Whistler/Vail North 2020/2021

[teamdirt]

If the state is supposed to rescue people free of charge, as is in BC, then the state should do all it can to minimize those expenses. Then there are the users, many are tourists and won't have the local experience or connections to get up to date on the season. This is where really in depth avy forecasting comes in. People can be average and use good tools instead of learning to be experts at forecasting and analysis.

Of course terrain choices are 95% of the issue. Snow slides. And all the experts that are supposed to teach and mentor a younger generation seem to be dying or dead.

As ski guide once told me, "There are old men and there are bold men. But there aren't any old bold men."

You obviously don’t ski in the backcountry....we don’t live in a state and most people have to pay for rescues outside of SAR unless the RCMP inniate it. Support your local SAR or buy insurance....

And the quote is “old dogs, bold dogs but no old bold dogs”

Also for Raypruit- hwy 5 is a stones throw from the Duffey depending where u want to pin it. Makes sense it’s part of the forecast area....

[BCMtnHound]

If the state is supposed to rescue people free of charge, as is in BC, then the state should do all it can to minimize those expenses. Then there are the users, many are tourists and won't have the local experience or connections to get up to date on the season. This is where really in depth avy forecasting comes in. People can be average and use good tools instead of learning to be experts at forecasting and analysis.

Of course terrain choices are 95% of the issue. Snow slides. And all the experts that are supposed to teach and mentor a younger generation seem to be dying or dead.

As ski guide once told me, "There are old men and there are bold men. But there aren't any old bold men."

The state is not responsible for ground search and rescue in BC. Every SAR team is a non-profit society comprised of volunteers. BC Search and Rescue Association represents those teams in their relationship with the Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General. It has been recent that the province has provided significant funding to those local SAR organizations, and it still is only year over year and not guaranteed.
Avalanche Canada is also a non-govt not-for-profit organization that is staffed by paid professionals. Its funding is also not secure.

So your expectations on avy forecasting and emergency response may need significant lobbying of your elected officials to become realized. Better get on it, you've got your work cut out for ya!

[raypruit]

Are you not supposed to get educated and gain experience to be able to make your own decisions based on information available?

Avalanche conditions are different on every mountain, valley, slope...

Your rant about forecasting defeats the main idea of being responsible for your own choices...

Yes you should make your own decisions with available info, but I question the usefulness of some of the info in the bulletins. What use is a moderate or considerable rating for an area that encompasses two completely different geographic regions hundreds of km apart with completely different weather systems and snowpacks? I would argue it's of no use at best and misleading at worst.

If avcan can't provide enough granularity to make a rating system useful, just drop it altogether. Just post point obs from different locations and put them on the map. That's what I'd rather see

[teamdirt]

Yes you should make your own decisions with available info, but I question the usefulness of some of the info in the bulletins. What use is a moderate or considerable rating for an area that encompasses two completely different geographic regions hundreds of km apart with completely different weather systems and snowpacks? I would argue it's of no use at best and misleading at worst.

If avcan can't provide enough granularity to make a rating system useful, just drop it altogether. Just post point obs from different locations and put them on the map. That's what I'd rather see

The avalanche report is a starting point for you to further investigate, not a code to know whether to tone it back or shred it up...ultimately your observations, testing and results should depict your decisions. Suggesting Acan be more specific or more precise is suggesting that users focus more on someone elses subjective observations and not their own...

[raypruit]

The avalanche report is a starting point for you to further investigate, not a code to know whether to tone it back or shred it up...ultimately your observations, testing and results should depict your decisions. Suggesting Acan be more specific or more precise is suggesting that users focus more on someone elses subjective observations and not their own...

code to know whether to tone it back or shred it up? sorry, i missed the part where i said that. i think we're talking past each other here. i'll make this very simple: question: should these 2 places be in the same forecast region? answer: no

https://imgur.com/a/FmWuQRA

edit: can't figure out how to embed imgur imags

[teamdirt]

Ur link-It’s the south coast-Avcan simplified it- the region in question deals with a inland south coast snowpack over a large area that has the same characteristics,Infield observations need to be applied. Common South cost snowpack features are widespread consistent Instability’s across a similar geographic zone which they report, micro forecasting, localized winds, temp gradients, etc r all infield obs u need to apply to the bigger picture. The forecast area should not have large differences with deep instability.

Continental snowpacks such as east of revelstoke, Colorado, Montana, Idaho, etc are within multiple mountain ranges, they are inland, the snow is dry, the weather changes are often and are significant and the snow accumulation is less. These snowpacks need more attention and are extremely more complex Within a smaller area and are weaved with layers of instabilities Sitting ontop of stubborn deep persistent Instabilities, of course all depending on the snow year as each year gives a different DNA. This is the reason as to why there are so many avalanche specific reports especially in the USA about these complex regions.

[pureantigravity]

You obviously don’t ski in the backcountry....we don’t live in a state and most people have to pay for rescues outside of SAR unless the RCMP inniate it. Support your local SAR or buy insurance....

And the quote is “old dogs, bold dogs but no old bold dogs”

Also for Raypruit- hwy 5 is a stones throw from the Duffey depending where u want to pin it. Makes sense it’s part of the forecast area....

> You obviously don’t ski in the backcountry...

I don't backcountry ski right now. I have. I did and this last year I sold all my BC boots and skis. I still have my beacon, ice axe, crampons and rescue kit, etc.. I still snowshoe and hike the backcountry. When the time is right, I'll be getting fresh gear and more training and heading out to enjoy again.

> And the quote is “old dogs, bold dogs but no old bold dogs”

True. That's not how the guide put it. He has climbed some of the worlds highest mountains and was part of some notable expeditions. He paraphrased it to make a point.

The state is not responsible for ground search and rescue in BC. Every SAR team is a non-profit society comprised of volunteers. BC Search and Rescue Association represents those teams in their relationship with the Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General. It has been recent that the province has provided significant funding to those local SAR organizations, and it still is only year over year and not guaranteed.
Avalanche Canada is also a non-govt not-for-profit organization that is staffed by paid professionals. Its funding is also not secure.

So your expectations on avy forecasting and emergency response may need significant lobbying of your elected officials to become realized. Better get on it, you've got your work cut out for ya!

> we don’t live in a state and most people have to pay for rescues outside of SAR unless the RCMP inniate it. Support your local SAR or buy insurance....
> The state is not responsible for ground search and rescue in BC.

Yes. I know that. Let me rephrase. The government is part-and-parcel to rescue and funding in some manner such as: 911 services, Fire Rescue involvement, ambulance transferring patients after rescue, some of the $6 million in recent funding, or even the lending of Navy choppers (recent Squamish rescue). The government is paying in some way or other for the rescues and outcomes. Of course, most SARs run on the amazing goodwill of teams of volunteers. Our healthcare and supports are free to users but not to the taxpayers.

And there has been past funding out of tax dollars: "$18.6 million in one-time funding ... in addition to funding that the Province already provides each year – $9 million in 2017-18 – to cover GSAR operational costs for deployment, as well as training and equipment costs, and the insurance and liability for the 80 groups serving B.C."
https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2019PSSG0029-000474


It would be nice to see the government step up and provide more to avy forecasting. There is a bigger wave of outdoor enthusiasts on the way and the cost to society of these accidents is greater than the cost of funding education and prevention and rescue.

[Schemeboat]

I think an awesome critical public baseline would be to make the infoex free and read-only for the general public.

[grrrmountainman]

I think if the infoex had a public component it would start to get watered down and lose its value. Ie: operators area fairly forthcoming and blunt right now in their reports because its an industry resource, not for public consumption. I take the avalanche forecasting like weather forecasts - they are a piece of the puzzle and give you an "idea" of what could be out there, but you yourself know your own micro region and need to prepare for things being different.

I think it's of value to keep in mind what "considerable" is defined as under the rating system. From Av Canada's glossary:

"Considerable is the third of five levels on the avalanche danger scale. Under considerable danger, natural avalanches are possible and human-triggered ones are likely. Avalanche conditions are considered dangerous and careful snowpack evaluation, cautious route-finding and conservative decision making is essential. Small avalanches can occur in many areas, large avalanches in specific areas, and very large avalanches in isolated areas.

Decision making under considerable danger can be challenging. While conditions are dangerous, avalanches may be less widespread, smaller, or less likely than under high avalanche danger, potentially making the danger less obvious. Many slopes should be avoided when avalanche danger is rated considerable. Use the Avaluator Trip Planner and Slope Evaluation Tools to help decide on appropriate areas to travel.
Historically, the highest number of avalanche fatalities have occurred when the danger was rated considerable."

[unclebill]

It would be nice to see the government step up and provide more to avy forecasting. There is a bigger wave of outdoor enthusiasts on the way and the cost to society of these accidents is greater than the cost of funding education and prevention and rescue.

More government funding for anything often brings more bureaucracy/regulation/intervention/restrictions into the mix. Be careful what you wish for.

[xyz]

More government funding for anything often brings more bureaucracy/regulation/intervention/restrictions into the mix. Be careful what you wish for.

Yup...govts typically create problems, not solve them.

And even if they tripled funding, any forecast they provided wouldn’t greatly impact my decision to ski the slope I’m standing on top of.

[kootenayskier]

> You obviously don’t ski in the backcountry...

I don't backcountry ski right now. I have. I did and this last year I sold all my BC boots and skis. I still have my beacon, ice axe, crampons and rescue kit, etc.. I still snowshoe and hike the backcountry. When the time is right, I'll be getting fresh gear and more training and heading out to enjoy again.

> And the quote is “old dogs, bold dogs but no old bold dogs”

True. That's not how the guide put it. He has climbed some of the worlds highest mountains and was part of some notable expeditions. He paraphrased it to make a point.






> we don’t live in a state and most people have to pay for rescues outside of SAR unless the RCMP inniate it. Support your local SAR or buy insurance....
> The state is not responsible for ground search and rescue in BC.

Yes. I know that. Let me rephrase. The government is part-and-parcel to rescue and funding in some manner such as: 911 services, Fire Rescue involvement, ambulance transferring patients after rescue, some of the $6 million in recent funding, or even the lending of Navy choppers (recent Squamish rescue). The government is paying in some way or other for the rescues and outcomes. Of course, most SARs run on the amazing goodwill of teams of volunteers. Our healthcare and supports are free to users but not to the taxpayers.

And there has been past funding out of tax dollars: "$18.6 million in one-time funding ... in addition to funding that the Province already provides each year – $9 million in 2017-18 – to cover GSAR operational costs for deployment, as well as training and equipment costs, and the insurance and liability for the 80 groups serving B.C."
https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2019PSSG0029-000474


It would be nice to see the government step up and provide more to avy forecasting. There is a bigger wave of outdoor enthusiasts on the way and the cost to society of these accidents is greater than the cost of funding education and prevention and rescue.

We have regularly updated, region specific forecasts, produced by professionals, that reliably identify and quantify the issues of concern. Combined with endless other resources (weather forecasts, live webcams, instructional videos etc.), it’s not like backcountry users are lacking information. What you choose to do with it is up to you. If you fuck up, SAR comes and rescues you, free of charge. We can all nitpick how our current system might be reformed to serve some other objective better, but I suggest we have the basics covered. Personally I’d prefer my tax dollars weren’t spent vainly trying to overcome the various personal, psychological and sociological that contribute to poor decision making in the mountains, and that we accept that many people should stay inbounds, or stick to gaming.

[LeeLau]

We have regularly updated, region specific forecasts, produced by professionals, that reliably identify and quantify the issues of concern. Combined with endless other resources (weather forecasts, live webcams, instructional videos etc.), it’s not like backcountry users are lacking information. What you choose to do with it is up to you. If you fuck up, SAR comes and rescues you, free of charge. We can all nitpick how our current system might be reformed to serve some other objective better, but I suggest we have the basics covered. Personally I’d prefer my tax dollars weren’t spent vainly trying to overcome the various personal, psychological and sociological that contribute to poor decision making in the mountains, and that we accept that many people should stay inbounds, or stick to gaming.

You do say things much nicer than I do. There's been many discussions this year on various fora with people expressing discontent with the granularity of the AvCan forecasts. And otoh there's been quite a few expressing that the forecasts are a datapoint to be used for what they are ( paraphrasing of course).

Some people are willing to be their own forecaster. Some are less willing. And some (many?) may not know what they don't know and simply rely on their imperfect understanding of the forecast and/or their own skills.

I'd put it that this won't change any time soon. AvCan has the resources that it has for the foreseeable future. Take it for what it's worth

[Maximus Farcisimus]

A week ago the wind kicked up so I took a bunch of days off-who wants to out in -20 and winds??

Back to the Duffey this week for a couple more pow days.












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[paulster2626]

Got a router for Xmas, so I’ve been making as much stuff as possible. Lately it’s been trail signs. Whipped up a spankys for my backyard and my buddy wanted a fraggle rock one.

Anyway point of this isn’t anything new, it’s just the more of these I can make the better I get at it. Anyone want one? I could probably have a couple available for pickup week of March 15 locally in Whis. Just let me know what you’d want on it. Just an idea, that’s all.






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[LeeLau]

I could use trail signs

"Deep Fucking Green"

"Heavenly Wang"

"Starr Wang"

Two signs "Cease or Refrain"

Will break trail or repay with GameSTOP stickers

[t.odd]

pretty variable up there today, some pretty good, some marginal, some less good...usually all within a few dozen turns of each other

[xyz]

Duffey delivered today!

[Schemeboat]

I could use trail signs

"Deep Fucking Green"

"Heavenly Wang"

"Starr Wang"

Two signs "Cease or Refrain"

Will break trail or repay with GameSTOP stickers

All Stonks to the moon

[gramboh]

Hahaha Deep Fucking Green... quality testimony yesterday.

The way some posters phrase questions on South Coast Touring (aka “tell me if this complex terrain is safe today or not before I drive up from Vancouver for the first time”) really shows they have no clue and no business being out when it’s not bomber. Everyone has to learn but AST1/2 should at least result in realizing you have no clue and to start small or hire a guide.

[The AD]

Cool project, Paul!

[Cocximus]

I demand an avalanche Canada representative at every trailhead. When I go to zoa I better get an up to date map with lines of what runs are safe and which are dangerous.

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[t.odd]

Duffey delivered today!

certainly looked like you guys scored!

[LeeLau]

Hahaha Deep Fucking Green... quality testimony yesterday.

The way some posters phrase questions on South Coast Touring (aka “tell me if this complex terrain is safe today or not before I drive up from Vancouver for the first time”) really shows they have no clue and no business being out when it’s not bomber. Everyone has to learn but AST1/2 should at least result in realizing you have no clue and to start small or hire a guide.

The trail sign

[LeeLau]

pretty variable up there today, some pretty good, some marginal, some less good...usually all within a few dozen turns of each other

From 10am under the solar coaster

Then yday in the place of free wifi where nobody should go because there's no micro forecast tailored for your special flower needs