USFS proposed rule to revamp eMTB access (Sept. 2020)

**grinch** · 10-08-2020, 12:56 PM

Riding almost everyday. Did my research rather than go with hearsay. I guess i have trolled but only after nonsensical responses to the actual facts i shared. Its a discussion forum. Post something ridiculous you'll get called out. I've only stated truth about emtb's. I didn't partake in the dick waving that some resort to after they realize their statements don't make sense or their statements only serve themselves.
The trail infastructure is huge these days. The bikes are dialed. It'd be great if everyone stopped riding and i had it all to my self like the old days . Its not going to happen. Gov't gave you the key though with making class 1 equal to Pbike so use the numbers , gain more access and more trails. It seems the only thing limiting you is you.

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**Bunion 2020** · 10-08-2020, 03:50 PM

^^^^ And for the 2nd time we have a Hugh Conway award winner.

**grinch** · 10-08-2020, 04:22 PM

Attack the messsenger not the message. #notbunion2024

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**SkiLyft** · 10-08-2020, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by grinch

Well lets see actual stats. Any day you go to a bike park you hear at lwast one ambulance. At whistler, because of the size, you have several people carted off throughout the day. Take an equal amount of trail riders on mtb's and the injury rate would pale in comparison to a bike park. Thats not shocking to anyone first responder or not. There's bound to be a small bump in incidents with an ebike but that wouln't compare to a bike park. ftr im not speaking against bike parks. Just an example. Lots of quad injuries, skiing, , motoX, , football etc etc etc. Emtb injuries are hardly remarkable. Are you advocating banning emtb based on injuries? If so , i can see where the bias lies

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Stats ahh stats, I am not advocating for banning anything... your tone is so polarized. It does not have to be 2 ways all we are saying is that maybe we should stop and consider the consequences of an action before changing it.

In this case we are looking at how ebikes are marketed... largely the bike industry sees this as a way to sell more bikes and appeal to those who are not fit and have little to no bike skills. Thus logically it’s easy to extrapolate that there will be more serious injuries as these riders have no clue how to navigate trails and traffic on a bike, which was designed to move faster than an average pbike!

Your comment about bike parks is a bit shallow... as older “deconditioned” riders generally are not drawn to bike parks because they are not marketed as such and seen as dangerous. This is completely different to how ebikes are being marketed! The are marketed as a gateway to mountain biking thus attracting uneducated riders!

Anyways I found a couple studies this one was particularly interesting.

https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/con...19-043418.full

In summary
Ebikes have a higher propensity for serious injury — 17% of e-bike accident victims suffered internal injuries be 7.5% of pedal bikes

Ebikes are appealing to older people — People injured on ebikes were older (31.9 vs 25.2 pbike)

I am not anti ebike, and I will definitely buy one in the future but for now I’m hooked on my pbike too much!

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**Bunion 2020** · 10-08-2020, 04:43 PM

Attack the messsenger not the message. #notbunion2024

If you say so.

Did my research rather than go with hearsay. I guess i have trolled but only after nonsensical responses to the actual facts i shared.

no you have posted your viewpoints, AKA opinion.

Its a discussion forum. Post something ridiculous you'll get called out. I've only stated truth about emtb's. I didn't partake in the dick waving that some resort to after they realize their statements don't make sense or their statements only serve themselves.

again, your opinion.

The trail infastructure is huge these days. The bikes are dialed. It'd be great if everyone stopped riding and i had it all to my self like the old days . Its not going to happen. Gov't gave you the key though with making class 1 equal to Pbike so use the numbers , gain more access and more trails. It seems the only thing limiting you is you.

Where I live the trail infrastructure is NOT huge, (BTW what is "huge"), and getting new trails green lit is a battle, see the Scratchgravel thread, the number of multi use trails open to bikes has been steadily decreasing for the past 10-15 years, there are no bike only trails including at the local ski areas and that "fact" has been pointed out to you time and again, you see things from where you live, that is not how it is everywhere else.

**joetron** · 10-08-2020, 07:24 PM

But dude, he has stated multiple times that more riders means more trails, so it’s gotta be a fact. Trails don’t get more crowded, they just grow because every new bike rider donates to their local advocacy group and relentlessly lobbies their local managers to build more trails. And they get built and they’re all awesome. It’s so easy, I’m now a believer. I can’t believe I was so daft.

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**climberevan** · 10-08-2020, 07:51 PM

I want to live in this magical place where trail miles expand to accommodate all users!

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**grinch** · 10-08-2020, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by SkiLyft

Stats ahh stats, I am not advocating for banning anything... your tone is so polarized. It does not have to be 2 ways all we are saying is that maybe we should stop and consider the consequences of an action before changing it.

In this case we are looking at how ebikes are marketed... largely the bike industry sees this as a way to sell more bikes and appeal to those who are not fit and have little to no bike skills. Thus logically it’s easy to extrapolate that there will be more serious injuries as these riders have no clue how to navigate trails and traffic on a bike, which was designed to move faster than an average pbike!

Your comment about bike parks is a bit shallow... as older “deconditioned” riders generally are not drawn to bike parks because they are not marketed as such and seen as dangerous. This is completely different to how ebikes are being marketed! The are marketed as a gateway to mountain biking thus attracting uneducated riders!

Anyways I found a couple studies this one was particularly interesting.

https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/con...19-043418.full

In summary
Ebikes have a higher propensity for serious injury — 17% of e-bike accident victims suffered internal injuries be 7.5% of pedal bikes

Ebikes are appealing to older people — People injured on ebikes were older (31.9 vs 25.2 pbike)

I am not anti ebike, and I will definitely buy one in the future but for now I’m hooked on my pbike too much!

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Holy shit! That link is not talking about offroad emtb use. It stands to reason if your going faster your injury will be worse. Hardly rocket science. If it was emtb on dirt you could subtract the majority of that % level difference because you've got your shit together more before you drop into the dh. Also that injury rate should be guaged by the amount of vertical. Its injury percentage rate over x amount of vertical . So you would be safer with an emtb apart from pedestrian impacts and i saw zero pedestrians today. Imagine that, on an mtb trail? Who'd a thunk. The article talks about pedestrian impacts mostly and i imagine commuter speeds. Niether have anything yo do with offroad mtb/emtb.
Who said we were talking about how ebikes are marketed? The thread is in redponce to the usfs .
Of course the bike industry is trying to sell stuff. Maybe you missed the in-dus-treeee part.
Yes emtb has a wider audience but who says they market them largely to "those who are not fit and have little to no bike skills." ? The market is split pretty even between older, x moto, mtb, and newbs and the youth. Plenty of skill in there.
Then you try and make a definitive conclusion that "there will be more serious injuries as these riders have no clue how to navigate trails and traffic on a bike, which was designed to move faster than an average pbike! " based on a link that isnt talking about emtb, and the thread and usfs are talking about emtb. Ebike is a general term that encompasses the emtb category but usfs and this thread is the subsection of ebike known as emtb , and more in particular class1 emtb. I thiught we were past this stage of the ebike doscussion and differentiating was unnecessary and we knew the actual topic? I guess not.
Then you discount my bike park comparison as not related. Its offroad emtb like the thread and usfs is talking about. "Deconditioned riders" wtf is that? Maybe you mean commuters ln "ebikes" going faster than their skill and smashing into pedestrias, which again has nothing to do with the conversation, although still hardly registering as significant but of course "notewirthy".
All based of your bullshit link. Son , here's znother pro tip, you should read more and post less

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**grinch** · 10-08-2020, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Bunion 2020

If you say so.

no you have posted your viewpoints, AKA opinion.

again, your opinion.

Where I live the trail infrastructure is NOT huge, (BTW what is "huge"), and getting new trails green lit is a battle, see the Scratchgravel thread, the number of multi use trails open to bikes has been steadily decreasing for the past 10-15 years, there are no bike only trails including at the local ski areas and that "fact" has been pointed out to you time and again, you see things from where you live, that is not how it is everywhere else.

One reply for all yours should suffice.
It's not my fault that you're slow on the uptake and unable to figure shit out after i explain shit to you numerous times

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**grinch** · 10-08-2020, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by joetron

But dude, he has stated multiple times that more riders means more trails, so it’s gotta be a fact. Trails don’t get more crowded, they just grow because every new bike rider donates to their local advocacy group and relentlessly lobbies their local managers to build more trails. And they get built and they’re all awesome. It’s so easy, I’m now a believer. I can’t believe I was so daft.

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Lots of slow on the uptake today. I'll expand it for the "special" amongst us.
World wide, america wide, every nation wide from the start of mtb until the present , "on average",more riders has equated to more trails, more advocacy, and here's the expansion for the xtra "special" sloooow on the uptake amongst us, and more people involved in building and more $ from local business and gov't.
Just as trailbuilding mtbers numbers has grown trailbuilding emtbers has grown. Because of their easier access with tools and the expanding use of emtb's by trailbuilders we will get more trails. That huge downieville system they developed because of and with the use of emtbs is a prime example.
Again , this is mtb 101 level shit.

Overall of my 3 replies my conclusion is we need some smarter snowflakes. This shit is getting boring. Somebody bench these 4th line hacks. I'm disapoint, just extremely disapointed in the poor responses. M bare ass ing

Also, watch your tone joephonic !!

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**grinch** · 10-08-2020, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by climberevan

I want to live in this magical place where trail miles expand to accommodate all users!

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Well thats whats happened. The infastructure network hasn't shrunk in any country. I can't help where people choose to live in a country

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**grinch** · 10-08-2020, 08:51 PM

Fuck, i just rattle these off as i see them. 2 ez . Grade school level comments to reply too. Do i have to wait like 12 or 14 hrs till you can make up some more bs? Shit is weak

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**toast2266** · 10-08-2020, 08:55 PM

Pretty sure grinch went to the trump school of debating. Didn't think they normally let canadians in to that. I guess they need the cash?

**grinch** · 10-08-2020, 09:17 PM

Hey, the snarc tone was set. I can play.
You get that heart rate blevo on the go yet? Or you avoiding the stats?

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**joetron** · 10-08-2020, 09:17 PM

Oh, there’s more riders AND more trails than there were 25 years ago? Wow. Good to know you’re breathing.It’s just with your mouth, but hey at least you’re getting some O2.
Anyhow, take some deep breaths, you might have to think about this one...
Has the growth in riders and the capabilities of bikes, both acoustic and electric, been proportionately matched by the growth in trails? Or have more bland, smooth, stacked trails close to population centers been built compared to the rad gnarly shit out in the woods that all mountain bikers like to romanticize? Based on my experience as a advocacy board member in UT and CO from 2009-2018 I’m gonna say that there has been more growth in rider population and rider capability than there has been miles (those are like kilometers) built of good trail or any trail at all.
IMBA has had an explicit focus in building urban interface trails that are largely rated green and blue. And despite the efforts to build more trails, if you ask just about anybody that doesn’t live in BFE BC, trails are more crowded now than they were 5 or 10 years ago.
Trails don’t magically get built when more people start riding, unless those people get involved, and based on my experience in advocacy, that simply doesn’t happen in the proportions that you are pontificating about.
Also, e-bikes are fucking expensive...your hypothesis that the youth are all gonna get e-bikes is delusional. Have you seen what most groms’ bikes look like? Have you ever talked to a normal 19yo about repairs on their hammered bike?
The old fucks that are driving the USA emtb market have no desire to ride good shit...they don’t even consider good trails when they buy their $8000 Levo, they just assume the trails already exist and just poach, either consciously or unconsciously...empowered by their sense of entitlement. Some of us see that as a problem, you see it as an opportunity.

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**SkiLyft** · 10-08-2020, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by toast2266

Pretty sure grinch went to the trump school of debating. Didn't think they normally let canadians in to that. I guess they need the cash?

Haha I think so!!

Originally Posted by grinch

Son , here's znother pro tip, you should read more and post less

First of all, I am not claiming to be an expert on this topic — I am genuinely curious about the topic and would love to read more!! On a related note, I have yet to see you post any study which substantiates your claims so please post them! Until then please refrain from calling your opinions facts... there is a difference there!

While digging deeper I found this white page article prepared for “peopleforbikes” so take it with a grain of salt because they do have a clear interest in proving that ebikes are safe! They did try to narrow to eMTB and even used type 1, type 2, and type 3 designations!

https://wsd-pfb-sparkinfluence.s3.am...ety-VFinal.pdf

Anyways they go on to say this in their conclusions; “Despite some evidence of higher hospitalization and injury rates, the average injury severity is about the same as cyclists’ injury (Schepers, Fishman et al. 2014, Weber, Scaramuzza et al. 2014, Haustein and Møller 2016)”.

But there does seem to be a pretty big void in the literature as to the true relative risks of ebikes and their impacts on trail systems. Again Grinch, please post up what you are referring to as facts as I would like to edu-micate myself in the topic from its source vs what you are typing on here...

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**toast2266** · 10-08-2020, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by grinch

You get that heart rate blevo on the go yet? Or you avoiding the stats?

My (wife's) levo doesn't have any of that gadgetry. There's no screen. All it has is a ten bar battery indicator on the top tube.

But it's not like it's close. I climb for an hour on the pedal bike and I'm frequently redlined and feel like I'm dieing (in a good way). I climb for an hour on the ebike and I'm barely breaking a sweat. I've stopped bothering to bring much water on ebike rides because I don't really feel the need to drink it.

**grinch** · 10-08-2020, 10:05 PM

You dont need to spend a ton. You have assist so spending big $ on gouch parts is unnecessary. Steel cheap cassette is a quarter of the price of xtr. Of course you'll do more vert and have to buy 2 cheap cassettes but ur still at half price and you've done twice the vert. No need for carbon parts or light weight der, and shifter , pedals, saddle, post. I could go buy a barely used rental levo ,cheaper than my meta , right now and it has a 4 year warrantee on the drive unit. A lot of bang for the buck after 4 years of throwing some deore replacement parts on it
Ive got numerous reports of dad's having their ears talked off by their kids that are reading up on emtb. Kids want tech shit. I was surprised last week by a buddy that i was doing laps with the last few weekends. He visits town and camps at a friends. He said the kid talked his ear off about emtb. My buddy doesnt care either way. But he was surprised of all the shit the kid rattled off. He goes to a summer bike camp type thing for a week on p bikes with a local pro and all the kids talk about is bikes and they want emtb.
There's some good deals out there. A few i know of are in developement. Inexpensive being the main goal. Its sounding sweet though. Under 4k , mullet , 150/160, yari fork, full carbon frame, deore 4 piston brakes , baofeng motor(i think its 85nm). Reputable factory with one month production time. Theyre shooting for a january release.
Decathalon emtb has a sub 4k bike with a similar spec and a bosch cx gen 4 drive unit. Pre covid commencal had fs emtb's for 4k cad on black friday. Plenty out there.

This in the other thread but it needs to be here

Good dood.

Whistler has a fleet of heckler emtbs for trail building. Hear in town theres talk of that probably beacause of worca.
In this day andcage we have so much quality trail and its all started and developed because of added participation. We've got it good. When there was no one, we road quad trails or hiking trails or jeep roads. Hiking trails can be fun but a lot are uneventful. The progression in trailbuilding is a result of added participation. Full stop.
I like any kind of trail. It just makes more sense to leave the flow/jump trails to bike parks that have continuous revenue to maintain that product. Its too costly to maintain that kind of trail by an association, or atleast too much of that kind of trail. I don't want to say none of that outside the bike parks as i just got back from a walk through our new rebuilt jump trail and its incredible. Speed looks like itll work to perfection. Crazy improvement the contractor did. Ended with an hour bushwack so i didnt go through a "do not enter" work zone at the finish. Walk mode and myself got a workout up through steep bush

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**rod9301** · 10-08-2020, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by climberevan

I want to live in this magical place where trail miles expand to accommodate all users!

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It's called Tahoe

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**grinch** · 10-08-2020, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by toast2266

My (wife's) levo doesn't have any of that gadgetry. There's no screen. All it has is a ten bar battery indicator on the top tube.

But it's not like it's close. I climb for an hour on the pedal bike and I'm frequently redlined and feel like I'm dieing (in a good way). I climb for an hour on the ebike and I'm barely breaking a sweat. I've stopped bothering to bring much water on ebike rides because I don't really feel the need to drink it.

The ez way to know youre at endurance pace without a hr monitor is you have a light sweat and able to carry a conversation.
You put the "blevo" app on your phone and you can mount it on your tt or stem. It shows everything your motor is doing, %of battery remaining , heart rate etc etc etc. It even allows you to set your bike to keep a target heart rate continuously. It adds assist if your hr goes above a set point or lessens assist if it goes below your set low heart rate.. I havent used it but apparently its ez as to set up and use.
Buddy has all the shit and more on his "kiox" display on his bosch equipped bike. He has komoot app on his phone and yhe kiox. Like trailforks. Has a map of the trail anfd gives him his distance, average speed, calories burned etc etc. Im surprised. He's not a tech guy. I want one. Pretty slick . Im bare bones, mainly because its a pita pulling my phone out.

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**grinch** · 10-08-2020, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by SkiLyft

Haha I think so!!

First of all, I am not claiming to be an expert on this topic — I am genuinely curious about the topic and would love to read more!! On a related note, I have yet to see you post any study which substantiates your claims so please post them! Until then please refrain from calling your opinions facts... there is a difference there!

While digging deeper I found this white page article prepared for “peopleforbikes” so take it with a grain of salt because they do have a clear interest in proving that ebikes are safe! They did try to narrow to eMTB and even used type 1, type 2, and type 3 designations!

https://wsd-pfb-sparkinfluence.s3.am...ety-VFinal.pdf

Anyways they go on to say this in their conclusions; “Despite some evidence of higher hospitalization and injury rates, the average injury severity is about the same as cyclists’ injury (Schepers, Fishman et al. 2014, Weber, Scaramuzza et al. 2014, Haustein and Møller 2016)”.

But there does seem to be a pretty big void in the literature as to the true relative risks of ebikes and their impacts on trail systems. Again Grinch, please post up what you are referring to as facts as I would like to edu-micate myself in the topic from its source vs what you are typing on here...

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My facts come from my personal experience and being immersed in emtb culture. Theyre all points commonly shared by eebers and i've experienced the same commonly shared points. I understand how they work and have almost 40 years of being an mtb bike bum to compare my findings between mtb and emtb.
Like you said, its you that lacks the knowledge. I know how they work. You can just believe me or look it up yourself. I'd suggest more prudent links though or im going to point at you and laugh again. Id suggest looking at germanys stats. Germanty has money to spend on studies of studies studying studies. Im sure they have a percentage for every possibility to the thousandth percentile , because german engineered. Plus they're probably the most developed emtb community and have the highest ratio of emtb to mtb. Good luck. Make sure your little linkies are emtb please. Im developing carpal tunnel in my thumb from typing terse responses

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**gravitylover** · 10-09-2020, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by grinch

You dont need to spend a ton. You have assist so spending big $ on gouch parts is unnecessary. Steel cheap cassette is a quarter of the price of xtr. Of course you'll do more vert and have to buy 2 cheap cassettes but ur still at half price and you've done twice the vert. No need for carbon parts or light weight der, and shifter , pedals, saddle, post. I could go buy a barely used rental levo ,cheaper than my meta , right now and it has a 4 year warrantee on the drive unit. A lot of bang for the buck after 4 years of throwing some deore replacement parts on it

The only parts that need to be top level are suspension bits, wheels and brakes. Anything less than a 4 piston brake will be insufficient, wheels that can't take an all out pounding are a waste of time and the fork better be burly too. Whether you're an experienced rider or not is meaningless, the potential for e-'s to be ridden hard is huge and even the newbies are overriding the mid to low end parts. Drivetrain parts on the other hand can definitely be lower end, steel cassettes are necessary, 8 or 9 speeds is all you really want because you need those thicker cogs and chains and you definitely don't want multi shift shifters or you'll be snapping chains like kindling. Deore, EX or the Box 2 e- group are great and so much more affordable that even the great e-mtb's should be able to stay at $4k or under soon. Even though I sell some crazy expensive ones I'm not entirely sold on how long that part of the market will last when people realize this.

**californiagrown** · 10-09-2020, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by rod9301

It's called Tahoe

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And Washington.

And Arkansas.

And numerous other places. I certainly do not want to live in the non-magical place that climberevan does haha.

**climberevan** · 10-09-2020, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by rod9301

It's called Tahoe

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Is this a joke? You know I live 8 miles from the Tahoe Rim Trail and can get there on singletrack from my house, right? While new trails have been built in the 12 years I've been here, the increase in use has far, far outstripped the increase in trail miles. For example, Big Meadow trailhead was never full at 0700 on weekdays 10 years ago--shit, it was hardly ever full on weekends.

While overall my experience in this thread has improved dramatically by putting Sean on ignore, I do sometimes click on the spoilers. I noticed that he attributed Downieville's trail network to e-mopeds. HAHA! It's just a guess, but Grinch most likely hasn't been to the Lost Sierra. The miners (mostly) and motorcyclists who built those trails would like a word. That trail network has been in existence longer than lithium batteries.

Downieville is one of the few large networks of motorized trails that is also popular with pedalers, but that's solely due to the daily shuttles that allow people to do the Butcher trail without the huge climb from town. If the shuttles weren't there I suspect the that trail would be as deserted as the rest of them. E-mopeds would be great there, and no one here is advocating otherwise.

For like the hundredth time, we just want people to stop poaching. Send your comments to the USFS and try to convince them of your position.

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**Quadzilla** · 10-09-2020, 08:47 AM

Yeah, first this is a Emtb discussion, not Ebike. So if one is using stats separate street Ebike and MTB Ebike. I think looking at the various ads on FB and other forms of media the pitch is street and not dirt. Emtb and pedal mtb are judgement sports like maybe Kite surfing, dirt bikes and the like. Good judgement and staying within safety margins will keep you and others pretty safe. Playing outside the margins and you will get hurt or killed. Street biking is IMO dangerous as you are counting on a car to do the right thing. Adding Ebikes and greater speed will add to the danger.

Riding my Ebike near the flanks of Tahoe and TRT today. Stealthy, no one will even pay attention ..............