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Thread: STH 13

  1. #1
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    STH 13

    Anyone see an issue using Salomon STH 13 for an 11 yo girl, advanced skier, 5’2” tall, 105 lbs, 25.5 boot / 296 BSL. DIN comes up 5.5, STH range is
    5 -13. Is being at the bottom of range a concern?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdude2468 View Post
    Anyone see an issue using Salomon STH 13 for an 11 yo girl, advanced skier, 5’2” tall, 105 lbs, 25.5 boot / 296 BSL. DIN comes up 5.5, STH range is
    5 -13. Is being at the bottom of range a concern?
    Not unless it tests high and you don't have enough range to adjust . . .

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    Does she really need a 25.5 boot? Also, I believe you need to classify her as a III+ skier to get a 5.5 DIN with those numbers . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    Does she really need a 25.5 boot? Also, I believe you need to classify her as a III+ skier to get a 5.5 DIN with those numbers . . .
    ^^^ Yes. 25.5 MP size boot would be an appropriate fit for a men’s size 9 shoe.

    I do potentially see a problem if the boot is in fact a size or two (or three) too big combined with a III+ skier classification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One (+) Sentence View Post
    ^^^ Yes. 25.5 MP size boot would be an appropriate fit for a men’s size 9 shoe.

    I do potentially see a problem if the boot is in fact a size or two (or three) too big combined with a III+ skier classification.
    11 years old and size 9 shoe, we checked and making it through this season is touch and go, barely one finger behind her heel. I figure 5’2” is just a point on her growth curve. She is in line for a new pair of skis which Grandpa always buys. I am trying to avoid remounting bindings when she grows, STH 13 has the convenient screw adjustment. She is a racer and skis fast making GS turns with her hips practically touching the snow, lots of torque.

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    Men's size 9? How thick is the finger in millimeters? At her level, a 10-12mm shell fit should be fine, I suspect her feet will stop growing shortly and she'll keep getting taller.

    Not saying you're wrong, but if you drop to even a 24.5 boot you get a 6 DIN and have more leeway.

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    [QUOTE=gregL;6063980]Men's size 9? How thick is the finger in millimeters? At her level, a 10-12mm shell fit should be fine, I suspect her feet will stop growing shortly and she'll keep getting taller.

    Not saying you're wrong, but if you drop to even a 24.5 boot you get a 6 DIN and have more leeway.[

    Wish that would work but she uses Lange race boots and was in a 24.5 most of last season until March when her crabbing got to be too much. Our son picked up a pair on close out in 25.5 and she had ample room but on Saturday when we did a no liner boot fit I could barely get one finger behind her heel.

    A little more background: I have JigaRex plates for Salomon S/Z10 and STH bindings . The S/Z series is the three screw toe which is fine but I despise the cheesy brake set up with the two little taps. We have had two sets of heels break on these. I think the STH is a far superior binding with the manual toe height and side wing adjustment. Also the screw for forward pressure IMO is far superior than the notch type set up. I double checked the DIN and at level 3 instead of 3+ it still came up 5.5. This is her last January when she was 10, 10 lbs lighter and 3" shorter.


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  8. #8
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    I believe you are reading the DIN chart incorrectly. A 5’2” 12 year old skier who is 105lbs with a 296mm BSL would need to be classified as III+ to get a DIN setting of 5.5.
    Last edited by One (+) Sentence; 09-07-2020 at 06:36 AM.

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    Going by the numbers works up to a point. If the clamps test under/over then it is harder to nail the sweet spot.

    Primary concern is safety, second is performance.
    These two generally oppose, so you have to decide how much risk you can afford.

    Things to consider: Does she wreck often or rarely? Is it carnage or tend to be controlled falls.
    If you fall a fuckton, easy consistent release is vital. If you only take a digger occasionally, consistent retention is key.

    Kids flex better than we do. That's a factor as well.
    A race trained kid gains a 1/2 point din in my book BTW.

    She's really right at the point where this could be a good entry to adult clamps. As well as potential for damage due to overclamping.

    It's a fine line, and good that you are concerned.
    Ours is a risky sport and it would suck to have a catastrophic injury before becoming a teenager.

    BUT, my general attitude is this: If your kid is that good and is still excited about getting better, then don't cut corners. Just suck it up and get the most appropriate thing you can.
    This often means cost redundancy for a family. Paying for the same shit over and over.

    What you don't want is a nagging feeling about the binders, everytime she gets after it.

    I gotta believe there's a perfect set of binders here for cheap...

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    With boots that big the DIN doesn't matter, if she crashes hard enough she'll come flying right out of those buckets on her feet.
    I remember a bottomless freedom...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djongo Unchained View Post
    Going by the numbers works up to a point. If the clamps test under/over then it is harder to nail the sweet spot.

    Primary concern is safety, second is performance.
    These two generally oppose, so you have to decide how much risk you can afford.

    Things to consider: Does she wreck often or rarely? Is it carnage or tend to be controlled falls.
    If you fall a fuckton, easy consistent release is vital. If you only take a digger occasionally, consistent retention is key.

    Kids flex better than we do. That's a factor as well.
    A race trained kid gains a 1/2 point din in my book BTW.

    She's really right at the point where this could be a good entry to adult clamps. As well as potential for damage due to overclamping.

    It's a fine line, and good that you are concerned.
    Ours is a risky sport and it would suck to have a catastrophic injury before becoming a teenager.

    BUT, my general attitude is this: If your kid is that good and is still excited about getting better, then don't cut corners. Just suck it up and get the most appropriate thing you can.
    This often means cost redundancy for a family. Paying for the same shit over and over.

    What you don't want is a nagging feeling about the binders, everytime she gets after it.

    I gotta believe there's a perfect set of binders here for cheap...
    Thanks, well said and yea, always trade offs, she seldom wrecks. So tough to figure with a growing young one. At the end of the day she is still just 11 years old and weighs 105 lbs. With that said I think she is a 3+ as steep is not something she backs away from. Outside of refusing to hike Baldy she has skied everything else at Alta and likes to hike, third's to Eddies might be her favorite run or Eagles Nest after a big storm. I think I might suck it up as you say and get a JigaRex plate for the Look Pivot. The Pivot NX is 4 -12 and that gets her exactly where she needs to be and the ability to move it up as she grows. Like I said I just hate the Salomon S series so if I don't want to use that one and the STH at 5.5 is a stretch at least for this season the Pivot is a good alternative.

    Thanks all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djongo Unchained View Post
    BUT, my general attitude is this: If your kid is that good and is still excited about getting better, then don't cut corners. Just suck it up and get the most appropriate thing you can.
    This often means cost redundancy for a family. Paying for the same shit over and over....
    This is really good advice.

    Also, even IF those boots are remotely the right size and you feel 5.5 is an appropriate DIN setting, I still would probably rather not have the wing and toe height adjustment that comes with the STH2 13 toe pieces. There are other bindings with automatic toe height and wing adjustments that also have the worm drive forward pressure adjust if that’s what you’re really after. The STH1 12 for example (which also starts its DIN range at 3.5 or 4 IIRC.)

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    Not sure it matters to OP since he's doing the mounting, but the STH model bindings I believe are no longer indemnified for 20-21, so they can't actually be tested by a shop for proper function

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdude2468 View Post
    I think I might suck it up as you say and get a JigaRex plate for the Look Pivot
    Seems like a good plan, but hard to find pivot plates right now. Might need to do a paper mount


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    With boots that big the DIN doesn't matter, if she crashes hard enough she'll come flying right out of those buckets on her feet.
    I can absolutely visualize this. Exceptin' I don't wanna see a kid get hurt, that shit makes me laugh so hard. Even more so when it's some aggro dooder having a personal explosion.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigdude2468 View Post
    Thanks, well said and yea, always trade offs, she seldom wrecks. So tough to figure with a growing young one. At the end of the day she is still just 11 years old and weighs 105 lbs. With that said I think she is a 3+ as steep is not something she backs away from. Outside of refusing to hike Baldy she has skied everything else at Alta and likes to hike, third's to Eddies might be her favorite run or Eagles Nest after a big storm. I think I might suck it up as you say and get a JigaRex plate for the Look Pivot. The Pivot NX is 4 -12 and that gets her exactly where she needs to be and the ability to move it up as she grows. Like I said I just hate the Salomon S series so if I don't want to use that one and the STH at 5.5 is a stretch at least for this season the Pivot is a good alternative.

    Thanks all...
    A kid being a 3+ for ability to ski pitch, isn't quite the same as 3+ of bona fide race skills. Lotsa kids are badass until you get them on a course.

    I'd not judge your daughter before skiing with her, so that's not in reference to your her but it amazes me how many parents bring their kids to jh and realize their offspring are really not experts after all.

    From that sick pic, I say bring her up next winter! I love to ski with ripping kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by One (+) Sentence View Post
    This is really good advice.

    Also, even IF those boots are remotely the right size and you feel 5.5 is an appropriate DIN setting, I still would probably rather not have the wing and toe height adjustment that comes with the STH2 13 toe pieces. There are other bindings with automatic toe height and wing adjustments that also have the worm drive forward pressure adjust if that’s what you’re really after. The STH1 12 for example (which also starts its DIN range at 3.5 or 4 IIRC.)
    I only use the Salomon 900/997/equipe models. For over 30 years, maching around the villy. I prefer the adjustable toe and wings.

    Unlike the young missus, I weigh 200+ and ski some. So I notice more play in the auto toes and that bugs me. A lightweight kiddo might not get that slop.
    Even if that's the design, it's unappealing.
    Same with heels that are hard as fuck to get into at 12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djongo Unchained View Post
    I can absolutely visualize this. Exceptin' I don't wanna see a kid get hurt, that shit makes me laugh so hard. Even more so when it's some aggro dooder having a personal explosion.




    A kid being a 3+ for ability to ski pitch, isn't quite the same as 3+ of bona fide race skills. Lotsa kids are badass until you get them on a course.

    I'd not judge your daughter before skiing with her, so that's not in reference to your her but it amazes me how many parents bring their kids to jh and realize their offspring are really not experts after all.

    From that sick pic, I say bring her up next winter! I love to ski with ripping kids.



    I only use the Salomon 900/997/equipe models. For over 30 years, maching around the villy. I prefer the adjustable toe and wings.

    Unlike the young missus, I weigh 200+ and ski some. So I notice more play in the auto toes and that bugs me. A lightweight kiddo might not get that slop.
    Even if that's the design, it's unappealing.
    Same with heels that are hard as fuck to get into at 12.
    Sure, I prefer the adjustable wing and toe height for myself too. But for a 11 year old girl, I’d prefer automatic toes all day long.

    Keep in mind too, this is for his granddaughter. How often he is able to get his hands on her ski equipment throughout the season to keep tabs on wing and toe height adjustments is unknown. Along those same lines, maybe he should show this thread to her parents to see how they feel about her setup after reading these replies.

    I think he is on the right track to seek out that Look NX binding with the 3-11 DIN range. Even if he doesn’t have a jig or template for those. You don’t need a jig to (mis)mount skis in the garage 😉.

    (The winky emoji means I’m just kidding and not really an asshole, right?)

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    Her Mom & Dad were college racers, dad is a coach, nothing happens without them being on board. BTW, last fall she mounted her new pair of powder skis. Unfortunately they are already too short.

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    im gonna pass on expert advice
    but
    from the mount and jigs
    to broform on binders
    to the desire to mechanically bench test your sth's with the montana fudgeinator5k
    i got u and yur groms 6
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    Maybe you should ask her parents what binders they want for their daughter given their experience. Sth 13 doesn’t seem like the right binding imo. Questionable boot fit at 25.5, remarkable skill level at 3+, and borderline within the lower tolerance of the binding doesn’t seem like the right fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tenB View Post
    Maybe you should ask her parents what binders they want for their daughter given their experience. Sth 13 doesn’t seem like the right binding imo. Questionable boot fit at 25.5, remarkable skill level at 3+, and borderline within the lower tolerance of the binding doesn’t seem like the right fit.
    Why do you think 25.5 is the wrong size? We bought her size 7 shoes last summer and she cannot begin to get her feet into those shoes. OJ would be proud of the way the shoes do not fit.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdude2468 View Post
    Why do you think 25.5 is the wrong size? We bought her size 7 shoes last summer and she cannot begin to get her feet into those shoes. OJ would be proud of the way the shoes do not fit.
    Like I said, I'm not saying you're wrong but I'm not there to look at her foot in the boot.

    As long as your street shoes aren't too big, a 25.5 is usually a decent performance fit for a size 9 US men's shoe wearer or a size 10 US women's shoe wearer. Or a foot that's roughly between 26 centimeters and 26.5 centimeters long. Add 2-3mm if you're using a Brannock.

    The real test is shell fit, which for a skilled and aggressive skier is usually around 10-12 millimeters, maybe less if you have the right bootfitter. Men's fingers range between 10mm and around 18mm front to back depending on the person, with "big dudes" typically in the 16-17mm range. If she has 10-12mm in the 24.5, the cramping ("crabbing?") is probably due to another cause, typically lack of forefoot width, inappropriate footbed, lack of instep height, etc.

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    Things to mention:

    -skier type is not how good you are. It’s how aggressively you ski. Technique factors in to it to a point, but for the most part it’s about being aggro, not just good.

    -as GregL mentioned, the only issue with being at the bottom of the din range is being able to calibrate the binding to fall within spec during a torque test. While it’s a good idea to have +/-2 on either end of your setting, it does not affect binding performance whatever.

    -Don’t mount your 11-year old’s skis with pivots unless you want to remount, there is not enough adjustability if her foot grows (although that seems...kind of unlikely). You mentioned “pivot NX” and make sure you know those are two different things. The NX heel is (comparatively) a piece of junk, and even though she only weighs 100 pounds, the elastic travel is less than a pivot or spx heel and lacks similar performance.

    -If she grew up racing, and her parents are racers and coaches, there’s a good chance she’s at or approaching the point where the din chart is not the end-all-be-all. I see plenty of high level racers/freestylers/jibbers needing settings outside the din range starting around that age, some well before. At the same time, there’s plenty of kids that will blow your doors off that run a low retention setting and don’t regularly prerelease. The chart is the starting point, not the end.

    -tab vs worm screw: this is really a durability issue, and at 100 pounds, really shouldn’t be a factor. Worm screws were implemented in bindings for fine-tuning forward pressure back when it made a difference. The detents on the sth2 heel have largely negated that adjustability anyway. I wouldn’t get hung up on that feature.

    -automatic toes are pretty much industry standard for a reason, even the P18 is an automatic toe. The wing adjustments on the driver toe are a hangover from the 727, when their primary focus was retention. Salomon was blowing everyone else out of the water with like 20mm of elastic travel back then, nowadays the ski feel from an auto toe is significantly better than it was, and there’s way more elastic travel. That said, there still are plenty of crappy auto toes, the salomon quad/Z toe certainly being one of them.

    Per your original query: sth2 13 is a good binding, but you can probably do better for this application. I’d say throw her on a look SPX 12 GW and call it a day. Still a high performance and durable binder, with a better din range, and they’re cheap as chips, probably last her through high school.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZomblibulaX View Post
    Things to mention:

    -skier type is not how good you are. It’s how aggressively you ski. Technique factors in to it to a point, but for the most part it’s about being aggro, not just good.

    -as GregL mentioned, the only issue with being at the bottom of the din range is being able to calibrate the binding to fall within spec during a torque test. While it’s a good idea to have +/-2 on either end of your setting, it does not affect binding performance whatever.

    -Don’t mount your 11-year old’s skis with pivots unless you want to remount, there is not enough adjustability if her foot grows (although that seems...kind of unlikely). You mentioned “pivot NX” and make sure you know those are two different things. The NX heel is (comparatively) a piece of junk, and even though she only weighs 100 pounds, the elastic travel is less than a pivot or spx heel and lacks similar performance.

    -If she grew up racing, and her parents are racers and coaches, there’s a good chance she’s at or approaching the point where the din chart is not the end-all-be-all. I see plenty of high level racers/freestylers/jibbers needing settings outside the din range starting around that age, some well before. At the same time, there’s plenty of kids that will blow your doors off that run a low retention setting and don’t regularly prerelease. The chart is the starting point, not the end.

    -tab vs worm screw: this is really a durability issue, and at 100 pounds, really shouldn’t be a factor. Worm screws were implemented in bindings for fine-tuning forward pressure back when it made a difference. The detents on the sth2 heel have largely negated that adjustability anyway. I wouldn’t get hung up on that feature.

    -automatic toes are pretty much industry standard for a reason, even the P18 is an automatic toe. The wing adjustments on the driver toe are a hangover from the 727, when their primary focus was retention. Salomon was blowing everyone else out of the water with like 20mm of elastic travel back then, nowadays the ski feel from an auto toe is significantly better than it was, and there’s way more elastic travel. That said, there still are plenty of crappy auto toes, the salomon quad/Z toe certainly being one of them.

    Per your original query: sth2 13 is a good binding, but you can probably do better for this application. I’d say throw her on a look SPX 12 GW and call it a day. Still a high performance and durable binder, with a better din range, and they’re cheap as chips, probably last her through high school.
    ++

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    FWIW an 11 year old girl is likely at or very close to her full grown foot length.

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    I used Salomon Z10/12’s or Marker Squires for my kids. Saved some weight and release value range was appropriate. But they are just all-mtn skiers and not racers. YMMV.
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