USFS proposed rule to revamp eMTB access (Sept. 2020)

**SkiLyft** · 10-12-2020, 08:45 AM

Ha toast said It — came here to say just because you MTB and eMTB doesn’t mean advocacy efforts can or should be lumped together.

Yeah can we provide disclosers now? I have no conflicts of interested to reveal! Haha!

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**bagtagley** · 10-12-2020, 08:53 AM

This should probably go in the other eeb thread, but that place is scary. I had my first on-trail e-bike encounter this past weekend. The guy had managed the 1/4 mile climb that leads from the lower lot to the upper lot and the main trail head and was standing by his bike trying to catch his breath while also huffing his tobacco vape. He saw me coming and crossed the trail and pretended to be looking at something in the distance. I said hi and he continued to pretend I wasn't there. I got a good chuckle out of it. I know that guy doesn't represent all e-bikers, and being ignored by road bikers isn't all that unusual, but I don't remember ever having an interaction like that with another mountain biker.

**brutah** · 10-12-2020, 08:56 AM

people that think e-biking is the same as pedal biking are the same people that think an ellipitical machine workout is the same as running. the former in both cases are softer workouts no matter what your calorie counter says, your muscles aren't developing the same, your chin and midsection begin to droop, but keep yelling into the wind that its the same.......

**Conundrum** · 10-12-2020, 09:13 AM

Someone, not pointing fingers here, has been tearing down the no e-bikes signs locally. Most of the trails that have the limitation are because they cross private ground through revocable easements. My understanding is the land owners say no motors and our trail managers are being conservative while this is all pretty new.

Those signs must have really offended someone at the risk of loss of access.

**californiagrown** · 10-12-2020, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Conundrum

Someone, not pointing fingers here, has been tearing down the no e-bikes signs locally. Most of the trails that have the limitation are because they cross private ground through revocable easements. My understanding is the land owners say no motors and our trail managers are being conservative while this is all pretty new.

Those signs must have really offended someone at the risk of loss of access.

I dont understand that logic. If you want to get away with something, isnt it FAR better to keep as low of a profile as possible and/or try to ingratiate yourself to the majority opposition? Ride during off hours, stick to seldom used trails/fire roads where it makes sense, be as courteous as possible, etc.

**bendtheski** · 10-12-2020, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by brutah

people that think mopeds are the same as bicycles are the same people that think an ellipitical machine workout is the same as running. the former in both cases are softer workouts no matter what your calorie counter says, your muscles aren't developing the same, your chin and midsection begin to droop, but keep yelling into the wind that its the same.......

FIFY

**altasnob** · 10-12-2020, 09:40 AM

The person ripping down the signs is probably clueless as to why the signs are posted. To legally allow ebikes on these trails someone will have to contact every single landowner who has graciously allowed the public to cross their land and convince them that they should also allow ebikes to cross their land. I don't blame land managers from not wanting to do this. What if the landowner says screw everyone, and ends all access. Demonstrates the complexity of this situation.

**toast2266** · 10-12-2020, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by altasnob

The person ripping down the signs is probably clueless as to why the signs are posted. To legally allow ebikes on these trails someone will have to contact every single landowner who has graciously allowed the public to cross their land and convince them that they should also allow ebikes to cross their land. I don't blame land managers from not wanting to do this. What if the landowner says screw everyone, and ends all access. Demonstrates the complexity of this situation.

No, haven't you heard? It's simple, because Europe.

**evasive_MT** · 10-12-2020, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by toast2266

The fact that there is overlap in the ridership does not mean they're the same group. Lots of guys that ride mountain bikes also ride dirt bikes, but they're not the same group either (even though the interests of those two groups often overlap).

Doesn't mean people can't advocate for mountain bikes and ebikes simultaneously, but I haven't seen that kind of advocacy happening in most places. What's mostly happening is people advocating for mountain bikes, and then the ebikers come in and talk about how they're entitled to that access. Most of the mountain bike advocates I know (the ones that are actually doing the work on the ground, not just bitching on the internet) are not advocating for ebike access. They're generally not opposed to the idea of ebikes, but they're not excited about the complications to access that ebikes bring, and therefore they're not advocating for them.

*edit - and I don't know about the ebike app because I don't really ever ride that bike. It's in the garage and I have access to it, but it's not as fun as a mountain bike. I've maybe ridden it 5 times this year. If I need some app on my phone to appreciate the bike, then yeah, maybe that's why ebikes aren't for me.

Very much this.

**jacob_dbu** · 10-12-2020, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by altasnob

The person ripping down the signs is probably clueless as to why the signs are posted. To legally allow ebikes on these trails someone will have to contact every single landowner who has graciously allowed the public to cross their land and convince them that they should also allow ebikes to cross their land. I don't blame land managers from not wanting to do this. What if the landowner says screw everyone, and ends all access. Demonstrates the complexity of this situation.

Ripping down the signs only demonstrates stupidity. They'd be better off just riding their e-bike and keeping a low profile. Doubt anyone will give them shit for it as long as they are respectful. If a landowner who gave the easement complains then the land manager can clamp down harder. Yet I doubt most landowners would care about an e-bike that's not making any noise. They probably wouldn't even know.

e-bikes "poach" trails they're not supposed to ride all the time. I honestly don't give a shit if they're not acting like a dick.

**altasnob** · 10-12-2020, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by thejongiest

I doubt most landowners would care about an e-bike that's not making any noise. They probably wouldn't even know.

Just because most landowners probably won't give two shits doesn't mean all feel that way. And I bet the landowners would be even more pissed if they found out ebikes were on their property and no one bothered to tell them about this. I imagine the reason the trail is allowed to cross the private land is way back in time some mtb activist met with the land owner and explained on how low impact a mountain bike would have crossing their land, and that mountain bikes are totally different than dirt bikes in terms of erosion, noise, and likelihood of liability. The land owner bought the pitch and gave the ok to build the trail across their land. I could see some landowners being pretty pissed to find out that now, bikes with motors are going across their land.

**jacob_dbu** · 10-12-2020, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by altasnob

Just because most landowners probably won't give two shits doesn't mean all feel that way. And I bet the landowners would be even more pissed if they found out ebikes were on their property and no one bothered to tell them about this. I imagine the reason the trail is allowed to cross the private land is way back in time some mtb activist met with the land owner and explained on how low impact a mountain bike would have crossing their land, and that mountain bikes are totally different than dirt bikes in terms of erosion, noise, and likelihood of liability. The land owner bought the pitch and gave the ok to build the trail across their land. I could see some landowners being pretty pissed to find out that now, bikes with motors are going across their land.

I'm not arguing that e-bikes should be allowed or that all landowners won't be pissed. I'm just saying change is iterative and to me the e-bike phenoma reminds me of marijuana and how in some places it's technically illegal but tolerated...until it isn't.

**grinch** · 10-12-2020, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

Assume much? Bought my 1st mtn bike in 1984 but that is immaterial to the discussion, how long anyone has been doing anything is a smokescreen for your butthurt.

Quick question and then you can carry on carrying on.

Do you sell e-bikes or have some reason for your evangelical zeal beyond just wanting to be treated (as you see it) equally?

Thank you in advance.

He started the dick swinging suggesting he's the big trail builder and anyone riding an emtb does no trail work like theyre a different group.
I have no connection to the emtb industry apart from owning one. Its just short sighted cowardice to dig up all these excuses and try to find narratives to allow you to throw emtb's under the bus in your pursuit of advocacy. It does you no good in the advocacy fight, hence the cowardice. The short sighted part is the non acceptance that the added offroad cycling numbers wont make a net gain in advocacy. Your little letters to the usfs are a just a drop in the bucket. Gains in mtb advocacy is most often the result of money and people in power. Its gained from the constituency support in that local, state and federal policy makers now ride bikes and/or the people in power now ride bikes. As more people continue to ride emtb that means more people in positiins of power ride emtb. That trend has no border and has been happening with greater effect. Land managers hiked or where on horseback in the past. Now more are on bikes. If you want to get more of the decision makers on bikes it makes sense that the emtb will excellerate that

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**grinch** · 10-12-2020, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by jono

He's actually sponsored by the Sierra Club's Mickey V soon-to-be Memorial scholarship. Sent here to sow dissent and be counterproductive to his alleged cause. Brilliant psy-op on their part, actually. DD would be proud.

Retro grouch short sighted coward mtbers are the ones putting up barriers bruh

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**grinch** · 10-12-2020, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by toast2266

The fact that there is overlap in the ridership does not mean they're the same group. Lots of guys that ride mountain bikes also ride dirt bikes, but they're not the same group either (even though the interests of those two groups often overlap).

Doesn't mean people can't advocate for mountain bikes and ebikes simultaneously, but I haven't seen that kind of advocacy happening in most places. What's mostly happening is people advocating for mountain bikes, and then the ebikers come in and talk about how they're entitled to that access. Most of the mountain bike advocates I know (the ones that are actually doing the work on the ground, not just bitching on the internet) are not advocating for ebike access. They're generally not opposed to the idea of ebikes, but they're not excited about the complications to access that ebikes bring, and therefore they're not advocating for them.

*edit - and I don't know about the ebike app because I don't really ever ride that bike. It's in the garage and I have access to it, but it's not as fun as a mountain bike. I've maybe ridden it 5 times this year. If I need some app on my phone to appreciate the bike, then yeah, maybe that's why ebikes aren't for me.

What are emtbers supposed to do? Build an emtb right beside the mtb trail? That'd be a stupid waste of land and resources.
Wait i thought you said you were "good at ebiking" and you knew all about thdm and they were this and that? You've ridden it 5 days! Haaaaa . Biased much? Impartiality is something i respect in journalism. Do you?

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**grinch** · 10-12-2020, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by SkiLyft

Ha toast said It — came here to say just because you MTB and eMTB doesn’t mean advocacy efforts can or should be lumped together.

Yeah can we provide disclosers now? I have no conflicts of interested to reveal! Haha!

Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Youre just butthurt. Youve brought nothing to the discussion apart from your butthurt. More reading, less posting bruh
And bootlicking. Less bootlicking umm K

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**grinch** · 10-12-2020, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by bagtagley

This should probably go in the other eeb thread, but that place is scary. I had my first on-trail e-bike encounter this past weekend. The guy had managed the 1/4 mile climb that leads from the lower lot to the upper lot and the main trail head and was standing by his bike trying to catch his breath while also huffing his tobacco vape. He saw me coming and crossed the trail and pretended to be looking at something in the distance. I said hi and he continued to pretend I wasn't there. I got a good chuckle out of it. I know that guy doesn't represent all e-bikers, and being ignored by road bikers isn't all that unusual, but I don't remember ever having an interaction like that with another mountain biker.

So what. The guy is getting out there and trying to make a positive change in himself. What a condescending post. Check yourself bro

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**grinch** · 10-12-2020, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by brutah

people that think e-biking is the same as pedal biking are the same people that think an ellipitical machine workout is the same as running. the former in both cases are softer workouts no matter what your calorie counter says, your muscles aren't developing the same, your chin and midsection begin to droop, but keep yelling into the wind that its the same.......

Youre soo core bro!! Theres a huge difference in peoples idea of what mtb is. Some only want to climb and not ride tech, some want to just cruise the mellow trails, hike a bikers, shuttlers, enduro etc etc etc. Emtb fits squarely in the middle of that. It probably covers more of that than most mtbers. Ignorant post is ignorant

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**bendtheski** · 10-12-2020, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by grinch

What are emtbers supposed to do?

Stick to trails designated for motorized vehicles? Oh, but then you'd have to acknowledge you're riding a 6k moped.

**grinch** · 10-12-2020, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by bendtheski

FIFY

Your fify says more about you than anything else. #tinypen

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**bendtheski** · 10-12-2020, 01:59 PM

Your false equivalencies about your moped access says everything.

**toast2266** · 10-12-2020, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by grinch

What are emtbers supposed to do? Build an emtb right beside the mtb trail? That'd be a stupid waste of land and resources.

They're supposed to organize and advocate for themselves rather than just piggy backing off another group's work and acting like they're entitled to everything they want.

Like I've said before, I have no problem with ebikes, and I wouldn't oppose their efforts to gain access. But I'm not going to do the heavy lifting for them, especially because doing that would jeopardize / complicate my efforts for mountain bikes.

Originally Posted by grinch

Wait i thought you said you were "good at ebiking" and you knew all about thdm and they were this and that? You've ridden it 5 days! Haaaaa . Biased much? Impartiality is something i respect in journalism. Do you?

Being good at ebiking requires using an app? Shit. I guess I'm an e-Joey then. I thought I was doing ok since I'm not barfing up a lung every time I do an e-climb. But apparently I'm missing something - maybe if I use the app, I'd get a better workout?

**bagtagley** · 10-12-2020, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by grinch

So what. The guy is getting out there and trying to make a positive change in himself. What a condescending post. Check yourself bro

Cmon, that's pretty funny. I had been reading this insane thread that same morning, then had that as my first IRL eeb interaction. Even you would have laughed.

**grskier** · 10-12-2020, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by bagtagley

Cmon, that's pretty funny. I had been reading this insane thread that same morning, then had that as my first IRL eeb interaction. Even you would have laughed.

There you go again making GRAND assumptions...

I wish there was a sarcasm font.

In the interest of n+1 I want an ebike to go hit the local moto trails. They are usually empty, a ton of fun, but just a little too steep on the up when you add in some of the moto bumps.