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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgapp View Post
    i hope this means that you use like, 6 stoppers for one rappel. that would be cool. or maybe OP's strategy is just to send his least favorite kid down first. should something happen, he can always make more. right??

    in all seriousness - stoppers on rappel do little for someone who isn't proficient jugging a fixed line, building (or finding) an anchor, etc. all it's gonna do is get them stuck on the line when the knot feeds into their device, and then what?

    walking off the 5 feet in the easily-stemmable chimney to the sandy bottomed floor seems like a billion times more preferable than a grom getting stuck on rappel without someone to assist them.
    We use autoblocks on the bottom, prussiks on top, multiple stopper knots, and butterfly knots every 6 feet that each person unties and then reties. It takes us 2 hours to rap a 25' drop, but we're super safe.

    A few years ago after a long multipitch climb, I did about 25 rappels on a sheer rock face in Yosemite in the dark. You can bet your ass we used stoppers each time. Ironically, we forgot to untie one of the knots on the very last pitch and had to come back early the next morning to retrieve the rope.

    Quote Originally Posted by jorion View Post
    Tgapp or someone else who might know: do you know of a guide you would recommend or at least a good canyoneering spot that would be guided and I could research companies that way? I’d probably we willing to throw down some money since it’s doubtful I’ll learn any other way. For my mountaineering goals I need to start learning this type of stuff anyway.

    I’m planning on hiking the little death hollow/wolverine canyon loop so generally around there would be good, but I’m driving from the Bay Area and to telluride afterwards, so it could kind of be wherever in southern Utah.
    I liked the folks at Zion Adventure Company in Springdale, who were knowledgeable and friendly. I think they and other companies around Zion usually do single-day tours to Birch Hollow, which we strongly considered. If I were in Zion, I'd feel good with them.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorion View Post
    Tgapp or someone else who might know: do you know of a guide you would recommend or at least a good canyoneering spot that would be guided and I could research companies that way? Iíd probably we willing to throw down some money since itís doubtful Iíll learn any other way. For my mountaineering goals I need to start learning this type of stuff anyway.

    Iím planning on hiking the little death hollow/wolverine canyon loop so generally around there would be good, but Iím driving from the Bay Area and to telluride afterwards, so it could kind of be wherever in southern Utah.
    ahh dude little death to wolverine is one of my favorite loops ever! make sure to explore the petrified forest on the exit from wolverine.

    a few years back i did it on thanksgiving day with my little brother as a two day loop. we took a full thanksgiving feast with us - everything! gravy, stuffing, mashed potatoes, pumpkin pie, turkey, all prepared as backpacking meals in some way or another. we even had a few bottles of extremely nice beer to drink!

    after wading through chest deep water for the majority of little death (seriously, DO NOT underestimate the very real possibility of getting hypothermic in little death), we finally made it to the confluence where we built a fire and had our dinner. when we woke up from our revelries, we were surprised and shocked to find only one of my little brother's shoes! we spent the morning looking all over for it, and it never showed up. our theory is that some time in the middle of the night my little brother kicked his shoe into the fire, so we had to do all of wolverine with him having only one shoe. pretty classic.

    not a lot of canyoneering translates over to mountaineering skills. people who just do canyons develop very specific strategies for canyoneering, and those strategies don't translate over very well to other mountain sports (when was the last time you heard of a trad climber building a fiddlestick rappel? or a meat anchor? or where does a pothole escape fit into general mountaineering?)

    anyway all this is to say i'm not a canyoneer bruj but for being a non-canyoneer i've done a considerable number of the longest and hardest canyons (full imlay tons of times, kolob, the squeeze, etc), as well as a ton of others. i'd take you out on a trip. it's not hard to learn. if you have decent mountain sense and know how to rig rappels that's like 90% of it. pothole escapes are like aid climbing but funny and different.

  3. #28
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    FYI we hiked LDH to Wolverine 2 weeks ago and it is very dry. I highly recommend doing it as an overnight, as there are great campsites in the Horse Canyon section about midway. But bring enough water for the whole thing, as you won't find anything drinkable. We read a lot of conflicting info about LDH's difficulty, but it's quite easy, with only a couple of spots of 3rd class scrambling. Zebra Slot is also a great easy hit, and worth the trip despite the crowds.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  4. #29
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    Self-guided Beginner Canyoneering in Utah?

    How long was the drive from incline to s. Utah? Where was that initial spot?

    Last time I was in the CO plateau (too long ago), a friend and I walked into and spent a few days in west canyon, including the slot. It was awesome and beautiful. Itíd changed since the Kelsey book was written and the helper holes had unfortunately been ďfixed,Ē which was a little disappointing.
    Last edited by bodywhomper; 10-13-2020 at 10:05 PM.

  5. #30
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    The Little Death Hollow/Wolverine Loop looks amazing. I think my next Utah trip will focus on the stuff around Escalante and Capitol Reef. Zion and Moab are amazing and lived up to the hype, but I really liked the chill, less-crowded nature of Torrey, Capitol Reef, and the drive along Hwy 12 between Torrey and Bryce. (Hwy 95 between Blanding and Hanksville was also incredible.) I also wish I had time to check out the Pando tree near Fish Lake, having recently read about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bodywhomper View Post
    How long was the drive from incline to s. Utah? Where was that initial spot?
    Tahoe to Moab, with a four-hour stop at Great Basin. The drive itself was probably 10.5 hours.

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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKbruin View Post
    The Little Death Hollow/Wolverine Loop looks amazing. I think my next Utah trip will focus on the stuff around Escalante and Capitol Reef. Zion and Moab are amazing and lived up to the hype, but I really liked the chill, less-crowded nature of Torrey, Capitol Reef, and the drive along Hwy 12 between Torrey and Bryce. (Hwy 95 between Blanding and Hanksville was also incredible.) I also wish I had time to check out the Pando tree near Fish Lake, having recently read about it.



    Tahoe to Moab, with a four-hour stop at Great Basin. The drive itself was probably 10.5 hours.

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    Definitely go check out the Pando. Pretty cool place - it's amazing to think about, even if the area is understated. Just looks like any old Aspen Grove.

    Out of curiosity, where were you reading about it?

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgapp View Post
    Definitely go check out the Pando. Pretty cool place - it's amazing to think about, even if the area is understated. Just looks like any old Aspen Grove.

    Out of curiosity, where were you reading about it?

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

    ^^^I'm nearly through and have really enjoyed it.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKbruin View Post

    ^^^I'm nearly through and have really enjoyed it.
    oh yeah that's fantastic, one of the best nonfiction reads of the year. he has such a conversational, colloquial style.

    read the Overstory next. it's a novel, and probably the best book I've read in 10years. seriously. can't recommend it enough.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

  9. #34
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    Oh wow, so much good info in this thread. I think Iím most excited about the book since I spend much more sober time than I assume most people do staring at plants and wondering to what degree theyíre sentient and what that experience is like.

    Iíve got a few more days of intense workdays to power through and in the meantime going to look into all these super useful tips and recs.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorion View Post
    Oh wow, so much good info in this thread. I think Iím most excited about the book since I spend much more sober time than I assume most people do staring at plants and wondering to what degree theyíre sentient and what that experience is like.

    Iíve got a few more days of intense workdays to power through and in the meantime going to look into all these super useful tips and recs.
    read both books. overstory is a novel full of true tree facts and secret life is like listening to a bunch of really cool tree facts told by your grandpa (if your grandpa was a forest manager from germany).

  11. #36
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    This isnít exactly a beginner trail, but there is a great series about the Hayduke Trail playing on Prime right now. Maybe you can find it on YouTube, too. Hereís a sample (the actual series is much longer):

    Last edited by billyk; 10-16-2020 at 01:08 AM.

  12. #37
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    jorion: I found a lot of helpful info on roadtripryan.com. It may or may not help you.

    tgapp: Added Overstory to my reading queue.

    billyk: I only watched the first ten minutes, but it looks like a fun series. I'll check it out. In another dimension where I have a trust fund and no kids, I'm doing a lot of massive thru hikes. Sadly, in this dimension, work and family mean that I have to make the most out of weekends and meagre vacation time.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKbruin View Post
    jorion: I found a lot of helpful info on roadtripryan.com. It may or may not help you.

    tgapp: Added Overstory to my reading queue.

    billyk: I only watched the first ten minutes, but it looks like a fun series. I'll check it out. In another dimension where I have a trust fund and no kids, I'm doing a lot of massive thru hikes. Sadly, in this dimension, work and family mean that I have to make the most out of weekends and meagre vacation time.
    I wouldnít recommend ANYONE do that trail (the people who will do it donít give a crap about my opinion, anyway). It is just a cool series to watch, and somewhat related to the subject of this thread since it involves canyons in Utah/Arizona. The best part of that video is in the middle, BTW, when they are descending into the Grand Canyon via a slot canyon sliding into ďplunge poolsĒ.

    But, no rational person should actually attempt this.

  14. #39
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    As someone with a large aspen tree in the middle of my wife's rock garden I do not find anything romantic about aspen trees sprouting from root systems. Just saying.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyk View Post
    I wouldn’t recommend ANYONE do that trail (the people who will do it don’t give a crap about my opinion, anyway). It is just a cool series to watch, and somewhat related to the subject of this thread since it involves canyons in Utah/Arizona. The best part of that video is in the middle, BTW, when they are descending into the Grand Canyon via a slot canyon sliding into “plunge pools”.

    But, no rational person should actually attempt this.
    I am totally fucking doing it. Why not? I did the AT in 1996 SOBO and have been looking for something that doesn't bore the fuck out of me.

  16. #41
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    Not to stir the rappeling pot, but would it not be wise to pre rig the kids rappel so that you go first and then have control of their descent? I know little to nothing about canyoneering, but in an alpine rappel I prefer to pre rig kids or novices then go first.

    I agree it is a constitutional right for Americans to be assholes...its just too bad that so many take the opportunity...
    iscariot

  17. #42
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    It wasn’t necessary. The kids have been climbing and rappelling at local Tahoe crags for three years. We re-reviewed and practiced setting up the PAS, rappel device, and an auto-block in the weeks before the trip and on the first few raps until I had complete confidence. Pre-configuring their setups would have been a nightmare, and probably less safe. I could have belayed them, but that’s less fun and slow, among other issues. I used to always be ready with a fireman’s when the kids were on rappel, but now it seems unnecessary, particularly given the auto-block.

  18. #43
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    Just knot the end of the rope, such an easy step.

  19. #44
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    I'm starting to plan another family trip to southern Utah this fall. I'm thinking of focusing more on the general Escalante, Torrey, North Wash areas (maybe a little Zion). Any recommendations for:
    *moderate canyoneering routes
    *2-3 day backpacking routes [Little Death/Wolverine sounds interesting per jorion and tgapp]
    *campgrounds/basecamps
    *cool shit?

  20. #45
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    I realize I never updated this thread after my trip last year, which was incredible and maybe/probably the highlight of 2020 for me. I took so many photos that I was overwhelmed with trying to select a few to post here.

    Little death to wolverine loop was incredible as promised. Itís a very easy overnight trip in the dry conditions I had. If you wanted to make it a long day-hike you guys wouldnít be too taxed, knowing your fitness levels. I also didnít see anyone the first day and just a few people the second.

    I also hiked a bunch of the other more famous slots like zebra, peek-a-boo, spooky, brimstone. They were all well worth the trip but busy except for brimstone.

    Iím also hoping to go back this fall with my partner since thereís plenty of mellow stuff that would be fun for both of us.

    I never did manage to hook up a canyoneering trip since none of the guides I called last-minute could fit me in. Definitely want to try that this year.

    I donít really have any recs since I feel like the road trip Ryan site you shared was the source of most things I did.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jorion View Post
    I realize I never updated this thread after my trip last year, which was incredible and maybe/probably the highlight of 2020 for me. I took so many photos that I was overwhelmed with trying to select a few to post here.

    Little death to wolverine loop was incredible as promised. It’s a very easy overnight trip in the dry conditions I had. If you wanted to make it a long day-hike you guys wouldn’t be too taxed, knowing your fitness levels. I also didn’t see anyone the first day and just a few people the second.

    I also hiked a bunch of the other more famous slots like zebra, peek-a-boo, spooky, brimstone. They were all well worth the trip but busy except for brimstone.

    I’m also hoping to go back this fall with my partner since there’s plenty of mellow stuff that would be fun for both of us.

    I never did manage to hook up a canyoneering trip since none of the guides I called last-minute could fit me in. Definitely want to try that this year.

    I don’t really have any recs since I feel like the road trip Ryan site you shared was the source of most things I did.
    Thanks, dude. Some kind of 3-day trip around (not little) Death Hallow and Escalante River looks cool and a bit adventurous. Hurricane Wash/Red Well to Coyote Gutch also looks good.

  22. #47
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    If you want someone to do shuttle with on Death Hollow I am interested. My schedule is pretty open in the fall, Have been to the start I could not really find it. I imagine once you start dropping in everything narrows down.
    off your knees Louie

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFD View Post
    If you want someone to do shuttle with on Death Hollow I am interested. My schedule is pretty open in the fall, Have been to the start I could not really find it. I imagine once you start dropping in everything narrows down.
    Good to know! Right now, we're still very much in the planning stage, and the Little Death Hallow/Wolverine Loop looks very enticing.

    Jorion: Did you overnight it and, if so, what was your mileage? It looks like it's between 23 and 29 miles, which might be a bit long for the family to do in a single day.

  24. #49
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    Hmm, the route I did was just 16 or 17 miles plus a detour of a few miles to check out the area with all the cool petrified wood.

    I recall now seeing some different info (longer mileage) that didnít make sense to me, so youíre probably seeing the same thing. I can email you the loop I downloaded from somewhere if you want. I think I recorded with my watch too so I should have that if I dig a little.

  25. #50
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    I did spend the night btw, at the intersection of little death and horse canyon. There was running water there despite the very dry conditions.

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