USFS proposed rule to revamp eMTB access (Sept. 2020)

[John_B]

Altasnob, just about all of the recent Evergreen trails in the Methow have been on Forest Service land. It is not true that Evergreen is only building on state and private. If you are familiar with the area the Sun Mtn/Chickadee trail complex is 90+% on Forest Service land. Future Evergreen trail projects include the Loup Loup Pass area which again would be on FS land.

I can't speak to many of the other areas in the state but here Evergreen has a quite positive relationship with the FS with lots of new trail creation.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Altasnob, just about all of the recent Evergreen trails in the Methow have been on Forest Service land. It is not true that Evergreen is only building on state and private. If you are familiar with the area the Sun Mtn/Chickadee trail complex is 90+% on Forest Service land. Future Evergreen trail projects include the Loup Loup Pass area which again would be on FS land.

I can't speak to many of the other areas in the state but here Evergreen has a quite positive relationship with the FS with lots of new trail creation.

Same in Wenatchee area


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[altasnob]

Yes, I oversimplified when I say all new trails in Washington are on state and private land, not federal land. Anywhere on the East side of Cascades is likely to be on federal National Forest land because there is not much state DNR trust land there and less private timber land. Plus, not as much money to buy easements on private timber land (like Bellingham shelling out $3 million for Galbraith). But Canadians are correct that whenever you build on federal land you are going to have way more red tape than building on state, county, or private land. I just want to point out to ignorant backwoods Canadians that the state of trail building is not as fucked down here as they think it is. There is a reason Transition, Evil, and Kona are all based in Bellingham area. It's not like they have to cross the border to ride good trails.

Central Oregon Trail Alliance (Bend) is another place that works well with Forest Service. But again, most forest surrounding Bend is federal National Forest so that is what they are limited to.

[ridinshockgun]

Altasnob, just about all of the recent Evergreen trails in the Methow have been on Forest Service land. It is not true that Evergreen is only building on state and private. If you are familiar with the area the Sun Mtn/Chickadee trail complex is 90+% on Forest Service land. Future Evergreen trail projects include the Loup Loup Pass area which again would be on FS land.

I can't speak to many of the other areas in the state but here Evergreen has a quite positive relationship with the FS with lots of new trail creation.

This is really good to hear, further away from WTA's typical demographic so makes sense.

I think what most of us (or some of us) want is more, not unabated, access to Washington's beautiful alpine terrain whereas most of it is already wilderness and no matter how presumptive or speculative it may be, most believe that ebikes don't help that. Hopefully the USFS clearly designating them as separate user groups allows us to continue to push for that access. I think if the user groups are combined it would severely hinder that effort. I enjoy the feel of more worn in trails vs newly built machine flow trails, etc so the "hiking trails" really appeal to me from my days of riding in Pisgah before moving out here.

Maybe one day we can legally climb up the PCT and descend Cutthroat, or why not ride up to near Slate Peak and descend back down something like Robinson pass, etc, etc. Using these just as examples not an attempt to analyze the rideability or fun factor as an actual ride.

On the other hand there is a lot of pretty decent "alpine" riding on motorized trails in Washington, and while I don't want all of our trails to look like they do... these trails are very enjoyable on a mountain bike as well. It sounds like we are very lucky in that many areas motorized trails are not as well cared for - I'm guessing this is a real complement to the responsible motorized users we have here.

[rideit]

My old boss used to ride his rollers backwards (two rollers under the front wheel) for miles while juggling four balls.
Bit of a freak.
But you know, Syracuse winters.

[bendtheski]

My old boss used to ride his rollers backwards (two rollers under the front wheel) for miles while juggling four balls.
Bit of a freak.
But you know, Syracuse winters.

Yeah, I got mine when I lived in Southampton (1987?), mostly just to work on smoother pedaling, then I got bored and figured I'd up the difficulty. TBH, Southampton winters are very mild, and I didn't ride the things a ton more after the first one, then invested in better cold weather riding gear and went back to riding outside. If I'd tried your boss' approach, I might still be indoors!

[toast2266]

It seems like the Forest Service in a lot of places is trying a little harder to create new trails for modern recreation. My take is that the Wilderness / hiking groups (Sierra Club, etc.) are figuring out that they have a more compelling argument to create new Wilderness and shut access down if new frontcountry trails have been / will be created. So they're throwing their weight behind some new recreation projects, which the mountain bike groups have, for the most part, been happy to go along with.

Thus far, pretty much all of those discussions and new trail approvals have happened outside of the influence of ebikes - most of those recreation projects started years ago, before ebikes really existed. They're just coming out of the normal bureaucratic bog and getting built now.

It'll be interesting to see how the next round of trail proposals will go - the ones that are going to have to acknowledge the existence of ebikes. No idea if those powerful hiking groups that were ok with some of the past frontcountry projects will still be on board if ebikes are slated to be allowed.

[Bunion 2020]

OT but I get royal pissed when the backcounty epic sufferfests get closed and the excuse is, "fuck you, we built you some flowy berms closer to town."

Don't get me wrong, I like riding fast food trails during the shoulder seasons or when I don't want to worry about Bears or think too much but mountain biking is also about trying to follow or figure out a line on a map that may or may not exist.

Preachin to the choir here I know.

No idea if those powerful hiking groups that were ok with some of the past frontcountry projects will still be on board if ebikes are slated to be allowed.

Won't matter, they WILL seize e-bikes as another reason but those pricks hate everyone unless you are walking and even then.....

[grinch]

A coherent, and relatively well composed endorsement; well done. You touched on most of the reasons I'm considering an ebike to continue riding into my 60's and hopefully 70's. I'm still doing ok(ish) under my own power, but as I said in the other thread, some rides are becoming more and more challenging, and the reality is setting in that they will eventually get crossed off my trailmap. An ebike could postpone that for a while.

You might sway more people to your cause with a more measured approach here. I know I'm a cunt, but really just bored and playing devil's advocate. Most of the arguments I've presented are ones we've all heard, and will hear again. I have yet to encounter an emtb on my favorite loop, and seriously doubt congestion will ever be a problem there, but it's already a huge problem on many loops nearby. The increased recreational traffic in the state due to covid has just made matters worse, and I expect it's just a matter of time before people start bitching, and authorities drop the ban hammer. Your advocacy and engagement could help avoid that with a more measured approach. The whole "if you're not with us, you're against us" assumption not garnering much support from what I've seen.

I used to be able to ride Kreitler rollers for 30 miles with no hands, who wants to touch me?

Ya eating lunch on the rollers became quite capable. After burning through a few stationary magnetic rollers.
Emtb's like i said arent all about gaining that step youve lost. Most of my last post expands on that.
Im not doing any advocacy. I dealt with enough political bs living in a park for 25 yrs to fill 10 life times. Respect to anyone that does but im out
After we wade through all the ribbing in here we sharpen our arguements and learn something. Some just need a little more facepalm than others

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[LeeLau]

Ok, here’s another thought experiment. Is it possible that because of cultural differences between say, Europe, Canada and the US that the subjective perception that ebikes can seamlessly integrate with human powered users might differ between the different cultures? For better or worse the US isn’t Canada and certainly not the EU culturally.

Europe has a tradition of uplift access which fits well with ebikes. Plus not a lot of true wilderness

The US has a well funded entrenched lobby of anti mountain bikers. Add the mechanized/non-mechanized verbiage of the Wilderness Act and the disproportionate attention paid by other fed/state/muni land managers to USFS decisions in re Wilderness and there's no wonder that ebiking throws a wrench in the works of advocacy.

Western Canada (can't speak for the Eastern) has an an absence of a coherent anti mountain-bike lobby plus a reasonably sized critical mass of semi-well organized bike advocacy organizations; well at least they look organized but its the usual story of many passengers and a few vollie directors doing the bulk of work.

It's also by no means seamless. CH has had ebikers scaring cows. Going uphill on downhills. Some added conflicts because the greater range means some more remote farms are seeing more traffic. Canada has had some of these same issues. But all in all it's worked out .... so far

[bendtheski]

After we wade through all the ribbing in here we sharpen our arguements and learn something. Some just need a little more facepalm than others

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Most fun I've had on the interwebs in a while. TGR at its best! At one point, I almost told you to take it to pugski, but that would have been hitting below the belt. I'm just glad I don't have to sell/work on any of these things (or any bikes other than my own for that matter). People who can't fix their own bike...

[grinch]

Most fun I've had on the interwebs in a while. TGR at its best! At one point, I almost told you to take it to pugski, but that would have been hitting below the belt. I'm just glad I don't have to sell/work on any of these things (or any bikes other than my own for that matter). People who can't fix their own bike...

Haaa , thanks for pulling punches amd sparing me. Pugski appeared on the emtb forums. A bit bland and people just strolled right past the posts. No advocacy there , its all open to most of them there so they don't really care(semi UK centric) unless theyre really bored. Rainy day for me so im bored. Rainy day for them is just another day

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[grinch]

Europe has a tradition of uplift access which fits well with ebikes. Plus not a lot of true wilderness

The US has a well funded entrenched lobby of anti mountain bikers. Add the mechanized/non-mechanized verbiage of the Wilderness Act and the disproportionate attention paid by other fed/state/muni land managers to USFS decisions in re Wilderness and there's no wonder that ebiking throws a wrench in the works of advocacy.

Western Canada (can't speak for the Eastern) has an an absence of a coherent anti mountain-bike lobby plus a reasonably sized critical mass of semi-well organized bike advocacy organizations; well at least they look organized but its the usual story of many passengers and a few vollie directors doing the bulk of work.

It's also by no means seamless. CH has had ebikers scaring cows. Going uphill on downhills. Some added conflicts because the greater range means some more remote farms are seeing more traffic. Canada has had some of these same issues. But all in all it's worked out .... so far

Talking to friends at home in the maritimes and recently to a friend in quebec. Hometown in NB the emtb is just another bike. Zero restrictions.
Friend in quebec will be buying seasons passes to 2 trail areas. Different concept i wasnt aware of. There is no lifts or shuttles but you buy day or seasons passes and emtb is all good. Passes for "e47" and "sentier du moulin". I used to mtb with him in banff 20yrs ago before he moved home to start a family. He gave up mtb and became a competitive moto trials guy. Has a moto trials hookup with a new sherco mototrisls and enduro bikes. I got him to try an emtb . Now he's bought 2 and him and the boy are destroying themselves and the bikes and having a blast and on the emtb's more than anything. Both him and the biy are indestructable so i can only imagine what theyre doing. Bunch of drops and lots of massive bruises as far as i can tell

https://www.sentiersdumoulin.com/

I couldnt find any info on emtb on there site

They went to la massif too. That place looks set to go off. Bigish vert and perfect pitch and dirt for building


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[livefreerdie]

...
Im not doing any advocacy. I dealt with enough political bs living in a park for 25 yrs to fill 10 life times. Respect to anyone that does but im out ..[/URL]

If you would, please show respect by submitting the following comment. I'll even write it for you in your own style.

USFS. You should expand class 1 e-MTB access. Up in BC we don't swing our dicks like you Americans do, and so far it has worked out for our comingling. Learn some facts, like this one. Class 1 bikes should have a 500 watt limit like we do. And frig off with those class 2 throttle bikes. They are for Oneall motox boot lickers. And class 3 is cute but dumb.
Sincerely,
Someone who doesn't "do" advocacy, but respects those who do.

[grinch]

If you would, please show respect by submitting the following comment. I'll even write it for you in your own style.

USFS. You should expand class 1 e-MTB access. Up in BC we don't swing our dicks like you Americans do, and so far it has worked out for our comingling. Learn some facts, like this one. Class 1 bikes should have a 500 watt limit like we do. And frig off with those class 2 throttle bikes. They are for Oneall motox boot lickers. And class 3 is cute but dumb.
Sincerely,
Someone who doesn't "do" advocacy, but respects those who do.

Haa i like it.....a lot. You havent been keeping score though. No one pays any attention to what i have to say and i don't expect that to change
*250w continuous

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[bendtheski]

Haaa , thanks for pulling punches amd sparing me. Pugski appeared on the emtb forums. A bit bland and people just strolled right past the posts. No advocacy there , its all open to most of them there so they don't really care(semi UK centric) unless theyre really bored. Rainy day for me so im bored. Rainy day for them is just another day

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If the sun don’t come you get a tan from standing in the English rain.

[SkiLyft]

Grinch, I gotta say, I love your passion for the sport!

Anyways... there is no denying it — eMTB is here to stay in the states we just gotta find out where they should be ridden!!


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[toast2266]

we just gotta find out where they should be ridden!!

Pretty sure we've figured that out: Canada and Europe.

[grinch]

Pretty sure we've figured that out: Canada and Europe.

There you go again. Seemingly learning nothing. I gave you lots of data points. You said yourself that you dont fully know how your bike works and have only ridden it 5 times. A lot of commenters in here have formed an opinion based on how they think entb's work and where they should be categorized but they really don't know how well they co exist on mtb trails. FTR im talking class1 emtb's. Would you want hikers writing in to usfs telling usfs how mtb's function and what their effects would be on trails? We all know how that will go. Don't you want to have a truthful formed opinion when you write to usfs instead of litigating under false pretences? I'm sure emtb riders would appreciate accurate interpretations and would join with mtb to even out the mtb vs hiker lobby. At the very least you should have learned that class 1 functions together with mtb in other places at this point. We've all seen the growth. It should be relatively ez to be up to date on where things are headed and atleast comment to usfs while being informed.
I'd like to think if i had the stats that altasnob posted on the breakdown of lobby $ between mtb and hikers, and the shortfall that mtb needed to be on a semi even keel with the hikers, that i'd be actively trying to recruit emtb to get their shit together and show up. Especially knowing emtb and mtb co exist in the majority of places. Do you want to win or fight a needless battle on 2 fronts? You're not making up the shortfall with current mtb growth(another important data point to keep in mind)

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[toast2266]

^^^ I've already said it: class 1 is the problem. I'm all in on throttles.

[grinch]

Braaap!! I knew it!! It will be standard nomenclature now. "That trail is toast!!"

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[thefortrees]

^^^ hey now, some of my favorite trails around home are “rogue” braaap built trails. Gotta thank those guys for climbing up steep lines that we can ride down!

[Bunion 2020]

You're not making up the shortfall with current mtb growth(another important data point to keep in mind)

I think the point he is making is that you have repeatedly said you are here to troll.

Whats good for the Goose?

Who was it that wrote that. "Honk"

[toast2266]

Braaap!! I knew it!! It will be standard nomenclature now. "That trail is toast!!"

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Your irrational hatred of throttle ebikes isn't based on facts. Look at the facts! There's no evidence that they cause damage to trails, and they're great for the elderly and infirm! But mostly I like them because of wet roots. I can ride up wet roots with far less effort - it's a fun technical challenge.

[meter-man]

This thread...is very frustrating. Some really great posts in here, and then some folks (ONE In particular) have decided that they want the thread to be about ME AND MY VIEWS.

So, here ya go, Grinch: I made a thread just for you -- go nuts! https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-s-eMTB-thread