Snow in the PNW 20-21: We may have Corona but Corona doesn't have us!

[goCougs]

So what you’re saying is that we need public transportation to ski areas and mountain access points.

Wouldn’t it be nice to have a train station at the top of Stevens or Snoqualmie?

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A ski train would be unreal. Would be so nice to park in factoria and ride the train up the pass.

[Norseman]

[Toadman]

Tapped, as in housing is outrageously expensive relative to local wages tapped. No, Bend can definitely sprawl all the way to Burns if they want.

Agreed. If you aren't a WFH 6 figure income earner, which Bend recently was listed as the top small city(100k residence) to do the WFH thing, then you are crap out of luck to get into the market.

[altasnob]

Lack of parking is the only thing that makes skiing Crystal on the weekends bearable, and I say this as a weekend warrior who drags his young kids up there every weekend. Get up there before the lifts open and enjoy an hour or two before the masses arrive. I shudder to think what the place would be like if they somehow expanded the lots. If you can't get your kids out of bed early, do what my neighbor does and leave for Snoqualmie at noon and hit the afternoon/early evening sesh, which is not crowded.

You're delusional if you think there will ever be public transit to ski areas in Washington. We struggle to build light rail from Seatac 20 miles south to Tacoma that will serve 2+ million. Public transit in the US is heavily subsidized and we shouldn't subsidize anything for a fringe, affluent, sport. And what's wrong with private ski buses? That's how I, and everyone else who grew up skiing here, learned to ski. Getting up at 4 am is just part of the adventure.

Western WA skiing is a great place to learn the sport, but it's not a great place for lazy powder man. It is arguably the best place in the lower 48 for back country, particularly given our abundant snowfall and relatively stable snowpack. So learn to ski and start hiking. There's a plethora of uncrowded lines to be had.

[Buster Highmen]

Any of you kooks know what the price of an adult day ticket to Crystal is going to be this year? Website didn't seem to want to give that information out. Is there such thing as a discounted ticket to crystal from costco or Rei or whoever?

$149

[Buster Highmen]

Mt. Catherine.
Yodelin.
Stampede Pass
Rock Mountain tunnel entrance/exit.

It's all there, all completely doable.

[The AD]

So what you’re saying is that we need public transportation to ski areas and mountain access points.

Wouldn’t it be nice to have a train station at the top of Stevens or Snoqualmie?

Forget the top, have a station in the middle of the Cascade tunnel under Stevens and a big elevator to get passengers to the surface. I believe the tunnel is directly under the back side. How's that for direct to lift access?

[edit: actually the tunnel runs pretty much directly under the summit of Cowboy Mountain. When the tunnel was built in the '20s work commenced from both sides, but there was also a shaft drilled straight down from Mill Creek. However, that shaft is a couple miles east of the ski area. ]

[Ted Striker]

And therein lies the problem. A new ski area in this state would require someone to be willing to put (I'm thinking at least) fifty million at risk, with significant liabilities, in a competitive market, with declining snowfalls. Plus, the average tourist wants a Whistler, not another Crystal.

There are many easier ventures with safer returns.

[Ted Striker]

And what's wrong with private ski buses? That's how I, and everyone else who grew up skiing here, learned to ski. Getting up at 4 am is just part of the adventure.

Those were the days. I can't believe my parents let the 12 yo me and my idiot friends loose on the mountain unsupervised.

[The AD]

... with declining snowfalls.

Not sure if there's evidence of declining snowfall overall, but certainly snowfall at pass elevations are a significant issue that means a pretty decent investment in snowmaking would be required with the commensurate cost and environmental hoops.

[jacob_dbu]

Plus, the average tourist wants a Whistler, not another Crystal.

But what you mean is that we can't build a Whistler here. There's just no land to build a ski resort town slope-side which is what actually brings the big bucks. Another Crystal / Stevens / Baker / Summit is just gonna bring the day crowds who aren't going to spend a whole lot of money compared to slope side accommodations selling $30 pizzas and $200 massages.

[altasnob]

Yodelin.

Very popular backcountry area with marginal skiing. You would just displace backcountry skiers with resort skiers. Wouldn't alleviate crowds any.

Stampede Pass

3,671 elevation. Too low. Already owned by the sledneck crowd.

Rock Mountain tunnel entrance/exit.

Where's the parking lot? The valley is tight there. I think Jim Hill and Arrowhead would make more sense since it is easier to get to the North Facing terrain. The wilderness boundary is on summit of Jim Hill. Bottom of Jim Hill is private land that can be purchased. Biggest problem is land is too steep for much parking and development.

You could turn Alpine Lakes High Camp in the Chiwaukum into a resort. It's on private land (leased from logging company). The skiing at the current huts is not great, but has access to the high Chiwaukum. A decent chunk of the adjacent Chiwaukum is outside the wilderness. This is one of the best options.

Mt. Catherine.

I think expanding Snoqaulmie out to Silver Peak as one of the most viable options. You already have a freeway there. Already have massive parking lots and could squeeze in more. It's next to wilderness but not in wilderness. There are a few old growth trees you would have to mow down but there are already old logging roads and power lines so it's not a pristine area.

Non wilderness areas of the Teanaway if the developer agreed to expand the paved road. But we all saw what happened when someone wanted to put a small yurt out there in sledneck country.

[Ted Striker]

Not sure if there's evidence of declining snowfall overall, but certainly snowfall at pass elevations are a significant issue that means a pretty decent investment in snowmaking would be required with the commensurate cost and environmental hoops.

Maybe there is isn't, but try getting someone with money to bet on that going forward. Branson, Musk, and Bezos are already looking for another planet to live on!

But seriously, yeah, it's the elevations that matter. Any elevation that hovers around 32° would be a non-starter at this point.

[Buster Highmen]

I don''t understand the 'desirous of Whistler' arguments in light of Steven, Snoqualmie and Crystal being maxxed out virtually every weekend.
If Puget Sound skiers didn't want that, why are the existing areas saturated?

As far as the rest of the nitwits and nattering nabobs of negativity, glad none of the people who developed anything ever listened to them.

[The AD]

I don''t understand the 'desirous of Whistler' arguments in light of Steven, Snoqualmie and Crystal being maxxed out virtually every weekend.
If Puget Sound skiers didn't want that, why are the existing areas saturated?

I agree. I'm sure there's a segment that would want another Whistler, but the numbers speak for themselves. There's great demand for the current level of ski area development. I think the question is whether anyone interested in developing a new ski area is interested in that level of development. The recent development trend certainly seems to be focused on real estate with a nice mountain backdrop as the thing that brings 'em in.

I can think of only two lift-served ski areas that have opened in the U.S. in this century: Silverton and Mount Bohemia. I guess they prove it can still be done.

[jacob_dbu]

I don''t understand the 'desirous of Whistler' arguments in light of Steven, Snoqualmie and Crystal being maxxed out virtually every weekend.
If Puget Sound skiers didn't want that, why are the existing areas saturated?

As far as the rest of the nitwits and nattering nabobs of negativity, glad none of the people who developed anything ever listened to them.

Inelastic demand. People wanna ski, doesn't matter where. It's just that if you're not spending big bucks off the mountain then the mountain isn't making the big bucks. Look at how Vail neutered Steven's. As with everything in capitalism it comes down to $$$.

[PNWbrit]

Look at how Vail neutered Steven's.

Funny

Early onset crusty old local?

[jacob_dbu]

Funny

Early onset crusty old local?

Life comes at you fast. Looking back at that thread I had a lot of shit all wrong about Seattle.

Lifts not running at Steven's last year was absolute bullshit tho.

[Ted Striker]

I don''t understand the 'desirous of Whistler' arguments in light of Steven, Snoqualmie and Crystal being maxxed out virtually every weekend.
If Puget Sound skiers didn't want that, why are the existing areas saturated?

Proximity to Seattle, which has the largest population of any city in the lower 48 that's within fifty miles of a major ski area. And that's also why expansion of Snoqualmie to Catherine is more likely than some of the other options.

And FTR, I don't want to see another Whistler built anywhere near me. I hate resorts. I'll take parking lot tailgates surrounded by dirtbags and dogs every day of the season over starfucks and sushi. But money dictates what's developed, and lift tickets alone aren't generally enough to attract investment. If you want "destination" business, you have to have all the amenities.

As far as the rest of the nitwits and nattering nabobs of negativity, glad none of the people who developed anything ever listened to them.

I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic.

[Wapow]

Non wilderness areas of the Teanaway if the developer agreed to expand the paved road. But we all saw what happened when someone wanted to put a small yurt out there in sledneck country.

There will never be a ski area in the Teanaway, but there could be plowed winter access to the Esmeralda basin if the "skiiing community" ever got its shit together and figured out how to fund it. Sledders have had their infrastructure figured out for 30+ years: https://parks.state.wa.us/304/Snowmobile-Sno-Parks

As for the "little yurt", it wasn't little and the proposed operation was fundamentally flawed in a myriad of ways, as validated by the FS agreeing to pull the permit, in a review that was forced by a law suit (i.e., they agreed that they would lose = they agreed that they were wrong to grant the permit in the first place). A better thought out operation could work in the Teanaway.

[greenmachine]

I think wenatchee is a hidden gem and likely to to start gaining much more attention. Uncrowded skiing and great mtn biking right there. quick access to chelan, desert golf, leavenworth and even stevens pass. I'd love to have a house on the river in prehastin or cashmere.

[Bandit Man]

Life comes at you fast. Looking back at that thread I had a lot of shit all wrong about Seattle.

Lifts not running at Steven's last year was absolute bullshit tho.

To be fair…almost everyday that happened last season, there was also a substantial weather event and extended avalanche control work on Hwy 2. That leads to delayed opening and staff not showing up. The Vail approach to labor issues is definitely a factor, but not the only one IMO.

I love Buster’s optimism and wish we could get some expansion. I just know when I relocated here 16-years ago, I realized I hit the jackpot for such amazing skiing so close to home. I remember thinking, this cannot last forever. So grateful to have had so many good years, including last year with 600” and a full season, despite COVID and Vail fueled hiccups.

[greenmachine]

what I can't seem to grasp is why the whole area at the base of xtal isn't or hasn't been redeveloped. I've heard it's related no sewer system and being on septic, that and maybe National Park/ Forest Service bureaucracy . With all the capital out there (money growth/low rates) It's really hard for me to believe it isn't happening. The cost of below average lodging due to scarcity and the lack of services is just begging for it.

[altasnob]

Crystal base has upgrade plans and probably will be upgraded in our lifetimes (others can chime in with exact status of that). Most of the lodging at Crystal base isn't owned by Crystal, it's privately owned by mom and pops, on private land. So Crystal has no control over that. I don't think you can blame Forest Service bureaucracy but just sheer costs. Word I heard was one of the main reasons Crystal sold out to Alerra/Ikon is because they didn't want to deal with cleaning up the storm water runoff from their dirt parking lot. It's not cheap to build and maintain a giant parking lot in a place that gets massive precipitation and feeds salmon bearing streams. And the only reason Alterra/Ikon bought Crystal wasn't to make to make improvements at Crystal and try to turn it into a destination, it was so all the rich people in the Seattle area buy Alterra/Ikon passes, and not Epic, and take vacations to Alterra/Ikon resorts. The skiing experience at Crystal can be pure shit and yet people will still buy passes there because the other options equally suck.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...off-by-oct-31/

[Huskier]

The Vail approach to labor issues is definitely a factor, but not the only one IMO.

And it's an inexcusable one. I'm in of the same vintage, learned to ski at Stevens and would much prefer to be there but Vail's bullshit in conjunction w Ikonification has pushed quite a few to the Crystal corner. One of the major resorts being habitually mis-managed definitely does NOT help with overcrowding everywhere else.