USFS proposed rule to revamp eMTB access (Sept. 2020)

[grinch]

Didnt the gov't leave it up to local land managers?

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[toast2266]

Didnt the gov't leave it up to local land managers?

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Wait, wait. Are you saying you haven't studied the facts?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Local managers are the government. Forest supervisors and District Rangers have discretion but it has limits. They still have to approve trail design based on certain criteria. There are EIS’s to deal with, they often approve new trails in trade for decommissioning illegal trails. There are areas outside of Wilderness that are strictly non motorized. There are very strong hiker and equestrian lobbies. It’s really hard to change non motorized designation because there are hundreds of miles of trails built by motorcycle groups and people want non motorized trails. It doesn’t really matter what your perception is when it comes to e bikes down here.

Are you beginning to understand how things are done here.


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[skaredshtles]

Local managers are the government. Forest supervisors and District Rangers have discretion but it has limits. They still have to approve trail design based on certain criteria. There are EIS’s to deal with, they often approve new trails in trade for decommissioning illegal trails. There are areas outside of Wilderness that are strictly non motorized. There are very strong hiker and equestrian lobbies. It’s really hard to change non motorized designation because there are hundreds of miles of trails built by motorcycle groups and people want non motorized trails. It doesn’t really matter what your perception is when it comes to e bikes down here.

Are you beginning to understand how things are done here.


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grinch, probably:

[grinch]

Some day I might actually invest in an emtb when I run out of gears. In the mean time, I'll be here triggering more of your incoherent butthurt rants.

I guess it can be about "running out of gears" but you're missing the majority of the added bonus' to them.
Wet rooty rides, depending on the trail, can be neatr impossible spinning out on a pbike when theyre just a fun challenge on an emtb. Awesome lsst 2 days and saw no other riders because wet roots. Would be less than zero chances of problems at that speed anyway. Ability to climb hike a bike trails(that activity is nit for the faint of heart), sessioning jump trails, dh laps without shuttling, trail network access without having to drive there, moee inclined to go back and get that deadfall after you get your saw, skip the day off and get a lap, dead tired after shoveling at work all day? No problem to jump on and get a lap. I especially like it for the resort. I can add a sidecountry extension in every lap and zip back to the gondi for more and/or stick in an alpine lap. Really helped when i broke my collarbone in the spring. 4 days off the bike, then pedaled around the flat trails exploring all the spots ive never looked at for a few days, then i was able to have fun on tech climbs. With the added flow with the assist its as fun as the downs. After those climbs i couldnt do any drops because i thought my shoulder would explode. It hurt sucking up bumps or pulling up the front wheel so i just went slower and worked on smooth lines but the climbs were so fun and the blood flow accelerated the healing. Despite it only being a couple mph faster on a tech climb its the difference between turning the pedal over(on a p bike) vs cnsistent pedal force and having flow on the emtb. The ratio is stacked more towards bike handling than cardio on the emtb all while still getting youre workout. Everyday cant be high intensity or you burnout. Like the handy bike park , the emtb has given me consistency and a lot of added fitness. After a couple bad injury years ive lost 20 lbs and am almost back to my previous speed/comfort/safety on a bike. Consistency is the key to not crashing, speed, fun and overall health.
In the training game they say, its ez to train hard but hard to train ez. I overtrained gor years despite knowing that. I couldnt stick to my training schedule if there was a ling sunny period. Now im aiming for consistency and keeping it fun. Ill gain more in the long run and get more vert day to day as well. I probably won't be "everesting" because its too much for pretty much everyone. We could all accomplush it with some work and achieve it if its a goal but your body pays a price. My goal is to have fun and have enough endurance to have a full day. No more no less. Couldnt care less about my race speed. Those days are long gone. Wish i could take back all the road work and the windtrainers i burnt through. Better ways to get fitvand have fun

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[BCMtnHound]

Of course! And even now you're right. There are so many of us independents punching in trail (I'm one of them) that the smart land managers are coming to the table. All I'm saying is that trail access didn't start because of rogue building and poaching. Trail access started because we forced it. The SANCTIONED trail access started because of trail associations with the song and dance. I guess that's all I'm driving at




Yup we agree



Talked to my Canmore and Banff friends and what a weird attitude there is to biking. Such hypocrisy. Golf courses ok but bike trails blow.

"class 1 does no harm to anyone". So far so good and yeah I got to say it looks better than I thought. I was worried the land managers would come down heavy on ebikes and screw things up for RCA, KCTS, Golden Cycling or the SWBC trail orgs. But so far everyone's fitting in well and the friction people were worrying about hasn't happened. Even on the rogue side the ebikers are no better or worse in poaching loamers in the wet than anyone else so that's also a non-issue

[/QUOTE]

A lot of what we enjoy on the crown lands are a result of the old Ministry of Sustainable Resource Mgmt (MSRM), back in the 90's. At the time it was regarded as a clusterfuck, but there were oodles of public and private consultation meetings to determine a given area's primary and secondary land uses, and develop strategies where significant overlap (and conflict) occurred. That work still drives land use decision-making today. But the ministry was dissolved in the late 90's/early millennium, and little further consultative work has occurred outside of the Ministry of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation. BC Parks always have had their management plans, and they can be updated as the park officials decide. Land tenures have their squabbles addressed by their respective ministries/decision makers, and untenured crown land recreation is managed by Rec Sites and Trails (MFLNRORD) with enforcement primarily conducted by twig pigs and the COS, both of which are hugely under funded & under resourced.
The southern Island(s) and the lower mainland populations are getting interesting in their advocacy and use, while the rest of the province is trying to figure out rec/wildlife/1stNations. I wish we would re-start the old MSRM dialogue, but as yet the political and corporate will is not there.
So ya, it's still the wild west on most crown land in the province if you want to make a trail for just about any use you can think of.

[altasnob]

Grinch and Lee Lau are clueless when it comes to the US. They live in a country where:
-you can go in the woods, build a hut (illegally) and so long as you keep it open to the public, the government turns a blind eye about the structure. In the US, you would be put in jail for doing this.
-a private company can get permission to put a scenic gondola through the middle of a provincial park (Sea to Sky), which would be like putting a gondola through a national park in the US.
-if you want to go backpacking, but don't like hiking, and don't like sleeping in tents, you can heli in and stay at a fancy hotel in beautiful alpine terrain.
-99% of old growth trees have been cut (in BC).
-they drive giant buses on glaciers for the tourists.
-they have British style tea houses in the mountains.
-the sidecountry of ski resorts is tracked out by fat heli-skiing dentists.
-snowmobiles can go nearly everywhere.
-and despite Lee Lau's claim that land access in the US is fucked, I find that there are more miles of trails (hiking) easily accessible from Seattle than there is from Vancouver. Some of this is due to the ruggedness of the mountains immediately outside of Vancouver. The provincial park trails they do have are extremely well manicured, with warming stations and tent pads. I thought trails near Seattle were crowded. That was before I went to Elfin Lakes.

I realize most TGR bro brahs probably wish US land access was more like Canada. Me and John Muir disagree.

[grinch]

grinch, probably:

Youre bootlicking bud. Youve brought nothing. You and skydrift should study together. You might learn something. Doubt it but you won't know until you try

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[skaredshtles]

Youre bootlicking bud. Youve brought nothing. You and skydrift should study together. You might learn something. Doubt it but you won't know until you try

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[altasnob]

I see that you can ebike on Mount Fromme (North Shore, Vancouver). What a shame. When I road there years ago I found that Fromme had the highest quality trails in the North Shore specifically because you could not shuttle and had to ride up. Less riders means trails stay in better shape longer. With ebikes, I imagine the trails are as chewed up as the shuttle rides.

[climberevan]

If he'd bother to read the USFS's actual documentation rather than simply bloviating, Grinch would know that the current (and proposed) language very clearly differentiates between motorized vehicles (electric or gas) and human powered vehicles. They don't currently differentiate between the various made-up classes of e-mopeds, but the new proposed language will do so, while making it even more clear that they are in fact motorized vehicles for the purposes of management.

Grinch pretty much loses all credibility when he so willfully ignores these undisputed facts, the knowledge of which is available in this very thread.

[grinch]

I see that you can ebike on Mount Fromme (North Shore, Vancouver). What a shame. When I road there years ago I found that Fromme had the highest quality trails in the North Shore specifically because you could not shuttle and had to ride up. Less riders means trails stay in better shape longer. With ebikes, I imagine the trails are as chewed up as the shuttle rides.

Idk but sounds like youre imagining bad things again

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[grinch]

If he'd bother to read the USFS's actual documentation rather than simply bloviating, Grinch would know that the current (and proposed) language very clearly differentiates between motorized vehicles (electric or gas) and human powered vehicles. They don't currently differentiate between the various made-up classes of e-mopeds, but the new proposed language will do so, while making it even more clear that they are in fact motorized vehicles for the purposes of management.

Grinch pretty much loses all credibility when he so willfully ignores these undisputed facts, the knowledge of which is available in this very thread.

Something written on a piece of paper means sfa if it wont stand the test of time. Your ignorance on the capability , and in particular the ability to seemlessly interact on mtb trails, of emtb's is your stumbling block and where you lose any credibility/full stop

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[Dee Hubbs]

I see that you can ebike on Mount Fromme (North Shore, Vancouver). What a shame. When I road there years ago I found that Fromme had the highest quality trails in the North Shore specifically because you could not shuttle and had to ride up. Less riders means trails stay in better shape longer. With ebikes, I imagine the trails are as chewed up as the shuttle rides.

Or is it because the trails are built and maintained by trail builders that don't have to jump through permits and red tap and Environmental Impact Surveys and approval from The Forest Service to go dig a better corner, or chainsaw a 20" tree that fell across the trial.
When the trial is shit, we go fix it with our tools, and on our time, not by waiting for permission with some special golden shovel issued by the government, that took months of process for approval.

[grinch]

You all remind me of the whiny kids on pinkbike. You could design the most innovative part, bike, tool, kit in history and a million useful innovations and theyd still go on there and find some bad thing about it or just make up some hypothetical bad issue with no basis. The whiner squad "we ignore any benefit despite there being no issue so we can make up something to whine about"
Congrats for upholding your moto. Real integrity there
Tissue?

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[abraham]

Well screw it all then. I'm going to roll like this on all trails, including the PCT from now on. Rules and laws don't apply and hikers won't be pissed and create a backlash because I'm polite.Attachment 343380

Put some pedals on that sucker and you're good to go where you like.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Something written on a piece of paper means sfa if it wont stand the test of time. Your ignorance on the capability , and in particular the ability to seemlessly interact on mtb trails, of emtb's is your stumbling block and where you lose any credibility/full stop

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Ok, here’s another thought experiment. Is it possible that because of cultural differences between say, Europe, Canada and the US that the subjective perception that ebikes can seamlessly integrate with human powered users might differ between the different cultures? For better or worse the US isn’t Canada and certainly not the EU culturally.


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[grinch]

Put some pedals on that sucker and you're good to go where you like.

Pile on the stoopid.
We'll just ignore that class1 emtb works fine with other trail users and a motox doesnt. I mean its obvious for all with 2 clues to rub together.
On a scale of 1 to 100 with an mtb being one and a moto being 100 the emtb is a 2, 3, or 4 depending on what mode youre using(roughly). If you don't know that or can't accept or admit that you have zero credibility. Kind of ends the conversation at stoopid

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[altasnob]

Or is it because the trails are built and maintained by trail builders that don't have to jump through permits and red tap and Environmental Impact Surveys and approval from The Forest Service to go dig a better corner, or chainsaw a 20" tree that fell across the trial.
When the trial is shit, we go fix it with our tools, and on our time, not by waiting for permission with some special golden shovel issued by the government, that took months of process for approval.

In Washington, new trails are on state and private land. So trail volunteers go fix the trails just like they do around Vancouver. While Vancouver biking used be head and shoulders above Washington, that gap is closing. Point being, you can protect some (or most lands) from bikes and still find ways to build new bike trails and even ebike trails. All of the foothills of the Western Washington Cascades are either private timber land or state owned forest lands. There is a shit ton of opportunity for new trails here. Environmental laws are not stopping trails here. Map of all the new trail projects in the state:

https://www.evergreenmtb.org/trails/projects

[skaredshtles]

Put some pedals on that sucker and you're good to go where you like.

Wondering if I'll be OK with this?

[rideit]

The fact that thing only has a single cantilever brake is frightening.

[skaredshtles]

The fact that thing only has a single cantilever brake is frightening.

Go fast, take chances, amirite??

[abraham]

Wondering if I'll be OK with this?

That's an interesting way to have pedal and motor power to the rear wheel.

[LeeLau]

Or is it because the trails are built and maintained by trail builders that don't have to jump through permits and red tap and Environmental Impact Surveys and approval from The Forest Service to go dig a better corner, or chainsaw a 20" tree that fell across the trial.
When the trial is shit, we go fix it with our tools, and on our time, not by waiting for permission with some special golden shovel issued by the government, that took months of process for approval.

I am constantly reminded of "Talking To Americans" from This Hour when altasnob types/tripes.

[bendtheski]

I guess it can be about "running out of gears" but you're missing the majority of the added bonus' to them.
Wet rooty rides, depending on the trail, can be neatr impossible spinning out on a pbike when theyre just a fun challenge on an emtb. Awesome lsst 2 days and saw no other riders because wet roots. Would be less than zero chances of problems at that speed anyway. Ability to climb hike a bike trails(that activity is nit for the faint of heart), sessioning jump trails, dh laps without shuttling, trail network access without having to drive there, moee inclined to go back and get that deadfall after you get your saw, skip the day off and get a lap, dead tired after shoveling at work all day? No problem to jump on and get a lap. I especially like it for the resort. I can add a sidecountry extension in every lap and zip back to the gondi for more and/or stick in an alpine lap. Really helped when i broke my collarbone in the spring. 4 days off the bike, then pedaled around the flat trails exploring all the spots ive never looked at for a few days, then i was able to have fun on tech climbs. With the added flow with the assist its as fun as the downs. After those climbs i couldnt do any drops because i thought my shoulder would explode. It hurt sucking up bumps or pulling up the front wheel so i just went slower and worked on smooth lines but the climbs were so fun and the blood flow accelerated the healing. Despite it only being a couple mph faster on a tech climb its the difference between turning the pedal over(on a p bike) vs cnsistent pedal force and having flow on the emtb. The ratio is stacked more towards bike handling than cardio on the emtb all while still getting youre workout. Everyday cant be high intensity or you burnout. Like the handy bike park , the emtb has given me consistency and a lot of added fitness. After a couple bad injury years ive lost 20 lbs and am almost back to my previous speed/comfort/safety on a bike. Consistency is the key to not crashing, speed, fun and overall health.
In the training game they say, its ez to train hard but hard to train ez. I overtrained gor years despite knowing that. I couldnt stick to my training schedule if there was a ling sunny period. Now im aiming for consistency and keeping it fun. Ill gain more in the long run and get more vert day to day as well. I probably won't be "everesting" because its too much for pretty much everyone. We could all accomplush it with some work and achieve it if its a goal but your body pays a price. My goal is to have fun and have enough endurance to have a full day. No more no less. Couldnt care less about my race speed. Those days are long gone. Wish i could take back all the road work and the windtrainers i burnt through. Better ways to get fitvand have fun

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A coherent, and relatively well composed endorsement; well done. You touched on most of the reasons I'm considering an ebike to continue riding into my 60's and hopefully 70's. I'm still doing ok(ish) under my own power, but as I said in the other thread, some rides are becoming more and more challenging, and the reality is setting in that they will eventually get crossed off my trailmap. An ebike could postpone that for a while.

You might sway more people to your cause with a more measured approach here. I know I'm a cunt, but really just bored and playing devil's advocate. Most of the arguments I've presented are ones we've all heard, and will hear again. I have yet to encounter an emtb on my favorite loop, and seriously doubt congestion will ever be a problem there, but it's already a huge problem on many loops nearby. The increased recreational traffic in the state due to covid has just made matters worse, and I expect it's just a matter of time before people start bitching, and authorities drop the ban hammer. Your advocacy and engagement could help avoid that with a more measured approach. The whole "if you're not with us, you're against us" assumption not garnering much support from what I've seen.

I used to be able to ride Kreitler rollers for 30 miles with no hands, who wants to touch me?