Atomic Backland Tour question

[3PinGrin]

I do know a girl who's ski rocketed off at high speed and the guy went and got it for her,

it was early in the relationship so he looked like a real hero and they are still togetehr

so there is that

(and that's where my edit to XXX-er's comment will probably bite me in the ass someday, haha)

we buy these devices to allow us to slide DH at great speed, some of us fail to mitigate a skis penchant for sliding away unchecked by brake orleash

do tell me when it happens cuz I love saying ... I told you so

Wish I had a picture/video of the hours I spent looking for a buried Fischer T stix with brakes deployed on a powder day in the BC (well, it felt like hours anyway). Not saying it won't happen with leashes, but I have an N =1 for brakes, although did eventually find the ski, so not lost. Had a similar incident at the lifts last year on a powder day with brakes. So N=2 if not just BC. Non-link fused leashes are definitely not something that I would use in the backcountry though, especially after Bruce Tremper's description of being sucked down in an avy due to a leash (I think it was a leash, or maybe ski just didn't release, can't remember for sure). But don't worry, I'm not shy about admitting fault if I'm wrong on something, I will retract if I lose a ski using B&D leashes. Seems to be a 50/50 approach regarding brakes / leashes, so like I said, different strokes for different folks.

[XXX-er]

Ya i've lost skis with brakes, one was lost for months

but thats not the same as choosing to not use anything

[Jason4]

All of you that are worried about fused links wouldn't like snowboarding very much...

[3PinGrin]

but thats not the same as choosing to not use anything

leashes don't count as using anything

[XXX-er]

op is asking whats the advantage to going brakeless

I know people who don't use brakes or leashes and thats different than chosing to use brakes or leashes

[colemaaj]

leashes?

[3PinGrin]

Aw, gotcha XXX-er!

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[caulfield]

This thread got me thinking about the pin float thing, so I put together a couple ideas I've seen on the forum in order to test my own preferences on it. Somebody (Norseman?) had a clean pair of Delrin-like stomp pads mounted with inserts. And one of swissiphic's things was mounting bindings with carpet tape. Figured if he can ski with taped-on bindings, it'll hold up to getting stepped on.

I lucked out that my maestrale is exactly 1/2" off the top sheet, so I've got a cheap, easy prototype going on. Who knows if these will stay on, or if my heel will ever release again, but I'm going to give it a shot.

[hick]

This thread got me thinking about the pin float thing, so I put together a couple ideas I've seen on the forum in order to test my own preferences on it. Somebody (Norseman?) had a clean pair of Delrin-like stomp pads mounted with inserts. And one of swissiphic's things was mounting bindings with carpet tape. Figured if he can ski with taped-on bindings, it'll hold up to getting stepped on.

I lucked out that my maestrale is exactly 1/2" off the top sheet, so I've got a cheap, easy prototype going on. Who knows if these will stay on, or if my heel will ever release again, but I'm going to give it a shot.

I like it. I actually put my brakes back on cause the slop/play/float, whatever you want to call it, was driving me nuts going brakeless. Curious how this will turn out. Keep us posted!


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[Robik]

30 posts later I started seeing what I was asking about. There are plenty of discussion on whether go brakeless or not, but not much about pin float on the heels without length compensation (spring loaded with zero pins gap)
Thanks.

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[rod9301]

30 posts later I started seeing what I was asking about. There are plenty of discussion on whether go brakeless or not, but not much about pin float on the heels without length compensation (spring loaded with zero pins gap)
Thanks.

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I used the expert springs, with brakes, and there's no movement whatsoever in the heel.

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[galibier_numero_un]

I have trouble believing that brake pads support the heel, but I confess to not having studied a multitude of binders.

I'd expect designers to be wary of the boot heel binding up (interfering with) the lateral release.

So, either there's an impressive spring rate supporting the boot (which could make the lateral release unpredictable), or they have misplaced faith that all boot soles share the same distance from the heel fittings to the boot sole (and dimensioned the brake pad accordingly).

Smells suspiciously like confirmation bias, but I'm open to being proven wrong.

... Thom

[Robik]

I have trouble believing that brake pads support the heel, but I confess to not having studied a multitude of binders.

I'd expect designers to be wary of the boot heel binding up (interfering with) the lateral release.

So, either there's an impressive spring rate supporting the boot (which could make the lateral release unpredictable), or they have misplaced faith that all boot soles share the same distance from the heel fittings to the boot sole (and dimensioned the brake pad accordingly).

Smells suspiciously like confirmation bias, but I'm open to being proven wrong.

... Thom

I tried Backland binding with Hoji Pro Tour boots in and the sole sat right on top of brake pad. When I removed the brake and installed the heel with plastic plate, the sole was hanging on the pins.

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[caulfield]

There has to be sole-pedal contact, otherwise the brakes don't know when to spring into action. I think kingpins have a sliding afd on the pedal for this reason, but backlands don't. That's part of why I'm not that scared of my uhmw stomp block.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I'd expect designers to be wary of the boot heel binding up (interfering with) the lateral release.

I suspect skiing tech bindings with a solid block contacting the heel of your boot is a bit like skiing with toes locked in that you're trading (somewhat) reliable release for something else.

When Dynafit first released the Comfort/Vertical with brakes I believe they came with softer springs to accommodate for the added friction. Also, iirc, when fryflit tested tech binding release ATKs we're among the worst when it comes to having values similar consistent with DIN. I don't think you can count on their spacer to have no influence on release characteristics. Something to think about when you use tech bindings and especially modify the boot binding interface.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

There has to be sole-pedal contact, otherwise the brakes don't know when to spring into action. I think kingpins have a sliding afd on the pedal for this reason, but backlands don't. That's part of why I'm not that scared of my uhmw stomp block.

Yes, but the brake doesn't necessarily sit flush against the ski. There has to be slack in the system to accommodate different sole thicknesses.

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[John_B]

The only dynafit brakes I've used are Verticals but the amount and force of contact between the brake and boot is pretty small. I'd expect the heel spacer to change release characteristics way more than using brakes.

It would seem to me that if you are in a backwards twisting fall that would increase the loading against the heel spacer which would result in a higher release value, exactly when you wouldn't want that to be the case. At least with brakes there is a slight bit of slop in the brake so the contact with your boot stays similar if you load the brake and have a weird fall.

[caulfield]

Yes, but the brake doesn't necessarily sit flush against the ski. There has to be slack in the system to accommodate different sole thicknesses.

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Got it, yea makes sense. I wasn't thinking of the underside of the brake pedal.

John, that is the type of fall I remained worried about after playing around with the setup inside. The sole's tread pattern means only about 1 sq cm is touching, but it's still friction added to a less-than-perfect release mechanism so I'll just see how it feels and try not to fall that way...

[volklpowdermaniac]

One less hole in the ski, lower fiddle factor, skis-on transitions at the top, less ramp if you mount without the brakeless plate. I like brakeless for all those reasons but both answers are right.

Quick bump you said “less ramp if you mount it without the BRAKELESS plate” is that meant to say less ramp if you mount without the brake plate?

Just got a pair and bought brakes and assuming adding the brake plate adds ramp?

[caulfield]

Quick bump you said “less ramp if you mount it without the BRAKELESS plate” is that meant to say less ramp if you mount without the brake plate?

Just got a pair and bought brakes and assuming adding the brake plate adds ramp?

They used to ship with a plastic plate that replaces the brake plate for brakeless mounting, so ramp and screw length and all that was consistent with or without brakes. I think I read somewhere on here that they ship with either brakes or the brakeless plate now--not both. If you mount the heel piece straight to the ski, just pay attention to whether your screws are going to dimple the base.

[volklpowdermaniac]

Ah yeah now I see it. Thanks mang.