USFS proposed rule to revamp eMTB access (Sept. 2020)

[meter-man]

Good article on why it's different in Europe: https://www.singletracks.com/uncateg...isted-cycling/

Also, it looks like the Europe Commission only came up with their regulatory definition of eMTB in 2019. https://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulat...019.1602685396 Contrary to some opinions, their "regulation" isn't that old. And each country implementing it can choose to do so on its own terms, subject to the reg.

From the singletracks article, it sounds like the main difference is primarily cultural - prominence of bikes period and a more laissez faire approach to regulation of trail use.

Oddly though, America ain't Europe. We don't have Norweigian health care, or French holiday and vacations, or Spanish siestas, or Czech animo. While those examples are useful, just pointing at them without recognizing the differences is not useful.

The history of litigation and conflict over trail use in the US is totally different - and totally insane. Figuring out how to do trail policy here is a tightrope. Pretending it's super easy, without conflict, and that more users simply equals more trails just ignores reality.

Thanks for the useful contributions in this thread - some really great thoughts in here too.

[meter-man]

OH, and this is a good story. Ever hear of the Flume Trail in Tahoe? It's by far the most IKONIC trail in Tahoe, with crazy views. It goes mostly through a Nevada State Park. I don't know what the rules on eMTBs are on that trail, but the two times I've ridden it since last July, there were a lot (more than 1/2?) of users on battery-motor-bikes. I don't care. I love more trail users, ESPECIALLY those who are new to the sport and never get outside. My 78 year old dad is now riding an e-bike (on roads) because his knees are too fucked to do much of anything else. Anyway, point is, I LIKE the concept of e-bikes.

Anyway, so tons of tourists get rented eMTBs and are pointed/shuttled to the Flume Trail. Friend who has a shop tells me a lady (not a regular biker) accidentally accelerated out of control at the most consequential section of the trail. If you've ridden, you know what happened next. Both she and her bike took a 1,200 foot (350m) tumbling fall down the slope, almost all the way to Sand Harbor. Bike was totalled, she escaped with minor injury. Then she tried to blame THE BIKE for causing the accident because it "accelerated out-of-control." The shop responded "yeah, no, you're gonna have to pay for that bike."

You can't make this shit up.

Anyway, regulation and trail approvals should recognize the different users, their mode(s) of travel, the amount of users, environmental considerations, etc. Simply pretending an ebike is the same as a pedal bike, because it also has wheels and pedals, does not pass the sniff test. And would probably fail in American court.

Okay, back to obs mode...

[toast2266]

From the singletracks article, it sounds like the main difference is primarily cultural - prominence of bikes period and a more laissez faire approach to regulation of trail use.

Random aside: I've been thinking about how it's kinda funny that ebikes are ubiquitous and widely allowed on Europe, but are fairly restricted in the U.S., while snowmobiles are (relatively) widespread in the U.S. but heavily restricted in Europe.

It's funny how regulations for particular activities unfold in different places. I bet a lot of regulatory policy in any given location can be traced back to a small group of people that had a bug up their butt, and were in the right place at the right time to get restrictions in place.

[kootenayskier]

FWIW I manage a network of multi-use trails in BC, and we're a couple of years in to a new Provincial policy that classifies Class 1 Ebikes as mountain bikes. While accepting Ebike use on 90% of our trails, we fought hard to restrict E-Bikes on small proportion of trails where we calculated that effort functioned as a filter to the volume of traffic on physically vulnerable and difficult to maintain trails. At this point I'm seeing steady growth on the proportion of Ebikes, relative to human powered bikes, currently skewed to an older demographic, but the trend (better technology, less stigma, declining idealism) seems clear, Ebikers will eventually be the majority of users, and I'm making all long term planning decisions on that basis. I personally revel in physical effort and technical challenge, but I've always been an anomaly in that respect, and though my initial response to Ebikes was negative, it's been surprisingly easy to come to a place of acceptance. My experience hasn't been diminished, and I focus on the overwhelming commonality we share in enjoying trails, and Ebikers seem both appreciative of my acceptance, and respectful of my effort. It's working out.

[XtrPickels]

FWIW I manage a network of multi-use trails in BC, and we're a couple of years in to a new Provincial policy that classifies Class 1 Ebikes as mountain bikes. While accepting Ebike use on 90% of our trails, we fought hard to restrict E-Bikes on small proportion of trails where we calculated that effort functioned as a filter to the volume of traffic on physically vulnerable and difficult to maintain trails. At this point I'm seeing steady growth on the proportion of Ebikes, relative to human powered bikes, currently skewed to an older demographic, but the trend (better technology, less stigma, declining idealism) seems clear, Ebikers will eventually be the majority of users, and I'm making all long term planning decisions on that basis. I personally revel in physical effort and technical challenge, but I've always been an anomaly in that respect, and though my initial response to Ebikes was negative, it's been surprisingly easy to come to a place of acceptance. My experience hasn't been diminished, and I focus on the overwhelming commonality we share in enjoying trails, and Ebikers seem both appreciative of my acceptance, and respectful of my effort. It's working out.

[skaredshtles]

I think the point he is making is that you have repeatedly said you are here to troll.

Whats good for the Goose?

Who was it that wrote that. "Honk"

Goddam trolls.

[LeeLau]

FWIW I manage a network of multi-use trails in BC, and we're a couple of years in to a new Provincial policy that classifies Class 1 Ebikes as mountain bikes. While accepting Ebike use on 90% of our trails, we fought hard to restrict E-Bikes on small proportion of trails where we calculated that effort functioned as a filter to the volume of traffic on physically vulnerable and difficult to maintain trails. At this point I'm seeing steady growth on the proportion of Ebikes, relative to human powered bikes, currently skewed to an older demographic, but the trend (better technology, less stigma, declining idealism) seems clear, Ebikers will eventually be the majority of users, and I'm making all long term planning decisions on that basis. I personally revel in physical effort and technical challenge, but I've always been an anomaly in that respect, and though my initial response to Ebikes was negative, it's been surprisingly easy to come to a place of acceptance. My experience hasn't been diminished, and I focus on the overwhelming commonality we share in enjoying trails, and Ebikers seem both appreciative of my acceptance, and respectful of my effort. It's working out.

S.

Same here in NV. For myself I've gone from slightly neutral to slightly positive & have used my wife's commuter ebike to haul tools for trailwork up access road. Most trail builders in the SeatoSky (sanctioned and rogues) who were worried about increased use have found the use to be about the same notwithstanding COVID effect where ridership has gone up. To elaborate most builders were concerned that trails that were higher in elevation or further distant and therefore had entry barriers to reach due to need for physical effort would get more traffic due to ebikes and therefore would need more work. That doesn't seem to be the case with the caveat that trail count numbers for summer have not yet been finalized

FWIW from NV, Squamish and Whistler. The majority of buyers are still high-income, males, working professionals with time-premium. A small number are older folks who want to get out and who weren't able to do so without discomfort in the past. A very small minority are young. The entry barrier still cited is (in this order) cost, weight, reliability.

[altasnob]

Thanks for the input kootenayskier. Are ebikes allowed on the Seven Summits trail? Curious because that trail passes through high alpine, more fragile terrain. That trail is the main attraction for tourist bikers coming to Rossland.

Sounds like ebikes live in harmony in the West Kootenays (population, what, 100k for the entire region). Different situation for trails outside Seattle, Denver, ect (populations 4 million).

[altasnob]

The entry barrier still cited is (in this order) cost, weight, reliability.

This is what I fear. In the not too distant future all of the above barriers will be reduced to 0. There will be no resason NOT to buy an ebike instead of a regular bike. I think even the most strident human powered supporters will give in if all their friends are rocking ebikes. I don't want to live in a world where 100% of mountain bikers have electric assist. Laws are the only thing that will prevent all mountain bikes from becoming ebikes.

[grinch]

^^^ hey now, some of my favorite trails around home are “rogue” braaap built trails. Gotta thank those guys for climbing up steep lines that we can ride down!

Sounds like squampton. I like!!

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[grinch]

Your irrational hatred of throttle ebikes isn't based on facts. Look at the facts! There's no evidence that they cause damage to trails, and they're great for the elderly and infirm! But mostly I like them because of wet roots. I can ride up wet roots with far less effort - it's a fun technical challenge.

Figured that from day 1!!

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[grinch]

Goddam trolls.

Shhhh the adults are posting now

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[grinch]

This thread...is very frustrating. Some really great posts in here, and then some folks (ONE In particular) have decided that they want the thread to be about ME AND MY VIEWS.

So, here ya go, Grinch: I made a thread just for you -- go nuts! https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-s-eMTB-thread

Bump!!

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[grinch]

Good article on why it's different in Europe: https://www.singletracks.com/uncateg...isted-cycling/

Also, it looks like the Europe Commission only came up with their regulatory definition of eMTB in 2019. https://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulat...019.1602685396 Contrary to some opinions, their "regulation" isn't that old. And each country implementing it can choose to do so on its own terms, subject to the reg.

From the singletracks article, it sounds like the main difference is primarily cultural - prominence of bikes period and a more laissez faire approach to regulation of trail use.

Oddly though, America ain't Europe. We don't have Norweigian health care, or French holiday and vacations, or Spanish siestas, or Czech animo. While those examples are useful, just pointing at them without recognizing the differences is not useful.

The history of litigation and conflict over trail use in the US is totally different - and totally insane. Figuring out how to do trail policy here is a tightrope. Pretending it's super easy, without conflict, and that more users simply equals more trails just ignores reality.

Thanks for the useful contributions in this thread - some really great thoughts in here too.

Ya so leave a user group out that would and should be able to recreate without issue on those trails. Im sure that will work fine

OH, and this is a good story. Ever hear of the Flume Trail in Tahoe? It's by far the most IKONIC trail in Tahoe, with crazy views. It goes mostly through a Nevada State Park. I don't know what the rules on eMTBs are on that trail, but the two times I've ridden it since last July, there were a lot (more than 1/2?) of users on battery-motor-bikes. I don't care. I love more trail users, ESPECIALLY those who are new to the sport and never get outside. My 78 year old dad is now riding an e-bike (on roads) because his knees are too fucked to do much of anything else. Anyway, point is, I LIKE the concept of e-bikes.

Anyway, so tons of tourists get rented eMTBs and are pointed/shuttled to the Flume Trail. Friend who has a shop tells me a lady (not a regular biker) accidentally accelerated out of control at the most consequential section of the trail. If you've ridden, you know what happened next. Both she and her bike took a 1,200 foot (350m) tumbling fall down the slope, almost all the way to Sand Harbor. Bike was totalled, she escaped with minor injury. Then she tried to blame THE BIKE for causing the accident because it "accelerated out-of-control." The shop responded "yeah, no, you're gonna have to pay for that bike."

You can't make this shit up.

Anyway, regulation and trail approvals should recognize the different users, their mode(s) of travel, the amount of users, environmental considerations, etc. Simply pretending an ebike is the same as a pedal bike, because it also has wheels and pedals, does not pass the sniff test. And would probably fail in American court.

Okay, back to obs mode...

It had a throttle. Class 1 wouldnt accelerate out of control. This has been gone over.Throttle ebikes aee not what the usfs is talking about from your original post/thread title

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[grinch]

FWIW I manage a network of multi-use trails in BC, and we're a couple of years in to a new Provincial policy that classifies Class 1 Ebikes as mountain bikes. While accepting Ebike use on 90% of our trails, we fought hard to restrict E-Bikes on small proportion of trails where we calculated that effort functioned as a filter to the volume of traffic on physically vulnerable and difficult to maintain trails. At this point I'm seeing steady growth on the proportion of Ebikes, relative to human powered bikes, currently skewed to an older demographic, but the trend (better technology, less stigma, declining idealism) seems clear, Ebikers will eventually be the majority of users, and I'm making all long term planning decisions on that basis. I personally revel in physical effort and technical challenge, but I've always been an anomaly in that respect, and though my initial response to Ebikes was negative, it's been surprisingly easy to come to a place of acceptance. My experience hasn't been diminished, and I focus on the overwhelming commonality we share in enjoying trails, and Ebikers seem both appreciative of my acceptance, and respectful of my effort. It's working out.

Appreciate the level headed accounting, as well as the work

S.

Same here in NV. For myself I've gone from slightly neutral to slightly positive & have used my wife's commuter ebike to haul tools for trailwork up access road. Most trail builders in the SeatoSky (sanctioned and rogues) who were worried about increased use have found the use to be about the same notwithstanding COVID effect where ridership has gone up. To elaborate most builders were concerned that trails that were higher in elevation or further distant and therefore had entry barriers to reach due to need for physical effort would get more traffic due to ebikes and therefore would need more work. That doesn't seem to be the case with the caveat that trail count numbers for summer have not yet been finalized

FWIW from NV, Squamish and Whistler. The majority of buyers are still high-income, males, working professionals with time-premium. A small number are older folks who want to get out and who weren't able to do so without discomfort in the past. A very small minority are young. The entry barrier still cited is (in this order) cost, weight, reliability.

X2 as well

This is what I fear. In the not too distant future all of the above barriers will be reduced to 0. There will be no resason NOT to buy an ebike instead of a regular bike. I think even the most strident human powered supporters will give in if all their friends are rocking ebikes. I don't want to live in a world where 100% of mountain bikers have electric assist. Laws are the only thing that will prevent all mountain bikes from becoming ebikes.

You do you. That shouldnt effect your ride

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[skaredshtles]

Shhhh the adults are posting now

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[meter-man]

You must be fun at parties.

For real though -- are you trying to convince people to support welcoming eMTBs onto all trails? I think that's your goal.

Cool - go nuts. You do have some useful facts. But shoving them down people's throats and being objectively aggressive will not help you convince people.

LeeLau, what's NV? I know it's not Nevada - is it Nunavut?

[grinch]

Dood youre clogging metric mans thread. He needs more comfirmation of his beliefs. Throttle crash gifs! We need some throttle crash gifs so he can fully understand the issues at hand. You're being irresponsible!! And entitled!!!

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[skaredshtles]

Dood youre clogging metric mans thread.

Ironic.

[grinch]

Ironic.

There's no fooling you

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[rideit]

LeeLau, what's NV? I know it's not Nevada - is it Nunavut?

its just North of South Vangroovy.

[meter-man]

its just North of South Vangroovy.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks. Interesting to hear that there hasn't been much increased use in that area. Of course, COVID and border closures are doing weird stuff to trail usage everywhere.

[grinch]

Thanks for the input kootenayskier. Are ebikes allowed on the Seven Summits trail? Curious because that trail passes through high alpine, more fragile terrain. That trail is the main attraction for tourist bikers coming to Rossland.

Sounds like ebikes live in harmony in the West Kootenays (population, what, 100k for the entire region). Different situation for trails outside Seattle, Denver, ect (populations 4 million).

As singles out ks' post and attributes the lack of issues in the kootenays due to low pop. No mention of similar lack of issues in vancouver

Ah, gotcha. Thanks. Interesting to hear that there hasn't been much increased use in that area. Of course, COVID and border closures are doing weird stuff to trail usage everywhere.

Mm figures covid and border closures have NV with few riders thus no issues

This thread in a nut shell/smh

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[jono]

Question for the Canadians who are border adjacent: have you ever attempted to provide input to a US agency on policy decisions? If so, what was the response, if any?

I've never seen the USFS consider anything they couldn't be sued for not considering, but I'd be interested to see what that looks like if it's happened.

[LeeLau]

Ah, gotcha. Thanks. Interesting to hear that there hasn't been much increased use in that area. Of course, COVID and border closures are doing weird stuff to trail usage everywhere.

As singles out ks' post and attributes the lack of issues in the kootenays due to low pop. No mention of similar lack of issues in vancouverMm figures covid and border closures have NV with few riders thus no issues

This thread in a nut shell/smh

Ridership in North Van, Squamish, Whistler has skyrocketed actually. The trailcounters at Fromme for eg is approx 3x that of last year. Many more people rediscovering biking as a good way to get out while maintaining distance -- >there are so many trailheads, trails and places to go that even density of population is only a factor at more popular destinations during the busiest times.

Anecdotally among my riding partners cost & weight of ebikes is why they don't get one. With cost being the primary factor.