Canada

[grinch]

We're still going to go through this discussion several more times in the next year, or atleast until dumps tremendous new health care plan is released and its the best evvvar

Sent from my SM-G950W using TGR Forums mobile app

[pureantigravity]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...2020-1.5718589

this is a timely artical given the discussion on OR waits

https://www.healthmatchbc.org/?utm_s...THBssrNjgN9LSw

I get this every other day on my FB page unsolicited and I imagine every MD and nurse in Alberta is getting this as well

Canada - where healthcare really isn't free and
you couldn't pay for it even if you could.

The irony is that after the hospital discharges you (they try to do that as soon as possible), you end up footing the bill for medications, physio and other therapies.
So the system is really "insitu emergency medical treatment" and not really "accessible health care."

Someone on our council just had a 9+ months wait for hip surgery ... because free isn't timely.

And yes, you pay for it in taxes. So it really isn't free as in free-beer.

Mind you, it covers the BIG SURPRISE unlike the american every man for himself system.

[ski_it]

Location plays a much bigger role in Canadian health care (obviously) because of population density.

A great example of the two systems is hip replacements, especially since that is a very popular surgery. A common situation in Canada is wait a long time or go to Quebec and pay 15000$ US out of pocket. In the US, no wait but it's $45000, with $3000-5000 deductible or so. What do you chose....

[Angle Parking]

Relevant to the healthcare discussion;

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...hallenge-that/

[pureantigravity]

How much does the 'average' Canadian pay in a year for public health care?

About $5,789.

"That per capita rate would put Canada near the high end of what other advanced economies pay. According to the CIHI, in 2014, the last year for which comparable data was available, Canada spent $5,543 per resident, more than the United Kingdom ($4,986) and Australia ($5,187) but less than Sweden ($6,245) and far less than the United States ($11,126)."

https://nationalpost.com/health/how-...-public-health

So there you have it. Canadians just don't equate "bad service" with "poor value".
As long as everyone in Canada is subject to the same medical inconveniences,
hakuna mattata!

[paulster2626]

While it seems everyone knows someone who had to wait a long time for something I'm sure was totally necessary right away, I don't. I've been nothing but impressed with our healthcare system and will continue to advocate on its behalf. I would not trade what we have for anything. Maybe pay a bit more to include regular dental care and other preventative things, but definitely keep the other shit the way it is.

[Angle Parking]

While it seems everyone knows someone who had to wait a long time for something I'm sure was totally necessary right away, I don't. I've been nothing but impressed with our healthcare system and will continue to advocate on its behalf. I would not trade what we have for anything. Maybe pay a bit more to include regular dental care and other preventative things, but definitely keep the other shit the way it is.

I'm with paulster. I've had both positive and negative experiences with our system but there is no way I would trade what we have for an American style system. Nothing is perfect. Having said that Canadian healthcare is awesome.

As for Canadian taxes, I have zero problem paying them. I do not find them to be unreasonable at all. For what I get, they are a deal. Glad to help others as well.

[skiitsbetter]

Speaking of old white people who think they can afford private health care, is the border closure reciprocal? I think once first cold snap hits, the snowbirds (aka old people with money who vote) will be squawking for the government to open the border so they can thaw in Arizona. And I'm sure people will rationalize it as "only a few hardy Americans will want to come visit freezing Canada anyways, what's the big deal?"

[Angle Parking]

Speaking of old white people who think they can afford private health care, is the border closure reciprocal? I think once first cold snap hits, the snowbirds (aka old people with money who vote) will be squawking for the government to open the border so they can thaw in Arizona. And I'm sure people will rationalize it as "only a few hardy Americans will want to come visit freezing Canada anyways, what's the big deal?"

Maybe, but i'm not so sure about that. I think Canadians of all ages and stripes seem pretty united on the border issue.

[ex-powderbroker]

has anyone lived in germany and canada that can compare the systems? on the face it seems like they are a pretty similar blend of public and private, with higher earning people in germany having to pay more for some elements of coverage. i think they also can pay to get treatment. wait times are very short there, even less than the us, but i don’t see how offering a lot of private services wouldn’t come at the expense of people who refuse to or can’t pay additionally for non-emergency services.

[XXX-er]

Speaking of old white people who think they can afford private health care, is the border closure reciprocal? I think once first cold snap hits, the snowbirds (aka old people with money who vote) will be squawking for the government to open the border so they can thaw in Arizona. And I'm sure people will rationalize it as "only a few hardy Americans will want to come visit freezing Canada anyways, what's the big deal?"

in a poll 86% of Canadians think the border should stay closed so there would not be much political will to open it

the original premise of this thread was not the Canadian HC system , it was an american whining about the border being closed cuz he wants to go skiing

maybe the whole situ down there including what you just wrote would indicate


too many people down there don't get it

[paulster2626]

Speaking of old white people who think they can afford private health care, is the border closure reciprocal? I think once first cold snap hits, the snowbirds (aka old people with money who vote) will be squawking for the government to open the border so they can thaw in Arizona. And I'm sure people will rationalize it as "only a few hardy Americans will want to come visit freezing Canada anyways, what's the big deal?"

The old white people have a hard enough time getting travel insurance as it is, and I would assume that anything available now would include a we-ain't-gonna-pay-for-your-COVID-bills clause in it. So I doubt they are in a hurry.

[altasnob]

The land border between US and Canada is closed, but Canadians can still fly to the US (but subject to quarantine upon return). My old parents are heading back to their house in Mexico in a few weeks. The town is filled with old Canadians as well. I bet the Canadians would return to Mexico too if they could, but they typically drive down and may not want to fly.

XXX-er, that poll you post ad nauseam is from early July. Have any updated data?

[altasnob]

Also, the number of new COVID infections in BC vs. Washington, per million, is getting closer and closer to being the same. If the trend continues, you may see more new COVID infections, per million, in BC vs. Washington. Oregon is doing even better than Washington, and hence, even closer to falling below BC in new infections per million.

[XXX-er]

no

try goggle

do you think people would change their mind as they learn the potus lied and the death toll reaches 200,000 ?

edit: between this and the whistler thread there are 2 recent threads on Canada covid & the border closure's, I think how America vues itself vs how we see America is very different

[garyfromterrace]

I'm with paulster. I've had both positive and negative experiences with our system but there is no way I would trade what we have for an American style system. Nothing is perfect. Having said that Canadian healthcare is awesome.

As for Canadian taxes, I have zero problem paying them. I do not find them to be unreasonable at all. For what I get, they are a deal. Glad to help others as well.

Ditto here. 2 ACL reconstructions, 3 arthroscopic surgeries, numerous ER visits over the years (including enough X-rays to be a super hero), I wouldn't trade our HC system for any others. As to Germany's system ML242 my step daughter lives there and to all accounts I've got from her and her husband it sounds very similar re cost, wait times, quality of care.
Altasnob, C'mon man. You think as the US continues to fumble their response to Covid (go Trump go) you think more Canadians want to open the border to discretionary trips?

[altasnob]

The majority of Americans hate Trump, and hated Trump in 2016, yet he may still get reelected because of the US's fucked up electoral college system (hopefully fixed next time Democrats have power, as well as giving Washington DC the two senators they deserve, which would make the US as liberal as Canada). My general point on the border is that a vaccine is not likely to bail us all out any time soon. Fast forward to Spring 2021, corona virus will still be around everywhere. By then, it will likely be equally prevalent in Washington, Oregon, and BC. What Americans actually travel to BC, particularly with airline flights down? My guess is the majority are from Washington and Oregon (and wealthy). So why continue to keep the BC/Washington border closed when you are just as likely to contract the virus in each location (not saying that is the current situation, but is likely the situation in a few months). Also, someone from BC justifying the border closure is like someone from Norway saying they don't want people from Denmark in because the virus is out of control in Spain. The virus problem in the US is increasingly being focused on the Trump supporting South (and unfortunately, in lower income minority populations). Do these people travel to BC? I also think the BC economy is more reliant on discretionary border travel than Washington's economy. Finally, I consider myself a global citizen, not an American (thanks Bad Religion). I support mask mandates, social distancing, and travel restrictions supported by science, but I don't support border closings of any kind (unless each area has a travel restriction on their own citizens, which is not currently the case).

[XXX-er]

The most conservative politician in Canada couldn't be a democrat

a vaccine is likely a year or more likely 2 years out, its updated month by month ( every 21st ) but count on the border being closed for at least another year more likely 2 years

the border is more than BC/ washington its > 4000 miles long the longest unprotected border in the world, there is a huge shwack of people down east on both sides of the border so its > BC/washington.

You can't look at it regionaly its a federal issue so CBSA thinks all 320million of you are american citizens cuz in spite of your rugged individualism you are actualy all in it togetehr SO you have to look at everyone within a controled border and thats why all Americans can't come here for the next long time

[Dromond]

I'm with paulster. I've had both positive and negative experiences with our system but there is no way I would trade what we have for an American style system. Nothing is perfect. Having said that Canadian healthcare is awesome.

As for Canadian taxes, I have zero problem paying them. I do not find them to be unreasonable at all. For what I get, they are a deal. Glad to help others as well.

My sister-in-law grew up in Maine (which she loves) but went to vet school in Canada and has been there for 15 years now - currently in Ontario. At first she found the taxes and cost of living annoying but having now had a child says should would not trade with regards to healthcare. I have not yet met a person who has experienced living with both HC systems and prefers the US one - but perhaps they are out there.

A coworker of mine (in Vancouver Canada) telling me about his experience moving between countries is something I will not soon forget. He is not white, which I think is relevant to the story. He was born in Venezuela, then moved to the U.S. at a young age as his father was from here. He grew up in Houston, being thought of and referred to as Venezuelan, even though he has a US accent and had lived there most of his life. He moved to Canada during college (his parents moved there just before, I think) and said that everyone immediately greeted him as a Canadian, and that he was new referred to as Venezuelan or American. He just felt 100% accepted in a way that he never was in the U.S. and has remained in Canada mostly since then. He just straight up thinks is a better country having lived in both for many years now. There is something about that story of constantly being thought of or referred to as not completely American no matter how much you adapt that gets to me. As a white person born in the U.S. I have never experienced that.

[Sky_Shoe]

This is a dumb anecdote, but nevertheless, I lived in Vancouver for 2.5 years and paid Canadian taxes. I was unable to get health care the one time I wanted it, something about my paperwork was out of order. I had SIN and everything, not sure what the issue was. In spite of this, I still have lots of love for Canada.

[altasnob]

The most conservative politician in Canada couldn't be a democrat

That's a very ignorant statement. BC is no more liberal than Washington or Oregon. Vancouver, Seattle, and Portland are very similar politically. BC does lots of non-democrat things like build oil pipelines to Vancouver, dump raw sewage in the Salish Sea for the last century (see Victoria), and string gondolas and trams up/across pristine wilderness (Sea to Sky, Peak to Peak).

There is no law that says a border cannot be partially opened. Canada could selectively chose to open the border in areas where they don't think opening the border would put Canadians in greater risk and that the economic benefit of opening the border outweighed the risk.

[ex-powderbroker]

yeah, imagine trump saying the pnw and new england can go to canada, but his base couldn’t.

i don’t see a selective opening happening either.

[BCMtnHound]

There is no law that says a border cannot be partially opened. Canada could selectively chose to open the border in areas where they don't think opening the border would put Canadians in greater risk and that the economic benefit of opening the border outweighed the risk.

FFS. The border is partially open. If you have a legitimate reason to be here for business considered essential to both our economies, then you can come here. You just can't come here because you want to get your rocks off on some discretionary pleasure trip. Is that hurting some sectors of our economy, sure. But having you knuckleheads travelling north willynilly has been determined by people far smarter than I that such activity would place a far greater burden on our society than a lost lift pass sale, or executive retreat ata lodge, or big game hunt, etc, that your entitled privileged class would be contributing.

And despite their various follies, I (and apparently most of my fellow citizens) still trust my country's leaders and politicians. Maybe you need to work harder to get some that you trust in your country's positions of power, and then we could talk about lifting some of those access restrictions.

[XXX-er]

That's a very ignorant statement. BC is no more liberal than Washington or Oregon. Vancouver, Seattle, and Portland are very similar politically. BC does lots of non-democrat things like build oil pipelines to Vancouver, dump raw sewage in the Salish Sea for the last century (see Victoria), and string gondolas and trams up/across pristine wilderness (Sea to Sky, Peak to Peak).

There is no law that says a border cannot be partially opened. Canada could selectively chose to open the border in areas where they don't think opening the border would put Canadians in greater risk and that the economic benefit of opening the border outweighed the risk.

the gallup poll state that in all the years they ran polls canada got more liberal like a northern european country while the USA just got more conservative but argue it if you want

there might be no law that states a border can not be partialy opened but the science sez it should stay closed hard to fathom but the scientists are driving the decisions on public health not the politicians and there is no economic befit that makes it worth openning the border

so when the border was opened to allow some necessary travel to AK some americans also went site seeing and got fines which didnt play well in the news btw

So nobody up here wants the border open so there is almost no political will to open any of the border

if you want to believe independent polls and since those polls things have just gotten worse down there from what we read in the news

[Angle Parking]

FFS. The border is partially open. If you have a legitimate reason to be here for business considered essential to both our economies, then you can come here. You just can't come here because you want to get your rocks off on some discretionary pleasure trip. Is that hurting some sectors of our economy, sure. But having you knuckleheads travelling north willynilly has been determined by people far smarter than I that such activity would place a far greater burden on our society than a lost lift pass sale, or executive retreat ata lodge, or big game hunt, etc, that your entitled privileged class would be contributing.

And that pain is definitely being felt up here in the Smithers region. Fishing lodges, whose clientele is largely comprised of Americans, are basically shut down. And that business brings in a ton of money to this region.
Despite that, I have yet to find a single person who would support the opening of the border. Not exactly empirical evidence I know, but maybe I feel confident in saying that the vast majority of people want the border to stay closed.

Question for the collective; Is Canadian support for the border remaining closed strictly related to Covid, or is it more multifaceted than that ie. Trump and the general sense of anarchy and chaos emanating from the US?