupid lifts that will likely be obsolete in the next couple decades like a beer can tram to the top of honeycomb or baldy. That's why I think they need to build gondolas with summer recreation in mind first.

[brutah]

If you're going to do something wrong, do it right. Might as well put a gondi all the way up BCC, too. It's only 18 miles, NBD, I'm sure Doppelmayr will tell you they can do it.

Man, what I would give to discuss this issue with some Doppelmayr engineers over beers off the record.



I'm sure it's buried deep in the EIS somewhere. My guess would be fewer buses from the mobility hubs. The P&R gondola had 1,500 spaces at the gravel pit and 1,000 at 94th&Highland. La Caille gondola reduces that to 600 spaces and 400 spaces, respectively.

I think a gondi up BCC makes sense too, but heard through the grapevine that putting a lift up BCC won't work. That canyon is narrower down low and has more twists and turns whereas LCC is pretty much a straight shot up. Make access to BCC on gondis via the LCC gondi and PC. Then close it to most private car traffic and run buses up and down it ala Zion canyon.

[Vt-Freeheel]

^^^That's a lot of cabbage, but good thinking. The cog rail failed because of cost.

Huh? What?

[Dantheman]

I think a gondi up BCC makes sense too, but heard through the grapevine that putting a lift up BCC won't work.

That was a joke. At 8 miles LCC would be the longest in the world by miles (current record holder, Zlatibor Gold in Serbia, is 5.6 miles). I don't think 18 miles is remotely feasible.

[telefreewasatch]

That was a joke. At 8 miles LCC would be the longest in the world by miles (current record holder, Zlatibor Gold in Serbia, is 5.6 miles). I don't think 18 miles is remotely feasible.

Please quit pumping misinformation about gondola carrying capacity and line lengths.
It's only 10? miles to Brighton via LCC and another few to Park City.
In 6 lifts. Not 1.
Where are your carrying capacity #s coming from?
Not Doppelmayr.
Finally guessed who you are...Carl Fischer?
As Boissal said "Woulda happened in Yurp long ago."

[mall walker]

this thread always sucks shit in the summer and this summer is no exception!

[schindlerpiste]

We are on a roll today!

[#######]

There's a lot of solutions; the easiest ATMO is to just stop skiing LCC/BCC.

[hatchgreenchile]

Man, what I would give to discuss this issue with some Doppelmayr engineers over beers off the record.

...no skin in game, and not an engineer, but are they supposed to be terrified by the challenges of building a LCC line?

Doppelmayr managed to build this 3S in 2019:


Their La Paz cross city line already moves 30K people an hour through 24 stations.

You could talk to the Poma guys, looks like some tough terrain to work with:


I'm kind of with Brutah...might as well go big. Build a gondola up from Weber State -> Snowbasin while you're at it.

[whyturn]

Stoke










Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[muted reborn]

A gondola up LCC is crazy, in the sense there will be nothing like it in America. Why not talk about it now? I'm enjoying the comments by DanTheMan, AltaCoup, telefreewasatch, etc. The discussion is even polite.

You guys spend infinite pages here during winter about where/when to just fucking park to ski, let the people talk about potentially the worlds longest gondola, and all the drama around it, this summer.

[Shredhead]

A gondola is obsolete before the first spade is turned.
Fix the road with bus lanes and sheds.
Then autonomous electric micro buses will pick up at your door.
Limit cars with a permit system that requires awd, snow tires and half a brain.

It’s the whole first/last mile deal. You want to keep people from ever getting into a car.

[bigdude2468]

well in the decades i been here it aint being addressed in a git it done manner
snow sheds seem like a solvable problem too
too bad the mountain accord pissed away 8 mill of enough to do one and couldnt accomplish fixing any problems or even addressing the one as you claim "easily" solvable
im gittin a "not that guy" udot sticker this year cause itll save em from lookin down at my high dollar snows
and tie the yeti slap collection togather nicely

When this process started four or five years ago I sent a polite email to Town of Alta Mayor Harris Sondak suggesting enforcement of traction laws would go a long way to alleviating problems, I recall calling it "low hanging fruit". His reply suggested I was a dumb ass, leave the solution to the experts and UPD does not have the budget to have officers stationed at the mouth of the canyon. I have asked the Town Marshall why they don't enforce it on snowy days, not allow 2WD vehicles from driving down the canyon etc and all I got was a blank stare.

How UPD can't place an officer at the mouth of the canyon for five hours in the morning but can dispatch multiple units, tow trucks, fire trucks and ambulances when there is an accident makes no sense.

How about they charge $25 for a sticker that gives access to the canyons? no sticker no access. Rental car companies will figure it out, it's not our problem. When I buy a 4WD only because of LCC and spend $1400 on dedicated wheels and snow tires I am doing my part, lets make everyone do it.

[skifishbum]

Thanks a lot, but tgapp is hooking me up.

if it doesnt haz cool stickers
stop by and ill slap it up
and vibes if its nols

[Dantheman]

Please quit pumping misinformation about gondola carrying capacity and line lengths.
It's only 10? miles to Brighton via LCC and another few to Park City.
In 6 lifts. Not 1.
Where are your carrying capacity #s coming from?
Not Doppelmayr.
Finally guessed who you are...Carl Fischer?
As Boissal said "Woulda happened in Yurp long ago."

As noted, the 18-mile BCC gondola was a joke post. The road is 18 miles long from the mouth to Brighton. Sure, you could bypass the S-curves and some other spots to shorten it a bit, but it would still be long AF, at least ~14-15 miles. Yes, it's shorter from LCC or PC, but either one of those options carries its own set of issues. But, I'd rather not waste any more time and keystrokes discussing it since it's purely a pipe dream at the moment.

What other "misinformation" have I posted? The carrying capacity numbers and estimated travel times for the LCC gondola and the bus alternative are straight from UDOT's EIS documents which I have repeatedly linked to (https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.uta...0_2020_FIN.pdf; https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.uta...0_2020_FIN.pdf). The numbers I have posted for length and capacity of other gondola systems in the world are all factually correct and easily verified in seconds on Google. If anything I am the only one trying to keep this discussion grounded in currently verifiable facts, rather than speculating that "Well, the word on the street is that once the Olympics money starts flowing this all going to change."

Carl Fischer, heh, that's a solid joke, I literally LOL'ed
edit: I assumed you meant Carl G. Fisher, the automotive industry promoter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_G._Fisher). But I just realized that the executive director of Save Our Canyons is also named Carl Fisher. Either way, it's still funny and a solid burn, props.

I'm still very genuinely interested to know if you have any insight regarding why UPD willing puts your people, UDOT's people, UPD's own people, and the public at risk by refusing to enforce traction laws.

...no skin in game, and not an engineer, but are they supposed to be terrified by the challenges of building a LCC line?

Doppelmayr managed to build this 3S in 2019:

Their La Paz cross city line already moves 30K people an hour through 24 stations.

You could talk to the Poma guys, looks like some tough terrain to work with:

LCC gondola would be 8 miles/13 km long. Phu Quoc Island is 8 km long. The two gondolas on Huashan Mountain are 1.5 km and 4.2 km. La Paz is a network of shorter lines, so it's a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison to the LCC proposal. La Paz tickets also reportedly cost about 50 cents; a ride up LCC is likely to cost quite a bit more than that.

There are limitations imposed by physics that need to be considered here. I'm not going to rehash it all again, but I think there are reasons why the proposed LCC gondola can only move 1,050 ppl/hr. If I happened to find myself on a chairlift or at a bar with a Doppelmayr engineer I would be tickled pink.

A gondola up LCC is crazy, in the sense there will be nothing like it in America. Why not talk about it now? I'm enjoying the comments by DanTheMan, AltaCoup, telefreewasatch, etc. The discussion is even polite.

You guys spend infinite pages here during winter about where/when to just fucking park to ski, let the people talk about potentially the worlds longest gondola, and all the drama around it, this summer.

Thanks for that.

How UPD can't place an officer at the mouth of the canyon for five hours in the morning but can dispatch multiple units, tow trucks, fire trucks and ambulances when there is an accident makes no sense.

Exactly. Stepping over dollars to pick up dimes, while endangering lives.

[Boissal]

Stepping over dollars to pick up dimes

UPD can't even get someone in BCC or LCC to patrol watershed violations. Those are $650 a pop and the easiest ones to catch, even the laziest of donut-munchers could do it without breaking a sweat. It's basically about hanging around in the shade next to the creek waiting for the "crime" to announce itself with barks before walking right in front of you. Step out of the bushes, collect the goods. Bonus $$ could be made catching people who tag boulders, have random fires at trailside/creekside campsites and throw trash every-fucking-where.

Based on the number of people with dogs I see on quarry trail these days I think they could have funded a tire-checker winter position at $30 an hour for all of 2021/2022 already.

[tuco]

Is this where/when I post a solo Backcuntry ski track and proclaim "where's the problem?"?

[muted reborn]

Is this where/when I post a solo Backcuntry ski track and proclaim "where's the problem?"?

or make the comment, "You just gotta wake up early and know where to go!"

[One (+) Sentence]

After some thought, I am FOR the gondola but I do think they are omitting some thoughts on the subject (unless they have been mentioned on one of the previous 100’s of pages of this thread):

1- Generally speaking, I think the times the gondola is running while the road is closed will be few and far between, if ever. Wouldn’t UDOT need to have access to every single tower in the event an evac is ever needed to be performed? If a slide were to cover the road mid canyon, wouldn’t that hamper any essential evac?
2- Could the gondola load if the village of Alta is still under interlodge restrictions? Seems like ‘no.’ You can’t load people if there’s nowhere for them to unload. While most interlodges have an estimated re-opening, they never really know what the timeline will be until they observe the results of their mitigation attempts.
3- #2 would only exaggerate the log jam that will indeed be shifted from the canyon to the valley floor.

[schindlerpiste]

Meanwhile at the canyons

[Dantheman]

After some thought, I am FOR the gondola but I do think they are omitting some thoughts on the subject (unless they have been mentioned on one of the previous 100’s of pages of this thread):

1- Generally speaking, I think the times the gondola is running while the road is closed will be few and far between, if ever. Wouldn’t UDOT need to have access to every single tower in the event an evac is ever needed to be performed? If a slide were to cover the road mid canyon, wouldn’t that hamper any essential evac?
2- Could the gondola load if the village of Alta is still under interlodge restrictions? Seems like ‘no.’ You can’t load people if there’s nowhere for them to unload. While most interlodges have an estimated re-opening, they never really know what the timeline will be until they observe the results of their mitigation attempts.
3- #2 would only exaggerate the log jam that will indeed be shifted from the canyon to the valley floor.

1. Now that you mention it, there very well may be Federal safety regs that require access to the towers if a lift is running. Man, wouldn't that be some shit if road closed = gondola closed. UDOT says that the "gondola alternative can operate independently of S.R. 210" (https://littlecottonwoodeis.udot.utah.gov/) so you would think this has been considered, but it would be a hell of a question to ask at one of the public hearings.
2. This has occurred to me, too. You would think interlodge = no gondola loading (from either end), but I don't know for sure. TFW can probably answer this definitively.

[DigSki]

Meanwhile at the canyons

Maybe I'm stupid, but how the hell does that stop an avalanche?

[HammySlapwagons]

Meanwhile at the canyons

Tragic. Main mac was one of my go to areas to escape the crowds. Hopefully most of it will still be skiable.