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  1. #1
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    COVID and the college student

    So many things to consider and discuss here.
    With so many universities either going to on-line only, in class only, hybrid studies with choice of on-line, in person, or both, parents and students have a lot to discuss and important decisions to be made.
    Also, international students are facing revocation of J-1 visa if university offers on-line only. More than 170 universities are suing Trump administration over whether these international students can stay in USA.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/u...ronavirus.html
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/educa...-students-ice/

    University of Miami, my son's school is offering a hybrid approach (i.e. students can choose whether to attend class on-line, in person, or both). However, if a student chooses to study on-line, then they cannot change their decision during the semester. Music students, and majors involving heavy lab courses need to study in person/hybrid.
    For the college student maggot: Are you returning to campus this fall?
    What are the benefits of returning to school when socialization/ parties/ fraternities/ sports are demonstrably inhibited?
    What do you think about the problems that internationals face? The upperclass (Soph. Junior, Senior) who rent apartments and can't get out of leases are especially burdened by the Trump administration's decision to revoke visas.
    “A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.”
    ― Milton Friedman

  2. #2
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    College without keg stands doesn’t make sense.
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
    Hunter S. Thompson

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    College without keg stands doesn’t make sense.
    Or sports.

    Let's do some livin'
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  4. #4
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    Scott Galloway is basically obsessed with this subject. This is a recent musing. There's more on his website where that came from.

    https://www.profgalloway.com/higher-ed-enough-already

    Let's do some livin'
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  5. #5
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    I'm a professor not a student. I'm starting a new job at a public institution, coming from a private liberal arts school. I'll be teaching all online at my new school. My old school is doing some hybrid model where all classes are supposedly both in person and online and first years are in person fall semester and upperclassmen in the spring, at least for part. It sounds like a nightmare logistically, but I think that they feel like they have to do it or they have no way to justify the tuition. My new school is cheap (for in state students) and is selling much more practical skill building rather than the "college experience" so they were much less conflicted about just saying "things will be online".

    As a professor, I strongly prefer in person, but I prefer online from the get go to potentially having to switch or trying to run the same class in person and online simultaneously.

  6. #6
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    It's a good piece with a valid perspective.
    Still, I think that while the kids all want to go back to their apartments/dorms in the fall, so that they can continue the college experience while studying on-line, many of the parents will think that it's best for the kid to study from closer to home. It is very interesting to me, because I have a son who will be studying at a multi-national hybrid system university 2600mi. away in Miami/Dade County. I keep wondering what it will be like down there come September-October
    “A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.”
    ― Milton Friedman

  7. #7
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    My sister was recently informed that my niece would not be allowed to live in the dorms at university of Chicago so they can space people out more.... due to the ‘rona.

    Now my sister is scrambling to find an apartment for my incredibly intelligent but not so street smart 19 year old niece.... on the south side... of Chicago. My sister was in tears on the phone more than once

    A heavily weighed option was to do next semester online while looking for a suitable place close to campus... and just move there whenever... middle of the semester or something....

  8. #8
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    A forced interruption of education in the US is not unique to the pandemic. WWI, WWII, Korea, (not so much Vietnam) for starters. Then there are Mormon missionaries, and in other countries there is (sort of) compulsory military or other national service (Israeli and Germany for example).
    As far as sports, what would Ted Williams stats have looked like without his service in WWII and Korea. (Are there any other pro athletes anyone can think of who served in two wars (doing promo work doesn't count.)

    I don't envy today's HS seniors and college students. College has become a much, much more stressful and much, much, much more expensive proposition than it was when I was that age. Much more competitive and unfortunately elite colleges in particular are a mandatory requirement for the upper echelons in many careers. I think I'd rather have a couple of Supreme Court justices who when to their lower tier state college and did law school at night. So I do get the stress the kids and their parents are under because of Covid. I'm just trying to put it in perspective.
    Last edited by old goat; 07-11-2020 at 02:19 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    A forced interruption of education in the US is not unique to the pandemic. WWI, WWII, Korea, (not so much Vietnam) for starters. Then there are Mormon missionaries, and in other countries there is (sort of) compulsory military or other national service (Israeli and Germany for example).
    As far as sports, what would Ted Williams stats have looked like without his service in WWII and Korea. (Are there any other pro athletes anyone can think of who served in two wars (doing promo work doesn't count.)

    I don't envy today's HS seniors and college students. College has become a much, much more stressful and much, much, much more expensive proposition than it was when I was that age. Much more competitive and unfortunately elite colleges in particular are a mandatory requirement for the upper echelons in many careers. I think I'd rather have a couple of Supreme Court justices who when to their lower tier state college and did law school at night. So I do get the stress the kids and their parents are under because of Covid. I'm just trying to put it in perspective.
    I had written out a response that got eaten by the ether, but I think you then summed it up well in your edit. The connection between college and career is just fundamentally different now than during the educational interruptions you mention (save the Mormons, who've institutionalized that interruption). A college diploma is more necessary for more careers and a much wider swathe of the population is attending college, and with less affluent students, the costs become a bigger risk than the upper class man who put off Yale for a few years to fight in World War 1.

    Nearly all the research I've seen suggests that a generation coming of age during a recession has longterm negative consequences for their average earnings, even long after the economy has recovered. Whether this would be enough for me to try to put off graduation until things looked better, I'm not sure. Probably not. But I would definitely consider doing a semester online at a community college and saving some money if I were going to an expensive private institution. Esp. if I were a sophomore or junior (in general, schindlerspiste's kid is in a different situation due to his specialty).

  10. #10
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    My stepson was all set to play soccer at a nearby community college for his freshmen year. He canceled that and will be enrolled in our local community college that doesn't have a soccer program. We enrolled him in club soccer again since he is still eligible. No idea how this is all going to go down, but it made zero sense for him to go to the other college if they probably won't even have a soccer season.

  11. #11
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    MIT is bringing back seniors and internationals to keep their visas alive. Most grad students will be allowed back (and are still there now...). I think they're pulling campus residences back to about 50% of capacity by making all rooms singles.

    I would imagine a lot of private colleges go under over this.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mangle View Post
    MIT is bringing back seniors and internationals to keep their visas alive. Most grad students will be allowed back (and are still there now...). I think they're pulling campus residences back to about 50% of capacity by making all rooms singles.

    I would imagine a lot of private colleges go under over this.
    And some MIT professors , possibly at the super high end of the curve, die.

    Let's do some livin'
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mangle View Post
    I would imagine a lot of private colleges go under over this.
    I was choosing my next job as this geared up. One of my reasons choosing the place I did was worry about the long term financial health of one of the other places from which I was certain I would be getting an offer. My old employer was part of a consortium with Hampshire, which semi-went under last year to much handwringing so sustainability was in the front of my mind already, but this crisis really amplified that.

  14. #14
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    Here is the letter from University of Miami regarding its Fall 2020 plan:
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    “A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.”
    ― Milton Friedman

  15. #15
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    A close friend is faculty and part of faculty senate at a public university system. They were weighing between a hybrid approach and all online. They chose all online with a few exceptions. He explained 2 main interrelated reason for the decision:
    -the available information and modeling about aerosol transmission would require for many in-sessions classes to have very few students in attendance
    -providing equitable education to all, including students that were not comfortable with physically attending any classes.

    Luckily, they didn’t have to consider the whole COVID aerosol eruptions in university public toilets in their decision making. Milk

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecked View Post
    My sister was recently informed that my niece would not be allowed to live in the dorms at university of Chicago so they can space people out more.... due to the ‘rona.

    Now my sister is scrambling to find an apartment for my incredibly intelligent but not so street smart 19 year old niece.... on the south side... of Chicago. My sister was in tears on the phone more than once

    A heavily weighed option was to do next semester online while looking for a suitable place close to campus... and just move there whenever... middle of the semester or something....
    Hyde park itself isn’t too bad during the day. But don’t stray too far. And be very aware at night. Kenwood, Garfield park and Woodlawn are spicy and just next door.

    I would favor getting her a car and an apartment on the north side.
    Particularly since social distancing and virtual classes are more likely.
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
    Hunter S. Thompson

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecked View Post
    My sister was recently informed that my niece would not be allowed to live in the dorms at university of Chicago so they can space people out more.... due to the ‘rona.

    Now my sister is scrambling to find an apartment for my incredibly intelligent but not so street smart 19 year old niece.... on the south side... of Chicago. My sister was in tears on the phone more than once

    A heavily weighed option was to do next semester online while looking for a suitable place close to campus... and just move there whenever... middle of the semester or something....
    Dang. That is stupid difficult. Lots of pressure in the area on housing already. Lived all over Hyde Park for 6 years, especially enjoyed living out east (Shoreland the last year it was a dorm and then the Flamingo). At the time n of 51st and s of 61st was no-go for living. But I understand those boundaries are a little more flexible now.

    Not sure if it is true now, but the U used to run their own private buses around the neighborhood (back when they had dorms spread out all over the place.) You could ride them for free and I'm sure they will be much safer transit wise than stepping foot on anything operated by the CTA. People used to choose apartments based on how close they could be to them.

    Damn do I miss a Saturday morning at Valois after a Friday night at the Falcon or Jimmy's.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusBrody View Post
    ...
    As a professor, I strongly prefer in person, but I prefer online from the get go to potentially having to switch or trying to run the same class in person and online simultaneously.
    My wife-in-2-weeks is currently adjuncting while finishing her degree at a private liberal arts university. The expectation this fall is that they will teach in person, but students have option to take all classes online or in person. So the delivery of material has to be split into 15 min chunks, to be recorded and uploaded to allow a-sync, remote learning. Oh, and all those logistics have to be done by the prof. And zero difference in pay or TA support....

    At this point, she's considering just throwing in the towel. It'd be nice to stay connected to the university before she goes on the job market. But it makes zero financial sense when should could make 3x in industry and safely work fully remote.

  19. #19
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    As a family of all masters and above degrees, we value education, I think it’s a tough call, but it is somewhat ironic, that
    A) many private and some public universities appear to be wholly reliant on being glorified slum lords to balance their expenses.
    B) many private and public universities appear to be be too reliant on exorbitant tuition that foreign born students dont seem to have a problem paying for, therefore masking their core mission as public university to educate the kids of their state.
    C) have too much hand wringing over sports , which to be honest while part of the experience, has grown to be the front and center attraction attraction while education has taken a back seat. I mean the highest paid public employees in most states are the football coaches.

  20. #20
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    Regarding internationals, I'm stunned and confused. I am not sure that this is 100% true, but I have been told by people who I trust that THE []_[] charges foreign nationals double tuition (~$60K/semester). Many of them occupy the priciest Coral Gable apartments, and Miami ain't cheap. There would be no way that they are getting a year for under $150K. For a non-scholarship American student living off campus, the yearly cost is close to $100K.
    The internationals who I have heard from are complaining that if the Trump administration blocks them from entering/staying in the country to study on-line, then they will be burdened with increased costs associated with cancelled leases, high airfares and difficulty going home. All I'm saying that it is hard to argue cost when they are paying double tuition, riding around in G-Wagons and 911s, paying $2000-$3000/mo. for a studio/1bdrm. apartment and eating 3x/wk. in South Beach.
    “A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.”
    ― Milton Friedman

  21. #21
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    I posted this in the other thread, but, should be here, too. The whole issue about foreign students is moot. Our borders are closed.

    We are now a plague state, stuck here.

    https://medium.com/@indica/the-plagu...a-53b20678a80e

    Let's do some livin'
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post

    I don't envy today's HS seniors and college students. College has become a much, much more stressful and much, much, much more expensive proposition than it was when I was that age. .
    Altho i think his dad was a prof My 65+ ski bro was talking about a year at U of A med school for < 2k while living at home
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    As a family of all masters and above degrees, we value education, I think it’s a tough call, but it is somewhat ironic, that
    A) many private and some public universities appear to be wholly reliant on being glorified slum lords to balance their expenses.
    B) many private and public universities appear to be be too reliant on exorbitant tuition that foreign born students dont seem to have a problem paying for, therefore masking their core mission as public university to educate the kids of their state.
    C) have too much hand wringing over sports , which to be honest while part of the experience, has grown to be the front and center attraction attraction while education has taken a back seat. I mean the highest paid public employees in most states are the football coaches.
    My former employer was completely reliant on international student tuition. The school was 28-30 percent international with almost 2/3 of that being Chinese students. Its on of the reasons they are so worried. Very few domestic students pay full tuition, so if the Chinese students don't come back, they're fucked. It seems like a lot of the decisions they have made have had an eye on this, but their best efforts might not matter given circumstances.

    My wife-in-2-weeks is currently adjuncting while finishing her degree at a private liberal arts university. The expectation this fall is that they will teach in person, but students have option to take all classes online or in person. So the delivery of material has to be split into 15 min chunks, to be recorded and uploaded to allow a-sync, remote learning. Oh, and all those logistics have to be done by the prof. And zero difference in pay or TA support....
    That's what they're doing at my old school. I feel lucky to be just be able to prep for the virtual version of class, rather than basically do the impossible of running virtual/in person versions of the same class simultaneously and equally.
    Last edited by MarcusBrody; 07-12-2020 at 11:28 AM.

  24. #24
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    Vibes to all the college kids and professors out there. What a shitty time.

    Expecting college kids to be on campus and not get together to do fun things is just laughable. The outbreaks on college campuses are going to be incredibly widespread.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    Dang. That is stupid difficult. Lots of pressure in the area on housing already. Lived all over Hyde Park for 6 years, especially enjoyed living out east (Shoreland the last year it was a dorm and then the Flamingo). At the time n of 51st and s of 61st was no-go for living. But I understand those boundaries are a little more flexible now.

    Not sure if it is true now, but the U used to run their own private buses around the neighborhood (back when they had dorms spread out all over the place.) You could ride them for free and I'm sure they will be much safer transit wise than stepping foot on anything operated by the CTA. People used to choose apartments based on how close they could be to them.

    Damn do I miss a Saturday morning at Valois after a Friday night at the Falcon or Jimmy's.
    She found one apt right on the main drag of businesses in Hyde park 55th? Maybe? I’ve only been there once...but that U shuttle stops just a few doors down... keeping their fingers crossed that one works out...

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