Snow in the PNW 20-21: We may have Corona but Corona doesn't have us!

[MagnificentUnicorn]

From orchards to houses: Wenatchee's changing landscape

https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/...745a84ae3.html

Wow you’re insightful. That article is 20 years late. That’s in the city limits and one of a handful of medium sized buildable parcels. I’ve lived here for 18 years and the population has grown less than 10%. The amount of new housing is really scarce, there’s no inventory new or used. That’s why everyone is moving to the Basin like I said. There are more jobs and people in Grant county than Chelan and Douglas counties combined. You should keep telling me what it’s like here though, it seems to be your specialty.

[Toadman]

PORTLAND, OR -- A coalition of conservation groups in the Pacific Northwest and Alaska today released an interactive mapping project that details 11 old-growth logging sales currently in development or soon to be implemented on US Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management (BLM) federal public lands. The projects, which affect approximately 800,000 acres and millions of tons of carbon emissions, are only some of the old-growth logging sales still moving forward despite President Biden’s January 27, 2021 direction to federal agencies on carbon and climate.

https://oregonwild.org/about/press/o...report-reveals
and:
http://mvcitizens.org/its-time-to-mo...ation-project/

Sure would be nice to have a new ski area with 1% of that land to provide sustainable jobs.

Which doesn't even begin to address the millions of acres of private land that would be feasible within 2 hours of Seattle. TAFKALS had compiled a list of good ones.

Or even just expand some existing ones. Seems like those days are over.

[jackattack]

I don’t think you know what you’re talking about, east slope valleys are one of the best areas for pear growing.

Growers can barely give pears away.

Little cherry disease and land values are the biggest threat to orchards in the Squilchuk watershed. Most of Wenatchee heights will soon be houses.

Beyond that, from the conversations I’ve had it doesn’t sound like snowmaking has any effect on water rights since it effectively acts as a sink for the watershed. It benefits the orchards more than it hurts them.

The NIMBY west side retirees and recent transplants in forest ridge are the main blockade against further development at mission ridge. I see development as a potential benefit to the skiing in the basin because the land managers will be forced to take fire risk seriously in those woods as they did at squilchuk state park once the forest ridge residents forced them to do so.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Growers can barely give pears away.

Little cherry disease and land values are the biggest threat to orchards in the Squilchuk watershed. Most of Wenatchee heights will soon be houses.

Beyond that, from the conversations I’ve had it doesn’t sound like snowmaking has any effect on water rights since it effectively acts as a sink for the watershed. It benefits the orchards more than it hurts them.

The NIMBY west side retirees and recent transplants in forest ridge are the main blockade against further development at mission ridge. I see development as a potential benefit to the skiing in the basin because the land managers will be forced to take fire risk seriously in those woods as they did at squilchuk state park once the forest ridge residents forced them to do so.

Well I guess we’re fucked then


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[TAFKALVS]

As buster noted, there's dozens of places in the WA cascades where day use or destination resorts could be built.

I think vails/alterras of the world want to constrain supply and drive prices high. Its in their interest to have long lift lines, always at full capacity, etc... it guarantees profitability and revenue. Especially adding reservations to the mix.

Isn't there a tech bro or two out there with some spare change who could duplicate a Silverton in the Cascades? Or support a few more hills like those in rural Montana? Lost Trail is a great example. Far smaller population, less affluence and yet they have fairly new lifts with good terrain. Same with Lookout Pass.

Bezos wouldn't even miss the $20 million to build a kickass hill somewhere between Crystal and Baker. Make it a non-profit and call it a tax write-off.

[jackattack]

Well I guess we’re fucked then

on the other hand, you're already a geezer....corn.

[Norseman]

There is almost no logging on National Forests lands in the Cascades of both WA and OR

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

and for Oregon:

https://logging.oregonhowl.org/?a=fed

[Norseman]

a little new snow to cover the dust on big T:

[Skier of the Hood]

Early winters went down because of water rights. Partial win on the court case but unsettled on the matter of water availability and then they gave up because it was apparent they would loose that fight. The crux of any new ski area development in headwaters areas since early winters has been water rights. Rural development in Washington state is largely constrained by water law.

[Toadman]

It doesn't take long for an area to go from hidden gem to overcrowded. In 1990, Wenatchee was bigger than Bend. Now Bend is three times the size of Wenatchee. Bend is tapped out and now it's Wenatchee's turn to explode. Just wait until Mission builds all those Seattle condos they have planned.

Dude, seriously, you have no clue about Bend. The potential for housing expansion is just being tapped. There's so much land that is available for the right price, and the right palms to be greased. The Deschutes/Crook country metro area is just growing and growing and growing.

Now, lets get back to developing more of the Cascades into lift served nirvana for all those tens of thousands of new skiers coming to the PNW every year.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

on the other hand, you're already a geezer....corn.

Thanks bud.


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[altasnob]

Dude, seriously, you have no clue about Bend. The potential for housing expansion is just being tapped. There's so much land that is available for the right price, and the right palms to be greased. The Deschutes/Crook country metro area is just growing and growing and growing.

Tapped, as in housing is outrageously expensive relative to local wages tapped. No, Bend can definitely sprawl all the way to Burns if they want.

[Wapow]

As buster noted, there's dozens of places in the WA cascades where day use or destination resorts could be built.

Outside of wilderness, there aren't many locations high enough and close enough to major highways/airports/cities. WA Pass would make a great ski area, but that war's already been fought and lost. There was recent talk of a new resort on Adams, on the Yakima land. Also shot down. Where else?

[plugboots]

In case anybody wants a pretty well researched synopsis of the Early Winters project failure. Devin’s plans woulda been cool. Oh well. I believe this is the template for how future ski resort plans will be put away.

https://archive.seattletimes.com/arc...4&slug=3001450

[altasnob]

As for logging on National Forests in the Cascades, below is a map of the NW Forest Plan. There is still logging in the National Forests in the Cascades, but it is relatively small compared to the amount of forest set aside for preservation. And the forest allowed to be logged is on the lowland periphery, mainly in Southern OR (not WA). Green areas on the map are protected and not being logged. Point being, the National Forest is not letting companies log forests that would make good ski areas. The areas being logged barely get snow and are mostly "matrix" lands that are checker board lands surrounded by private property or state trust forest lands.

https://www.fs.fed.us/r6/reo/landuse/

[altasnob]

duplicate a Silverton in the Cascades? Or support a few more hills like those in rural Montana? Lost Trail is a great example.

Silverton is private property. At least the chairlift is. I'm pretty sure most of those small Montana resorts are also on private property or mostly private property. Moonlight Basin, one of the newer ski areas, also private property.

The Rockies have way more private in holdings surrounded by federal land than the PNW because there was way more mining back in the day there. There are some private in holdings here in there in the Cascades, but they are just small pockets of land, like Barron Hut N Cascades Heli owns.

As I understand Silverton, the owner bought a sliver or land (surrounded by National Forest) and proposed to put up the chairlift. The majority of the skiing is on National Forest land adjacent to the chairlift and required the Forest Service's approval. The Forest Service was willing to grant that approval because the owner owned the land the chairlift was on. Even if the Forest Service said no, he could still spin the lifts and just let people ski the bump line under the lift. A similar situation went down when Snowbird expanded to Mineral Basin (the chairlift was on private property, but the resort needed Forest Service approval to ski on the lands adjacent to the private land). Story I was told is Snowbird owner threatened to put a lift up Twin Peaks (which he owned) unless the Forest Service granted him approval to develop mineral basin.

If you can find a similar situation in Washington, I think the Forest Service would also approve. But WA doesn't have tracks of private land in high alpine environments. So ya, move to the Rockies if you want to build a new ski area.

[altasnob]

In case anybody wants a pretty well researched synopsis of the Early Winters project failure. Devin’s plans woulda been cool. Oh well. I believe this is the template for how future ski resort plans will be put away.

https://archive.seattletimes.com/arc...4&slug=3001450

That article is giving conflicting reasons on why the resort wasn't developed. It states:

"In my mind, it was never about the environment," Wright said last week. "It was about a socioeconomic shift in the valley. Basically (opponents) didn't want to see rich, West-side types who like golf."

Ok, makes sense. Local Eastern WA people don't want to be overrun by Seattle. But then they state:

"It was the agencies," Bartholomew said. "The Department of Ecology, specifically."

Ask anyone on the eastside of Washington what they think of the State Department of Ecology and they will tell you the agency is in bed with wealthy Seattle golfers. So the agency beholden to Seattle elites helped keep the Seattle elites from taking over the Methow.

Bottom line, they didn't have enough money to get the project done. If Bill Gates wanted to build a resort in the Methow, it would have been built. And would a resort in Mazama do anything to ease skiing congestion for the 4 million people living around Seattle? It's a 4.5 hour drive in the winter. Whistler is closer.

There was a similar project right outside Rainier in Ashford that after 20 years, was recently finally killed. It wasn't a ski area but a Sun River/Suncadia golf condo conference center thing. If the owner of that project was posting here he would claim environmentalist killed his project. But in reality, he just didn't have enough money to do the shit that needed to be done to comply with all the environmental laws (like ensuring the storm water runoff from the site wasn't going to fuck up salmon bearing streams). Money talks and at the end of the day, people with real money rather spend it on other things than ski areas.

[abraham]

There used to be a tram on Johannesburg but it isn't there anymore. Haven't been able to find any pictures of it.

[Skier of the Hood]

Early winters failed because they did not have valid water rights. Back in those days pump and dumps and other schemes and scams were still in play but only if you were a muni government. Water rights are a big deal in Washington state…

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Tapped, as in housing is outrageously expensive relative to local wages tapped. No, Bend can definitely sprawl all the way to Burns if they want.

I don’t think I would take it that far. Maybe fill in the gaps between there and Prineville and La Pine. Like the sprawl that swallowed Redmond and is reaching out to Madras.


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[Fred Pabst]

Any of you kooks know what the price of an adult day ticket to Crystal is going to be this year? Website didn't seem to want to give that information out. Is there such thing as a discounted ticket to crystal from costco or Rei or whoever?

[nickwm21]

Bezos wouldn't even miss the $20 million to build a kickass hill somewhere between Crystal and Baker. Make it a non-profit and call it a tax write-off.

Shit. $20m would barely get you water and sewer mains and a parking lot. We at-least need a 1000’ vert of fixed grip double and a snack shack that sells Rainiers and empanadas.


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[MagnificentUnicorn]

Is the main reason for whining about the lack of lift served skiing in the cascades is that it’s too crowded? There’s a really great way to ditch the crowds and ski unmolested snow, you just might have to work more for that experience.


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[Dromond]

Is the main reason for whining about the lack of lift served skiing in the cascades is that it’s too crowded? There’s a really great way to ditch the crowds and ski unmolested snow, you just might have to work more for that experience.


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Honestly I think it’s parking as much as lift lines. I generally show up really early a d have never failed to park, but a lot of folks can’t easily get to the hill at their usual time. Especially true for families I think.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

So what you’re saying is that we need public transportation to ski areas and mountain access points.

Wouldn’t it be nice to have a train station at the top of Stevens or Snoqualmie?

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