USFS proposed rule to revamp eMTB access (Sept. 2020)

[Dee Hubbs]

Anecdotally among my riding partners cost & weight of ebikes is why they don't get one. With cost being the primary factor.

You cant dumpster dive for eBikes.... yet.

[eldereldo]

Hey Lee, you might know this. My understanding on the high alpine trails, IE Into the Mystic etc, that one of the reasons that those trails were able to be built was because the effort to access them, would restrict the number of people getting into the alpine to a level that managers agreed was reasonable and didn’t poise a threat to the environment. If ebike use explodes and people insist that they should be able to ride those trails, and start ignoring the closure in significant numbers, I can see them being closed and deactivated as the easiest way to stop access. You think this is a possibility?

[kootenayskier]

Thanks for the input kootenayskier. Are ebikes allowed on the Seven Summits trail? Curious because that trail passes through high alpine, more fragile terrain. That trail is the main attraction for tourist bikers coming to Rossland.

Sounds like ebikes live in harmony in the West Kootenays (population, what, 100k for the entire region). Different situation for trails outside Seattle, Denver, ect (populations 4 million).

Seven Summits was one of three (out of 70) mtb trails for which we successfully argued for and implemented an EBike restriction, based on trail fragility and potential overuse, potential impacts on wildlife, compatibility with bikers on a long narrow Single-track climb, and compatibility with hikers. I still think it’s a good idea to maintain this conservative approach, as there are still many unknowns, but my gut feel is that the restriction won’t be permanent.

[grinch]

Ridership in North Van, Squamish, Whistler has skyrocketed actually. The trailcounters at Fromme for eg is approx 3x that of last year. Many more people rediscovering biking as a good way to get out while maintaining distance -- >there are so many trailheads, trails and places to go that even density of population is only a factor at more popular destinations during the busiest times.

Anecdotally among my riding partners cost & weight of ebikes is why they don't get one. With cost being the primary factor.

Do u have a rough idea how many riders/day on vancouver trails? I seem to remember a figure of 4000/day but that was atleast 10 years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if its in excess of 6k/day now and with the covid

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[kootenayskier]

“Question for the Canadians who are border adjacent: have you ever attempted to provide input to a US agency on policy decisions? If so, what was the response, if any?”

From my limited experience with US agencies in northern Washington (where I could and would make a contribution) individuals I can access are approachable, but without decision making authority in a top down, command and control hierarchy. I wouldn’t know where to start in engaging with the politics of wherever it could make a difference.

[altasnob]

Kootneyski probably already knows this, but the land immediately south of Rossland to Northport, WA is all private land. So unlikely there will ever be any trail development on the Washington side of the border. You have to go farther West, and East, to get to Colville National Forest. Appears most trails on Colville National Forest are open to mountain bikes (like Kettle Crest). Have to go even farther East to Salmo-Priest Wilderness where they are off limits. I hope to retire in this zone someday.

[grinch]

I can't even load metric man's usfs link, just the bike mag article. Geo block on gov't docs?

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[LeeLau]

Hey Lee, you might know this. My understanding on the high alpine trails, IE Into the Mystic etc, that one of the reasons that those trails were able to be built was because the effort to access them, would restrict the number of people getting into the alpine to a level that managers agreed was reasonable and didn’t poise a threat to the environment. If ebike use explodes and people insist that they should be able to ride those trails, and start ignoring the closure in significant numbers, I can see them being closed and deactivated as the easiest way to stop access. You think this is a possibility?

Correct. The trail is on RMOW (Whistler Muni) land. Wildlife impacts and alpine wear was a big consideration. The ebike regulation is a RMOW restriction

[meter-man]

As part of a larger project, Tahoe National Forest just approved 35 miles of existing trail for eMTB use. Here's the environmental assessment: https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/ww...T3_5347056.pdf The approval also includes 71 miles of motorized use trails, some of which will be appropriate for biking and some will be appropriate for swimming in bottomless decomposed granite.

Here's the project page: https://www.fs.usda.gov/project/?project=57704

TNF's analysis is quite solid, and reflects lots of the reasonable responses in this thread. Good to see. Pages 37-40 of the EA addressing Recreation are particularly good.

This comes after TNF tried to approve six trails for eMTB usage a couple years ago, the horsie orgs sued them, and USFS settled the litigation.

Ridership in North Van, Squamish, Whistler has skyrocketed actually. The trailcounters at Fromme for eg is approx 3x that of last year. Many more people rediscovering biking as a good way to get out while maintaining distance -- >there are so many trailheads, trails and places to go that even density of population is only a factor at more popular destinations during the busiest times.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks, Lee. That's incredible...that you have trailcounters!! Just kidding, the usage explosion is crazy. But I'm also imagining the world-class meltdowns if every mouth-breathing 'Merrrikan got "scanned" at the trailhead.

[LeeLau]

Do u have a rough idea how many riders/day on vancouver trails? I seem to remember a figure of 4000/day but that was atleast 10 years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if its in excess of 6k/day now and with the covid

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No idea. The Fromme counter is just for one trailhead and there's lots of trailheads.

[altasnob]

The counters in Seattle are just wires within rubber tubes strung across the bike path. Imagine that is what they are using in Canada.

https://www.seattle.gov/transportati.../bike-counters

Data for Freemont bridge:

https://data.seattle.gov/Transportat...nter/65db-xm6k

[grinch]

No idea. The Fromme counter is just for one trailhead and there's lots of trailheads.

Check. Its huge but a lot of trails too

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[t.odd]

Correct. The trail is on RMOW (Whistler Muni) land. Wildlife impacts and alpine wear was a big consideration. The ebike regulation is a RMOW restriction

point of order...Crown land within municipal boundaries. the wildlife/alpine impacts/volume was a consideration, but the fact most people don't know is that the project almost did not happen and was nearly derailed by the hiking lobby (ACC Whistler board of the time). The hiking group had done a hiking trail report/proposed expansion while a few of us on the WORCA side were working through our concept/proposal unbeknownst to each other, the ideas overlapped on Sproatt so WORCA suggested a combined approach to the RMOW. Part of the rational was controlling unmanaged use which was taking off in the alpine (UUAA) and causing vegetation trampling due to an unestablished route/trail. We had to commit to a non shuttle, backcountry style, cross country, human powered approach to get the project approved, and part of that was no motors, it really was a very contentious issue and highlighted again that while we've gained a lot of respect for our work, there are still a lot of folks whom aren't keen to share the alpine and still hold very negative perceptions of mountain bikers.

The authorization and establishment of the trails explicitly said it would be fully non motorized. The Provincial policy allows for restricting ebikes on established trails if the partnership agreement holder so desires. The RMOW ebike policy essentially confirmed this for the Sproatt network although by then the grizzly bear and heavy use issues had become more prominent and mostly affirmed those prior decisions.

[t.odd]

Ah, gotcha. Thanks, Lee. That's incredible...that you have trailcounters!! Just kidding, the usage explosion is crazy. But I'm also imagining the world-class meltdowns if every mouth-breathing 'Merrrikan got "scanned" at the trailhead.

I haven't seen any counter data from 2020 yet, but I know when looking at ride log stats on Trailforks mid season I think we were already double the number of checkins over 2019. It's pretty nuts in the Sea to Sky....Squamish is a fucking gongshow on the trails.

[eldereldo]

I haven't seen any counter data from 2020 yet, but I know when looking at ride log stats on Trailforks mid season I think we were already double the number of checkins over 2019. It's pretty nuts in the Sea to Sky....Squamish is a fucking gongshow on the trails.

Funny, I just spent the last two weeks in Whistler, riding almost every day and hardly saw anyone, even when we did the Lost Lake trails, and then there were more hikers than bikers. Anything further out, IE Flank was as empty as I have ever seen it. Guess it might just be a late in the season thing as I know our trails near Calgary have been way busier as well.

[t.odd]

Funny, I just spent the last two weeks in Whistler, riding almost every day and hardly saw anyone, even when we did the Lost Lake trails, and then there were more hikers than bikers. Anything further out, IE Flank was as empty as I have ever seen it. Guess it might just be a late in the season thing as I know our trails near Calgary have been way busier as well.

kinda spotty weather the past few weeks too, really nice when nice, really shit when shit!

[LeeLau]

T.odd thx for clarification. Just wanted to get ahead of the fake news that WORCA banned ebikes and establish that it was the land manager's decision

[kootenayskier]

Kootneyski probably already knows this, but the land immediately south of Rossland to Northport, WA is all private land. So unlikely there will ever be any trail development on the Washington side of the border. You have to go farther West, and East, to get to Colville National Forest. Appears most trails on Colville National Forest are open to mountain bikes (like Kettle Crest). Have to go even farther East to Salmo-Priest Wilderness where they are off limits. I hope to retire in this zone someday.

Endless sweet empty Singletrack in the Colville NF, handbuilt by the CCC. Wilderness designation is a constant threat, but enforcement is limited in these parts. PM me if you want the low down.

[t.odd]

T.odd thx for clarification. Just wanted to get ahead of the fake news that WORCA banned ebikes and establish that it was the land manager's decision

all good, clear that it was out of town layman's version...you know I'm a stickler for the details! ha

[TahoeJ]

OH, and this is a good story. Ever hear of the Flume Trail in Tahoe? It's by far the most IKONIC trail in Tahoe, with crazy views. It goes mostly through a Nevada State Park. I don't know what the rules on eMTBs are on that trail, but the two times I've ridden it since last July, there were a lot (more than 1/2?) of users on battery-motor-bikes. I don't care. I love more trail users, ESPECIALLY those who are new to the sport and never get outside. My 78 year old dad is now riding an e-bike (on roads) because his knees are too fucked to do much of anything else. Anyway, point is, I LIKE the concept of e-bikes.

Anyway, so tons of tourists get rented eMTBs and are pointed/shuttled to the Flume Trail. Friend who has a shop tells me a lady (not a regular biker) accidentally accelerated out of control at the most consequential section of the trail. If you've ridden, you know what happened next. Both she and her bike took a 1,200 foot (350m) tumbling fall down the slope, almost all the way to Sand Harbor. Bike was totalled, she escaped with minor injury. Then she tried to blame THE BIKE for causing the accident because it "accelerated out-of-control." The shop responded "yeah, no, you're gonna have to pay for that bike."

You can't make this shit up.

Anyway, regulation and trail approvals should recognize the different users, their mode(s) of travel, the amount of users, environmental considerations, etc. Simply pretending an ebike is the same as a pedal bike, because it also has wheels and pedals, does not pass the sniff test. And would probably fail in American court.

Okay, back to obs mode...

That's crazy. That one part of Flume freaks me out and even though it's plenty wide to ride safely, I'm more concerned about someone coming too quickly in the other direction and doing something stupid (this happened to me on there once), so I'll often get off my bike and walk.

[Quadzilla]

That's crazy. That one part of Flume freaks me out and even though it's plenty wide to ride safely, I'm more concerned about someone coming too quickly in the other direction and doing something stupid (this happened to me on there once), so I'll often get off my bike and walk.

I would say that the Tahoe Flume trail has had more MTB traffic over the decades than maybe any trail system in the US or worldwide? I have ridden that trail many times since the 80's and one thing that stands out is that bikes have not caused deterioration of the trail itself and it is now better than before. Sure there has been maintenance but overall with all the use, Ebikes as well MTB has not damaged or caused permanent harm. So it can be used as a example when others try to say MTB, Ebikes destroy the environment and soil.

[eldereldo]

kinda spotty weather the past few weeks too, really nice when nice, really shit when shit!

. Yeh, I guess we just had good timing, we arrived just after the rain/snow at the end of September and left just as it started to rain again for the long weekend.

[toast2266]

So it can be used as a example when others try to say MTB, Ebikes destroy the environment and soil.

Not saying that ebikes cause any particularly egregious amount of erosion, but this sort of thing is going to vary dramatically from location to location. Just because the soil in one area can handle increased traffic doesn't mean that applies to other areas.

Hell, even in one specific location it'll vary. There are local trails around me that could handle a considerable increase in use and be fine. There are others that, for various reasons, won't hold up to increased use very well at all.

[grinch]

I guess if a person was really good at ebiking they'd only need 5 days on one to figure that out......
Pro tip- do you know what surface is immune to erosion?



















Wet











Roots

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[Bunion 2020]

I rode the Flume exactly 1 time while I was in Tahoe for a conference.

Nice trail, great views but I don't really recall much up and down.