Bindings to Maximize Safety & Adjustability?

[topher23]

Howdy Folks,

I am a 27 y.o., 6'2", 210lb advanced (but certainly not expert) skiier. I am not hucking backflips; more of a tree skiier. Will do a 5ft drop every once in a while.

Retiring my 2013 High Society FR's with Marker Griffon bindings. Replacing em with a pair of new-to-me 19/20 Moment PB&J's and I am curious about some binding combinations for them. The only other ski in my quiver is a 19/20 Bent Chetler 120 with Shift binding. My boots are Lange XT Free 130 LV.

I am looking for a binding that maximizes the following two factors:

• Safety -> I am coming off an ACL full tear, MCL grade 2 tear, and minor meniscus tear. I want these bindings to really excel in popping out when knee injury/strain is probable.
• Adjustability -> The PBJ's I have already have 2 mounts em so I would like this to be the last. I also would like the flexibility to change boots if required and possibly play with the mount point a bit.

What I dont really care about: stack height, added weight, 'cool look', price, insanely high din, ease of snapping in.

Right now I am considering:

• Knee Binding Carbon 14 -> Many mixed reviews across the internet. Seems that they do protect the ACL as promised but at the cost of a few more prereleases. Perhaps I just dont charge hard enough but I have never really had issues with my Griffons prereleasing. Only sub-prime releases were 2x on the Baldy Chutes at Snowbird last winter.
• Look Pivot 14 -> The folks at Moment recc'd these. Their direct quote to me was "Look Pivot 12's or 14's. Really though anything but Marker". From my readings online, the they are top tier for reliability and safety but fall flat on adjustability. The stated adjustability is 20mm but what I have read concludes it is closer to 12mm max.
• Tyrolia AAAttack2 14 AT -> Very large stated adjustability range at 32mm.
• Salomon STH2 WTR 13 -> Kinda the 'great' at both areas I am looking at but not 'best' in any of them. Many people I personally know love these.

Looking for the mag recommendation. What's the beta? What am I ignoring? Should I consider a demo binding for maximum adjustability? Thanks for the input.

[m2711c]

get the red ones.

[gregL]

• Safety -> I am coming off an ACL full tear, MCL grade 2 tear, and minor meniscus tear. I want these bindings to really excel in popping out when knee injury/strain is probable.
• Adjustability -> The PBJ's I have already have 2 mounts em so I would like this to be the last. I also would like the flexibility to change boots if required and possibly play with the mount point a bit.

They are all "safe" within the definition set by ISO/DIN, including Markers. The prevailing anti-Marker sentiment at TGR (and apparently Moment) derives from products that were in use before you were born, as well as recent Royal Family bindings (mostly due to difficulty in stepping in and subsequent falls due to people not realizing the heel was not engaged). 2020-2021 Royal Family bindings (Squire, Griffon, Jester) have fixed this issue. Marker race bindings and TCX heels have been fine all along.

I haven't personally used the KNEE binding, but I'm not sure I"m willing to trade better backseat loaded release for a greater chance of injury to my head, neck or shoulders from other unwanted release. FWIW, I'm coming off the same injury as you with a full Patellar tendon autograft repair and 2 meniscus trims (MCL fortunately heeled itself). Last season I turned my DIN's down by 1, unsure if I will ever crank them back up.

Why exactly do you need such a large adjustment range?

If you indeed have two boots with such a large BSL discrepancy, one is almost certainly the wrong size. You can't really experiment with mount point by just moving the heel anyway, you need to move the toe. All except the Pivot have around 28-30mm of total adjustment at the heel; not sure I believe some of the recent claims on Pivot adjustability but I would say "maybe" 5-6mm each way, depending on how the jig was set up.

PS The XT Free LV shipped with an alpine ISO 5355 sole, you don't need the Attack 14 AT (regular Attack 13 will do).

[rod9301]

Keep in mind the bindings protect you from bone breakage, not ligament tears.

Knee binding might be different, but do you want to risk pre releases?

Plus it's really unproven.

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[galibier_numero_un]

Listen to @gregL and @rod9301. The anecdotal reports of the Knee binders' ejectomatic feature is not loved around here, and not just by the burley ones who slay the gnar.

...Thom

[galibier_numero_un]

Listen to @gregL and @rod9301. The anecdotal reports of the Knee binders' ejectomatic feature is not loved around here, and not just by the burley ones who slay the gnar. Look, Solly & Tyrolia are all great.

...Thom

[topher23]

Thanks for the reply GregL and rod9301.

Knee binding might be different, but do you want to risk pre releases?

Plus it's really unproven.

I haven't personally used the KNEE binding, but I'm not sure I"m willing to trade better backseat loaded release for a greater chance of injury to my head, neck or shoulders from other unwanted release.

It's unclear to me if prerelease is an actual problem with these bindings. There are wildly mixed reviews online - esp on this site. Some say they havent had any prerelease problems whatsoever and others have said they prereleased 4 times on the first day. I don't understand the polarizing nature. I can only attribute it to the fact that some people go harder than others. And I am not one of the people that is going super hard. No huge drops, backflips, or major moguels. Tree skiier though at my core so I guess there is a good bid of dexterity required. Obviously dont want a binding to come off balls deep in some trees... That sounds like nightmare fuel.

That being said... these bindings have been out since like 2011. So, 9 years. You'd think if they were as great as the folks at their HQ tout them, there would be more people on em. Or at least a cult following for em similar to 4FRNT or Moment skis...

Why exactly do you need such a large adjustment range?

If you indeed have two boots with such a large BSL discrepancy, one is almost certainly the wrong size.

I am just concerned that I will have to change boots for an unforeseen reason and as a result will be forced to redrill. And to the best of my knowledge, drilling 4 times on a ski is not recommended.

You can't really experiment with mount point by just moving the heel anyway, you need to move the toe.

I guess only with a true demo binding would you be able to adjust the mount point. Are there even demo bindings out there that come close to non-demo functionality? What do you really lose out on from going to a demo binding. From my knowledge it is added weight and stack height.

FWIW, I'm coming off the same injury as you with a full Patellar tendon autograft repair and 2 meniscus trims (MCL fortunately heeled itself). Last season I turned my DIN's down by 1, unsure if I will ever crank them back up.

Sounds like a pretty similar injury to my own. Patella repair, meniscus trim, and MCL healed on its own. I took a moment to look at your website in your signature and read about your ACL journey. Looks like youve made a full recovery. I am about 7 months post-op and things are still very much a WIP. Any pointers for first days back on the snow? What bindings did you use when you came back? Do you feel like you have the confidence back yet to go full send?

[gregL]

Any pointers for first days back on the snow? What bindings did you use when you came back? Do you feel like you have the confidence back yet to go full send?

Go by yourself so you don't have any pressure from friends, however well-meaning. Go on days with good snow, weather and grooming and let your knee speak for itself; you will know right away if you're pushing too hard. I skied at 7.5 months and felt pretty sketched out at first, felt pretty good anywhere in the ski area by the time the COVID shutdown happened at 9.5 months, have been touring around 22 days since then and it continues to improve. The knee felt strong but still stiff after 12 months, very good but still not "as good as new" at 15 months.

I used my regular alpine setups, most with Warden 13's on them (maybe 4 days on my GS race skis with 20 DIN Markers). I normally ski @ DIN 12, and dialed them back to 11 for the season.

[galibier_numero_un]

So, you said the PBJs have two mounts on them. Are the holes from binders on your short list, and if so, is there a chance you can reuse some of the holes?

I don't know much about the PBJs' construction (other than Moment's good rep), but I'd expect a 4th mount to be fine (with a competent plugging job - bamboo skewers with G-Flex, etc.).

Fuggetaboud Pivot heels for adjustability (as @gregL implied).

... Thom

[scmartin69]

No one has mentioned the standard ACL tear phantom lever scenario...
If you fall down backward and/or to the side stay down and get your skis off the snow. That said, I love my Pivots on all my Moments (release is smoothest but reentry is a PITA in deep snow) and STH2s on my ON3Ps (easy entry and bomber) and am not afraid to use a demo binder.
Regardless, your answer is Sollie Wardens and I reckon Fasa at Moment will back me up on that...

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[gregL]

I am just concerned that I will have to change boots for an unforeseen reason and as a result will be forced to redrill. And to the best of my knowledge, drilling 4 times on a ski is not recommended.

The current range of boots with a walk mode and alpine-like performance in a given size only ranges a few millimeters - if you are in the right shell size now and use a 27.5 Lange XT Free LV now (316mm), the shortest you'll find is 312mm with Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD and the longest is the Rossignol Alltrack family at 318mm, so any binding here will adjust with a few turns of the screwdriver. If you need to change sizes (say, down) and the tech set your bindings in the middle of the adjustment track when mounting them, you should still be OK, though moving the heel only will effectively move your mount point 5mm forward.

I guess only with a true demo binding would you be able to adjust the mount point. Are there even demo bindings out there that come close to non-demo functionality? What do you really lose out on from going to a demo binding. From my knowledge it is added weight and stack height.

That's pretty much true, but do you really want to own a pair of skis with demo bindings? If you don't mind, the Marker Griffon TCX demo and Salomon Warden 13 demo are both decent.

[madriverfreeride]

Knee bindings are the worst pieces of garbage I ever had the misfortune of skiing on. They are horribly un reliable and un predictable, also badly made and have a massive stack height. They do probably save your knees but only because you’ll injure a different part of you from randomly losing one or both skis.

For reference I’m only 140 pounds and run pivots typically at 8 in the toe 9 in the heel. I kept going back to the knee bindings headquarters when issues arose and they upped me to 11 din in the toe and 12 in the heel in an effort to get them to stay on, as well as adding a ton of forward pressure that made them a pain to get into. In the end I traded them for a 6 pack of pbr and I felt like I was getting a good deal. I was on the “park” model which was green but otherwise I’m pretty sure it was the same binding.

My schools freeski team was sponsored by them and gave us like 10 pairs to try out, everybody skied them for about a month and then took them off. They were all mounted by knee bindings at the headquarters, so that wasn’t the issue, they just plain don’t work for anyone skiing anywhere off of a groomed trail.

/end rant

My only advice is to get anything other than knee bindings. The hate on markers is more so because they aren’t the most durable and tend to start failing release tests before other bindings of a similar age. I’ve had 2-3 year old squires and griffons fail the release test while most 10+ year old pivots and sollys will still pass even if they aren’t on the indemnified list anymore. The jesters seem to be better, probably just from more metal in them. Markers are also the hardest to get into, but they changed that for this coming season.

I personally like pivots the best, but the adjustment range is lacking, my second choice is aatacks, they’re cheap and have a good range and tend to hold me in fine. They are also gripwalk compatible and have a low stack height height. Sollys also work well but tend to be a little more money and are slightly taller.

[detrusor]

The actual numbers show a higher incidence of ACL tears with knee bindings. They like to quote the low numbers but nobody uses them so the actual incidence is high.


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[topher23]

The actual numbers show a higher incidence of ACL tears with knee bindings. They like to quote the low numbers but nobody uses them so the actual incidence is high.

Do you have a source for this claim? I saw this comment elsewhere but nothing more than anecdotal evidence.

[topher23]

So, you said the PBJs have two mounts on them. Are the holes from binders on your short list, and if so, is there a chance you can reuse some of the holes?

Dont know as I've got em secondhand. Will have to do some investigation as to whether or not I can reuse the holes... hmm

[topher23]

No one has mentioned the standard ACL tear phantom lever scenario...
If you fall down backward and/or to the side stay down and get your skis off the snow.

Unfortunately, getting your skis off the snow in the phantom foot situation is easier said than done...

[topher23]

Thanks for the reply both about the ACL and bindings gregL.

Will look into the demo bindings you recc'd. Playing with the mount point is frustrating because likely once I find the sweet spot I wont move em. But finding that sweet spot may be a bit of a challenge. In terms of boot shell size... If anything I would go up in since. The Lange's I have are, as I consider, for performance. So if I want to drop down in performance that would involve jumping up a size. We shall see...

[kamtron]

I used my regular alpine setups, most with Warden 13's on them (maybe 4 days on my GS race skis with 20 DIN Markers). I normally ski @ DIN 12, and dialed them back to 11 for the season.

Damn, Greg, that's a lot of DIN for a guy your size! I guess maybe you've got small feet??! I guess you must rip
I do 11 and that's probably more than necessary.

[skibrd]

Look Pivots and buy new skis


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[gregL]

Damn, Greg, that's a lot of DIN for a guy your size! I guess maybe you've got small feet??! I guess you must rip
I do 11 and that's probably more than necessary.

26.5? Plus I'm fatter than you!

[SoVT Joey]

I’ve had two knee surgery’s. Both on the left. Acl and mcl and then this last time was mcl, fibula break and high ankle sprain. First knee was skiing look pivots and second was skiing marker jester pro. I still only ski the jester pro. I work as a ski tech. I’ve tested a lot of bindings. Failure rates are fairly consistent through out all binding companies. Things get old and stop working. Have your bindings tested.

Only reasons I don’t ski a pivot anymore is the heel is a piece of shit in deep snow if you are trying to get it back on. I hate solly and tyrolia just because I was never a fan of the skis that they came on. But they are just as reliable as clamps as the other companies. Just don’t buy the knee binding. I won’t mount them. I don’t trust them and I’m not signing off on them. I have a two pair with Kingpins, soon to be three, and four pairs with jester pros so I really don’t worry about the marker being crap thing.

I ski with a knee brace. A metal hinge donjoy full stop sleeve. It works very well. I don’t ski without it anymore. I knew after my first knee surgery out of ski academy that if I did it again I’d be in a brace. And guess what I’m 33 and I’m ok with that. I’m still not gonna turn down the skiing, just turn down the dins.

Don’t mount demo bindings. Get a proper boot fit and you will be in a close enough boot size for the rest of the short life your skis have left in them. Try to use a set of old holes if you can. Or just buy new skis. And I am a firm believer that unless there is a industry standard with the ski, like some volkls to move the mount point forward or back a little bit, the sweet spots really are on the line. 8-10 years ago that was different story. Ski progression was happening very quickly and placement was being moved as quick as the models were being changed. That’s calmed down. All of these companies test so much before they release now that the pros have all moved the bindings and give feedback and then they make a line recommendation for mounting.

Marker and the kingpin fail was a huge wake up call and has made everyone work a lot harder to make things correct upon first release.


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[tang]

With the 2 mounts issue, I'd get a good set of demo bindings. Tyrolia attacks are great and the make a tech boot version (like an MNC) so they have so much optionality on mounting, sliding the mount point around on the ski, and boot sole compatibility. Downside - a little more weight, a little higher height

[gregL]

And I am a firm believer that unless there is a industry standard with the ski, like some volkls to move the mount point forward or back a little bit, the sweet spots really are on the line. 8-10 years ago that was different story. Ski progression was happening very quickly and placement was being moved as quick as the models were being changed. That’s calmed down. All of these companies test so much before they release now that the pros have all moved the bindings and give feedback and then they make a line recommendation for mounting.

Agreed. It's not like they determine the "recommended" line arbitrarily or without a bunch of good skiers trying it there and agreeing. Even with Völkl, where there are multiple lines, the one with the longest bar next to it (most popular/furthest back) is almost always the right one for most people who buy those skis. Like Joey says, there are models where I consistently thought the recommended line was in the wrong place, but it's been a few years since those skis where sold.

[gregL]

Only reasons I don’t ski a pivot anymore is the heel is a piece of shit in deep snow if you are trying to get it back on.

Pre-2021 Marker Royal Family heels as well, but both work fine if you are aware of the limitations of the binding and pay attention as you are stepping in . . . most Pivot users I know hold the dildo to make sure it is straight and pull up as they step in. Either that or they don't fall in deep snow because they are afraid of missing a lap. Old Markers don't "pivot" offcenter, but the high forward pressure and design of the roller where your heel contacts the binding make false positive engagements easy - people who are used to them make extra sure to clean their boot soles thoroughly, pull up on the dildo when stepping in, and test the security with a couple lunges before taking off.

[galibier_numero_un]

Pre-2021 Marker Royal Family heels as well, but both work fine if you are aware of the limitations of the binding and pay attention as you are stepping in . . . most Pivot users I know hold the dildo to make sure it is straight and pull up as they step in. Either that or they don't fall in deep snow because they are afraid of missing a lap. Old Markers don't "pivot" offcenter, but the high forward pressure and design of the roller where your heel contacts the binding make false positive engagements easy - people who are used to them make extra sure to clean their boot soles thoroughly, pull up on the dildo when stepping in, and test the security with a couple lunges before taking off.

I found this to be the case as well with Pivots (pull up on the dildo while stepping in).

Note that I "only" ski at 8-8.5 at the heel, but found the Aaatacks have a lighter step-in feel (easier to enter in soft snow) than my Wardens. How this translates to "TGR appropriate" release settings, I can't say.

... Thom