USFS proposed rule to revamp eMTB access (Sept. 2020)

[jono]

What are the class delineations in Canada? Seems like we were talking about 2 classes of pedal assist up to different speeds and class 3 throttle at some point. The USFS wants 2 classes of throttle and all classes putting out 1 hp. Is that new or has the BLM already gone that way?

[grinch]

I don't think anything with a throttle is legal here unless its private land. Havent heard of any enforcement though. Quite a few around town now cruisin the streets with big grins. Lots of older couples and g ma e bike squads
Class 1 pedal assist are classified the same as mtb in provincial parks but left up to the local trail associations for the trails that local associations maintain. Go where you want on crown land .
Emtb is allowed on a few alpine trails(provincial park trails), the dh/shuttle trails , bike park, local trails not under the cycling associations perview, one trail system that has a climb trail for a dh flow trail. No emtb at the xc trail system. They were trying to find some way to allow it for people with health issues but as i understand it theyre not able to. I see a few emtbs going up there and have heard reports of quite a few sightings. 90% of the trails are 2 way blue trails. No issues reported apart from some snowflake going off on someone on an emtb. Cycling association said "be nice, you don't know what the person on an emtb's circumstances are"/paraphrasing. Attitude seems to be evolving. More people are considering them. I don't bring the subject up but the last 3 rides ive had a group of 20 somethings (local rippers) say they want one. It doesnt seem like theres been any problems or atleast thart i'm aware of. No discussion recently on the associations fb page. A few months ago was the last i saw a discussion. Went something like "im seeing emtb often at the xc area" reply "has it impacted your ride" answer "no"/end of story. Unless there's something im unaware of. Ive only taken mine there twice last year and twice this year because it was raining and those trails handle the rain the best and there was no one on the wet rooty trails. No excusing my behavior just explaining why i knowingly broke the law. Once shot a man just to watch him die too, but i was bored

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[jono]

It's weird--I was thinking that would be kind of interesting to know, but now I realize it's probably just more interesting to Canadians.

[gravitylover]

Re: More injuries - Yeti's point about more significant injuries to users that previously wouldn't have even been out there is real but if we're going down that path we should probably ban high horsepower cars like Mustangs and Camaros because people can't control themselves and do dumb shit and run into crowded sidewalks as they'e spinning off the road. Again, e-bike problems are user problems. Lets regulate the users not the bikes. No more morons! Yeah... We see how well user regulation works, look at all of the fantastic drivers out there who pay attention to all the rules, especially the ones that drive after their licenses are suspended or revoked.

Again, I don't think that throttle bikes belong off road and class 3 is questionable in my mind but I get it that many people ride the road to get to the trail and on road it's necessary to go that fast.

[El Chupacabra]

Re: More injuries - Yeti's point about more significant injuries to users that previously wouldn't have even been out there is real but if we're going down that path we should probably ban high horsepower cars like Mustangs and Camaros because people can't control themselves and do dumb shit and run into crowded sidewalks as they'e spinning off the road. Again, e-bike problems are user problems. Lets regulate the users not the bikes. No more morons! Yeah... We see how well user regulation works, look at all of the fantastic drivers out there who pay attention to all the rules, especially the ones that drive after their licenses are suspended or revoked.

Again, I don't think that throttle bikes belong off road and class 3 is questionable in my mind but I get it that many people ride the road to get to the trail and on road it's necessary to go that fast.

Counterpoint: very few people are drivers who stopped driving for years, then got back into it by buying a car with 400-600 hp.

[Mudfoot]

. . . In relation to trails being more crowded — specifically In areas with already strained trail systems one might postulate that having a bunch of young / fit emtb riders will simply add more traffic and impact to the trail system.

If I look at my current riding habits I can crank out 12-14 miles with 2-2.5k vert in 1-2hours. If what I hear is true about ebikes then maybe my rides would start averaging 20 miles to get a similar work out... but what happens when all riders start increasing their rides by 25-40%?

I would guess that naturally trails would be busier with the same riders riding many more miles in the same time and the trails would begin to sustain much more wear. Am I crazy to think that emtb will lead to increased trail breakdown? . . .

I agree with this reasoning, and if you combine it with the new riders on e-bikes that will be attracted to less physically demanding trail riding we end up with a potential doubling of daily miles ridden and the corresponding hassles (parking, sewage, litter, user conflicts, etc.) and turf deterioration on all trails. I know quite a few seasoned people in Durango who have gone to mtb e-bikes and they are riding as often as ever but covering way more miles (while ignoring existing FS and BLM restrictions). It's doubtful trail maintenance and new trail building will keep up with the coming e-bike surge.

[Quadzilla]

I think Covid has had a way bigger impact on trail use and crowding than Emtb or any other factor. Around here many have moved from a job site to home based work and with all the restrictions, MTB and biking in general is allowed and safe(disease wise). Bike shops here are busier than ever selling and fixing. So, you want reliable stats, simply start counting number of bikes you actually see, cars with racks at the TH that you actually see and number of Ebikes you actually see. I am a little bias as I ride E most of the time but I don't actually see way bigger E numbers as compared to last year. But, I don't ride during afternoons and don't ride the busiest trails E or pedal very often.

As far as wrecks, bigger consequences ride E no doubt, Off road riding anything are judgement activities, Bad judgement will lead to bad consequences........

[jono]

Again, I don't think that throttle bikes belong off road and class 3 is questionable in my mind but I get it that many people ride the road to get to the trail and on road it's necessary to go that fast.

USFS is proposing that all pedal assist be class 1 and that classes 2 and 3 be throttle bikes (up to 20 and 28 mph). If EU regs limit class 1 to 15 mph at 250W and Canada limits everything to 500W, going to 750W under the USFS proposal seems like a good way to ensure there is no class that can commonly share trails with bicycles. Class 3 seems designed to share 25 mph streets.

See climberevan's post a page ago for the proposed regs.

Let's bring this back full-circle. The original thread title brings up the fact that USFS is considering some regulatory changes.

[gravitylover]

^^ Keeping it under 500W is fair I think. Even with the bad ticker I don't think I'd have a problem with that, if I can't get to where I want to go with that kind of power I don't belong there and that's ok as long as I'm allowed to try. 15mph or under is probably insufficient though. I'd be ok with it if they banned throttle bikes from (almost all) MUT's.

Counterpoint: very few people are drivers who stopped driving for years, then got back into it by buying a car with 400-600 hp.

Wasn't talking about those that have stopped driving at all, if you ever look through the police blotter of a local newspaper the number of problems with unlicensed drivers is amazing. What I was really getting at is how bad we are at regulating users and enforcing those regs.

[climberevan]

^^ Keeping it under 500W is fair I think.

IDK how many of you regularly ride with powermeters, but 500w is an absolute shit-ton of power. As an example the fastest XC guys (actual pros) could likely maintain that for about 5 minutes. They can do 350 or so watts for an hour (obviously it depends on how big they are). As I've said before, adding even a couple hundred wattts is going to result in stupid fast uphill speeds.

If we're trying to maintain trail speeds similar to what bicycles achieve, we really need to talk about keeping mopeds' power output down to 100w or so, IMO. Or, and it would be easy to achieve with the sophisticated tech they come with now, the aggregate of rider and motor could be limited to a total of 300 or something. These are the kinds of measures that could get even crusty old me on board with allowing them on non-motorized trails.

[jm2e]

1hp. That’s what 500w gets you. This is not a 400hp muscle car. It’s an under powered golf cart.


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[Bunion 2020]

Interesting way to look at regulation.

I am more concerned about the disparity in relative speed on multi-use trails rather than anything else other than overcrowding. Overcrowding can be dealt with by developing more trails.

Regulate the E mtn bike speed capabilities (particularly uphill speed) so that they are similar to P mtn bike speeds and a lot of objections go away.

[rod9301]

Interesting way to look at regulation.

I am more concerned about the disparity in relative speed on multi-use trails rather than anything else other than overcrowding. Overcrowding can be dealt with by developing more trails.

Regulate the E mtn bike speed capabilities (particularly uphill speed) so that they are similar to P mtn bike speeds and a lot of objections go away.

It turns out that on my Bosch powered mountain bike i rarely if ever use the max power, as it is hard to control. Maybe on a crazy steep fire road, which either be unclimbable with a regular bike.
Plus the battery would not last very long at all.
So really no reason to worry about people using 500 watts for more than a few seconds.

In emtb, level 3, sure i can go faster than on a regular mtb, but maybe 2mph faster, and in steep rocky single track, not much faster at all, because if you go faster you end up with a very rough ride. Smash into everything.

So imo, the issue of vastly different speeds is a non issue.

Il

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[Quadzilla]

Interesting way to look at regulation.

I am more concerned about the disparity in relative speed on multi-use trails rather than anything else other than overcrowding. Overcrowding can be dealt with by developing more trails.

Regulate the E mtn bike speed capabilities (particularly uphill speed) so that they are similar to P mtn bike speeds and a lot of objections go away.

Way easier to regulate the "powered" speed of a Ebike simply by having legislative mandates that Emtb's power is cut off at a lower speed than 20mph. For me and I ride one I would have no problem if the speed limiter was cut, But, I only ride singletrack never street or fireroads. So power is more of issue to me than speed as I never ride powered up near 20 right now but my passion is riding uphill technical terrain and I want the power to do that on a 50# bike.

[Quadzilla]

As far as who I see riding Emtb, older men and obvious have mtb experience as they like me know the rules of conduct and don't get in trouble. Plus seeing women riding Emtb as now they can ride with their SO's who are one E or pedal bikes and can stay up. Not see fat novices with Walmart helmets creating havoc........

[jono]

It is certainly possible to use 1 hp (which is 746 W) on a light bike, but it's not comparable to a bicycle or what's currently on the market. Changing the regs to something that increases power output significantly without even having a class for lower powered e-bikes will leave bikes built as current "class 1" as orphans. If only one pedal assist class exists local land managers will have to decide whether that class is appropriate for their trails. Not whether your current bike is appropriate, but whether the higher powered ones are appropriate. Redefining class 1 as anything with pedal assist will lead to less trails (and more poaching).

If you ride an e-bike, find out how much power your bike actually delivers at peak output. One that puts out twice as much as a pro rider is certain to be fine in some places, and also too much for others.

[gravitylover]

IDK how many of you regularly ride with power meters, but 500w is an absolute shit-ton of power. As an example the fastest XC guys (actual pros) could likely maintain that for about 5 minutes. They can do 350 or so watts for an hour (obviously it depends on how big they are). As I've said before, adding even a couple hundred watts is going to result in stupid fast uphill speeds.

If we're trying to maintain trail speeds similar to what bicycles achieve, we really need to talk about keeping mopeds' power output down to 100w or so, IMO. Or, and it would be easy to achieve with the sophisticated tech they come with now, the aggregate of rider and motor could be limited to a total of 300 or something. These are the kinds of measures that could get even crusty old me on board with allowing them on non-motorized trails.

You can't realistically harness all of that power on anything less than pavement or smooth(ish) doubletrack, there's no way you could ride the thing on a typical (around here) singletrack. The other thing is it's up to the rider how fast and (un)reasonable they choose to be.

Interesting way to look at regulation.

I am more concerned about the disparity in relative speed on multi-use trails rather than anything else other than overcrowding. Overcrowding can be dealt with by developing more trails.

Regulate the E mtn bike speed capabilities (particularly uphill speed) so that they are similar to P mtn bike speeds and a lot of objections go away.

As said below, I too never find myself riding more than 2-4 mph faster than I would have otherwise, trails just aren't designed for high speed riding and it becomes less fun so why bother. I know that most people don't have the type of restraint or understanding of the situation as I do and a lot of them just want to go fast because they can and I don't know how to regulate that. The 15mph limit they're using in Europe is still too fast as far as discrepancies between trail user speeds so regulating the speed of the bikes is probably a moot point. FWIW most of my climbing is between 4-7mph which isn't likely any higher than most fit riders on acoustic bikes.

It turns out that on my Bosch powered mountain bike i rarely if ever use the max power, as it is hard to control. Maybe on a crazy steep fire road, which either be unclimbable with a regular bike.
Plus the battery would not last very long at all.
So really no reason to worry about people using 500 watts for more than a few seconds.

In emtb, level 3, sure i can go faster than on a regular mtb, but maybe 2mph faster, and in steep rocky single track, not much faster at all, because if you go faster you end up with a very rough ride. Smash into everything.

So imo, the issue of vastly different speeds is a non issue.

[grinch]

Why do people comment if they have no understanding of how they work on trails? Answer: because they think they know and have no problem spewing conclusions from their supposed "knowledge". Why even respond to them if they just try and find any incident to support their false narrative? Atleast go ride one for a couple weeks on varying trails. You can find demos and legal trails to test im sure. The high power and high speed narrative is just bs.

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[jono]

Atleast go ride one for a couple weeks on varying trails. You can find demos and legal trails to test im sure.

Has it already been 2 years since those off us who'd done that were saying exactly the same to you? 3, even? Time flies.

[altasnob]

Canada doesn't have a land designation as restrictive as wilderness designation in the US. In Canada, the city of Banff is inside the National Park. They have backcountry lodges in their national and provincial parks that you can heli into and stay at if you are too lazy to hike. Wilderness in the US means "untrameled by man." This means no bikes, no heli skiing or heli drops, no lodges, no roads, no mining or resource extraction, no motorized anything. You have to hand cut trees that fall across the trail. This is one thing I think the US does better than Canada.

Also, most mountain bike groups, like Evergreen here in Washington, support expansion of wilderness areas in the US. Often, when wilderness expansion is proposed, they consult with mountain bike groups to make sure to avoid ending access to existing trails that are popular with mountain bikes (like the proposed Wild Olympics Widerness here in Washington). In the end, these mountain bike groups value what wilderness offers even though they don't get to ride their bikes, or ebikes there.

[grinch]

Ya well i guess you need more time on one to get past your bias. Your arguement loses all credibility if its based on ignorance, no matter how many other ignorant anti eeb cultists join in your pissing match. It doesn't further any discussion to remain willfully ignorant

For clarity
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/every...-ebike-system/
750w is peak power but the bias of all the uninformed because their bias blinders only allows them to use the 750w number.

All class 1 pedal assist motors and bikes that emtbers are buying are "equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W". Again "250w of continuous rated power"
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.uci...EVUcDk2SEFFPQ2


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[grinch]

Canada doesn't have a land designation as restrictive as wilderness designation in the US. In Canada, the city of Banff is inside the National Park. They have backcountry lodges in their national and provincial parks that you can heli into and stay at if you are too lazy to hike. Wilderness in the US means "untrameled by man." This means no bikes, no heli skiing, no lodges, no roads, no mining or resource extraction, no motorized anything. You have to hand cut trees that fall across the trail. This is one thing I think the US does better than Canada.

Also, most mountain bike groups, like Evergreen here in Washington, support expansion of wilderness areas in the US. Often, when wilderness expansion is proposed, they consult with mountain bike groups to make sure to avoid ending access to existing trails that are popular with mountain bikes (like the proposed Wild Olympics Widerness here in Washington). In the end, these mountain bike groups value what wilderness offers even though they don't get to ride their bikes, or ebikes there.

You can't heli drop anywhere in a canadian national park. Theyre not "backcountry lodges" , they are alpine club of canada huts. Bikes of any kind are extremely regulated and there is certainly no heli skiing. Where do you come up with this bs?

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[grinch]

Only in the ebike threads do you get cementhead type posts en masse. Its like you just spew anything out there off the top of your head because it fits your bias and you know you have a bunch of like minded kooks to back you. Just ridiculous posts. A shit ton of them too.
News flash- emtb is taking over so you better get used to whining or find a "reasonable" approach to the arrival of emtb, and by reasonable it will have to be fair to all citizens and fact based. I predict class1 will have full access and the ignorant will continue whining. I'll update you on your whining level as we go. Tissue?

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[Dee Hubbs]

1hp. That’s what 500w gets you. This is not a 400hp muscle car. It’s an under powered golf cart.

1 HP = 745 W
500 W = 0.67 HP

[altasnob]

Assiniboine Lodge is not ACC. Kokanee may be but is posh. Point being, none of those are allowed in US Wilderness. No huts of any kind. Canada is overall more in favor of non primitive, motorized recreation in their mountains. Look at all the bc huts there compared to the US.