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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    Fairhaven
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    56
    I'm a lousy skier but I managed to get by with some Atomic Backland Carbons on Lib Tech UFO 115s. I was much happier when I added some Hawx Ultra XTD 130s to my boot quiver though. The same skis were way more fun.

    FWIW, I'm primarily a snowboarder and I splitboard in Backland Experts. I don't actually know how anyone skis in them, they are barely stiff enough to snowboard in.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    northern BC
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    this ^^ is kinda what i was getting at, that next class of boot up from the light boots

    the XTD, the technica ZGTP, Vulcan, Mastrale in the 1300-1400 gram range is gona weight a little more but be way more fun on the down
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
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    Mid-tomahawk
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    552
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    this ^^ is kinda what i was getting at, that next class of boot up from the light boots

    the XTD, the technica ZGTP, Vulcan, Mastrale in the 1300-1400 gram range is gona weight a little more but be way more fun on the down
    The GW soles on the XTD give you more options if you want to ski them in an alpine binding, so there's that. Makes them worse to scramble around in though... again, tradeoffs.

    ZGTPs would probably be my everyday touring boot if they fit my foot better. Alas...

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
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    44
    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    Sacrifice? Everything is a compromise in alpine touring because it's essentially two different sports, it just depends on what you can live with and/or afford.

    You won't sacrifice much in terms of skiing down - they are plenty stiff and while a heavier alpine boot will be damper, more progressive and more confident at the limit, it's heavier. You'll be carrying a few hundred more grams going up, and the walk mode is not as good as a dedicated light touring boot.
    Hey Greg, thanks for chiming in.

    I was hoping to replace my alpines with heavier touring boots that could do it all, but maybe I should just suck it up and get two pairs of boots. I'm not planning on doing more than side-country/day tours.

    I wasn't expecting to have to replace my alpine boots (was just going to add a touring option), but the slop and extra volume is becoming hard to ignore by the end of the day. A shop in SLC was nice enough to confirm the bad fit/size, and show me the light of boots meant for my foot size, like the XTD 130 and a few others.

    Thanks for all the help, as always.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
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    Mid-tomahawk
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    552
    My $0.02: if you're mostly skiing in a resort, and want a one boot quiver to do the occasional short sidecountry tour on, get something like a Cochise and suck up the fact that they're heavy and walk like shit. If your use case looks more like true 50:50 riding lifts vs skinning, then the ~1400g AT boot class is as good a compromise as you're going to get out of one pair of boots.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    646
    I have both the XTD130 and Cochise and think there’s a wide gap in skiing performance between them. The Cochise come somewhat close to proper alpine boots, but the XTD130s, although plenty stiff, don’t ski nearly as well for me.

    That said, the Cochise are too heavy and don't walk well enough to use for big touring days frequently, so I'm glad I have the XTD130s. I am looking into getting the 20/21 Mimic liner to replace the stock liners, as I think the ~100g weight tradeoff will be worth it for me if they add a lot of damping and better heel hold.
    Last edited by Skeeze; 07-09-2020 at 04:28 PM.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    44
    Thanks, this is all great information. So, it sounds like having a dedicated medium weight touring boot that walks well + plus my shifts/ non-tour Deathwishes would be great for touring days. Then, a non-pin, or a heavier pin alpine for my AT bindings and ON3Ps/Wildcats. Day's where I want my DW and touring options I'd just bring two sets of boots skis to cover everything.

    Or just make compromises on both touring and downhill with a heavier boot like the Cochise.

    Looks like i'll be puckering up for a big boot bill this year

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    5,343

    Light boots VS Fat Skis

    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    this ^^ is kinda what i was getting at, that next class of boot up from the light boots

    the XTD, the technica ZGTP, Vulcan, Mastrale in the 1300-1400 gram range is gona weight a little more but be way more fun on the down
    yeah. I’m a convert to this philosophy. the ZGTP gives up very little to a Travers/Backland/F1 tier boot in walk mode (fully unbuckled anyway), not a huge amount in weight, and they ski insanely, incomparably better. I wouldn’t skimo race in them probably (and I do skimo race) but I didn’t put on my Travers or my Backlands once after my first day on the ZGTP. They are comparatively annoying to transition in, that’s all. I’m still a “don’t take your pack off” kinda ski tourer, helmet always on + shades, all that... but man the ZGTP won me over quick. Even just pushing my 1200g weight weenie sticks it’s like a whole new pair of skis with that boot. I got some skis in the middle of the range, but then I also have the 1900g get-shit-done touring skis, and I still have plenty of boot to spare even going 40+ mph in backcountry snow.

    You can pretty much have your cake and eat it too.

    ETA: I feel like we group boots by weight class (~1kg boots, ~1400g boots, etc) but really IMO what differentiates classes of touring boots is the resistance/stride/etc of the walk mode. The weight is comparatively not a big deal. Other boots in the "1400g class" I've tried I think flat out suck going up, like the Maestrale (white/orange vintages anyway), the Cochise lineup, and so on. My old green TLT6Ps didn't weigh much more than my Fischer Travers, but the Travers walked a lot better. The ZGTP is imo closer to the Travers than the TLT6 with the tongue in, at least if my fuzzy memory serves, been a while since I had the Dynafits.

    Anyway: it's easy to compare the Hawx with the ZGTP as they're both relatively new, similar weight and flex, but when I put on the Hawx I felt the tour mode was in that "heavy beef boot" class like a Maestrale etc, while I feel the ZGTP is much closer to the 1kg boots. You have the weight, but honestly boots make the biggest performance difference of anything in your kit... having done both, I'd much rather ski a 1200g ski with ZGTPs than a 1500g ski with the Travers. Whatever you wanna get I'd put the boots on and walk around the store if you can... walk modes vary a lot, and to me that makes WAY more difference than the weight. An extra 15% resistance per stride, even in a lighter boot, will make you slower. YMMV etc

    Quote Originally Posted by AZskibum View Post
    Or just make compromises on both touring and downhill with a heavier boot like the Cochise.
    You can absolutely just muscle up and do this too... snowaddict91 does this with one of the Cochise boots that has tech inserts in alpine toes, and he's what I would call "fast" going up, the dirty bastard.

  9. #34
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    Sep 2009
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    PNW
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    5,441
    Quote Originally Posted by mall walker View Post
    yeah. I’m a convert to this philosophy. the ZGTP gives up very little to a Travers/Backland/F1 tier boot in walk mode (fully unbuckled anyway), not a huge amount in weight, and they ski insanely, incomparably better. I wouldn’t skimo race in them probably (and I do skimo race) but I didn’t put on my Travers or my Backlands once after my first day on the ZGTP. They are comparatively annoying to transition in, that’s all. I’m still a “don’t take your pack off” kinda ski tourer, helmet always on + shades, all that... but man the ZGTP won me over quick. Even just pushing my 1200g weight weenie sticks it’s like a whole new pair of skis with that boot. I got some skis in the middle of the range, but then I also have the 1900g get-shit-done touring skis, and I still have plenty of boot to spare even going 40+ mph in backcountry snow.

    You can pretty much have your cake and eat it too.
    It's amusing to see all the ways one can come to the same conclusion.

    My first set of Dynafits was mounted to 2500g/ski ON3P Great Scotts (Cease & Desists)... LOL those were fucking burly skis. Ten years ago, damn. But I toured all over the place with those and then even more with FT12s on 2300g or whatever 191 cm BillyGoats, for years. While I've been bringing the weight of the bindings and especially the skis down over the years, the boots haven't really changed that much because I could never quite see myself able to ski in a fun way with flimsy boots. Tried a few times with tlt6 etc but it wasn't as fun despite the walkability. Of course the walk modes and plastics have gotten way better, making fit and efficiency way better... but my newish zeroG's are only a little lighter and tour only a little better than Vulcans which came out in fkn 2012!

    There's absolutely a sweet spot, IMHO, for freetouring pow and corn, balancing weight with skiability... but that depends on the forces one can exert on the gear which is of course subjective and needs to be experienced to really know... but to get to the point of all this horseshit... boot flex should only be a few points off of your preferred ride, same number for both inbounds and out, and you can drive whatever ski you want. In my most humble drunken opinion. Now the light boots can do it well.
    Last edited by Norseman; 07-09-2020 at 07:05 PM.
    life ain't guaranteed, love your people while you can

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    79
    For long, fat skis (for me that's a 184 cm Voile Supercharger) I like middle-of-the-road weight in boots. Did Dynafit Mercury, then Neo for a while. New boots are Salomon Mtn Explore. Plenty of beef for me. I have Backland Carbons that I use on my volcano skis, which are slightly shorter than I'd use inbounds Wayback 96. Some people really seem to do fine with light boots and bigger skis. It's a compromise---I don't think those folks are doing particularly aggressive skiing. I can ski plenty aggressively in the Mtn Explore, which many folks will tell you are "not stiff enough". For a long time I just used one pair of boots (Mercury, Neo) for everything, and that was fine. But I do enough big days on our local volcanoes that the ultralight Backland is a big advantage. It also means my other boots last longer, because they aren't getting all the wear and tear of walking on the choss. It all depends on what you're doing. Start with one boot that can do it all would be my opinion.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,890
    as an aside....wuz thinkin'...go ahead and flame away if this sound ridiculous...

    Duo weight/purpose ski touring boot.

    Using the same clog that is engineered to provide robust support, have the user option of re/re-ing different rear cuffs. One cuff lighter/lower for the big mile days, the other cuff heavier, taller, stiffer, potentially more buckles for the big line/big ski/hard charging/hill days.

    Use two different liner systems to synergize with intended use. Lighter, lower, more flexible liner for use with the lighter shell setup. Heavier, taller, stiffer liner for the hard charging shell orientation.

    Quick attach/remove ankle rivets system for real world user friendliness.

    This idea kinda harkens back to the old pre scarpa terminator days where we used to beef up flexi, low cut, double leather tele boots by clamping on some lange dh boot rear cuffs and a bit of extra liner material. Worked pretty damn awesomely, iirc. Stock light/low boot for easy skiing, long tour, good snow days. Boot with beef mod for pounding zipperline bumps and attacking bad snow at speed.
    Master of mediocrity.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Alpental
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    5,811
    ....so 2 different boots then.
    Move upside and let the man go through...

  13. #38
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    Sep 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mofro261 View Post
    ....so 2 different boots then.
    at half the price...for the non dentists among us.
    Master of mediocrity.

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    Alpental
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    Quote Originally Posted by swissiphic View Post
    at half the price...for the non dentists among us.
    not seeing a half price option when you need 2 different liners and 2 different cuffs.
    Move upside and let the man go through...

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
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    1,890
    Quote Originally Posted by Mofro261 View Post
    not seeing a half price option when you need 2 different liners and 2 different cuffs.
    Pricing based on unrealistic, dreamworld delusions of grandeur.

    The two in one boot sales completely dominate the market allowing the manufacturer to sell 'em at a lower price...profits based on volume.
    Master of mediocrity.

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern BC
    Posts
    20,619
    IME trying to make one boot do 2 things, when i had the swapable AT/DIN soles on garmonts boots I really didn't want to change them more than once a season and in the end i have AT & alpine boots
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Mid-tomahawk
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    552
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    IME trying to make one boot do 2 things, when i had the swapable AT/DIN soles on garmonts boots I really didn't want to change them more than once a season and in the end i have AT & alpine boots
    Yeah, I'm too lazy for that. I still have a pair of Scarpa Freedom RSs that'll I'll take on trips sometimes if I really don't want to haul two pairs of boots around, but I've got dedicated AT and alpine boots too.

  18. #43
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    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern BC
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    well in real life the swap just didn't seem to happen very much, I will say that at the time I didnt know which way i was going in skiing so it was good to have the possibilities but once i figured out I was going to tour a lot more I bought mercurys which were a great choice

    which brings up another point that a compromise is rarely better than the real thing


    along the same lines I just don't get the inserts in every pair of skis thing

    edit: a bit of a troll, i do understand inserts I just don't need them
    Last edited by XXX-er; 07-11-2020 at 09:51 AM.
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    西 雅 圖
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    3,515
    Quote Originally Posted by swissiphic View Post
    The two in one boot sales completely dominate the market allowing the manufacturer to sell 'em at a lower price...profits based on volume.
    . . . still waiting for the prices to come down on crossover boots . . .

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    534
    Dammit mallwalker, your love of the Fischer travers carbon got me to pick up a pair last season for spring skiing (I use Lange xt freetours for winter) and now I kind of wish I had just paid more and got the zgtps, ha.

    I do love the travers for Shasta and the east side but can’t wrap my head around skiing heavy wet Sierra pow with them. And it would be nice to have one boot for all touring. Too bad boots have zero resale value! I do love both pairs, the technicas sound pretty great though.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    西 雅 圖
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    3,515
    Quote Originally Posted by jorion View Post
    I do love both pairs, the technicas sound pretty great though.
    Three boot quiver.

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    7B Idaho
    Posts
    365
    I spent all winter touring in La Sportiva Spitfire 2.1 boots on Dynafit Comforts and 192 GPOs. I can’t recall the weight class of the boot because honestly the “weight classes” are determined with tiny little boots as a reference; I wear a 31.5 shell and both of Sportiva touring boots (spitfire 2.1 and sideral 2.0) are around 1500-1600g depending on liner, power strap etc. I consider these light and they have been an absolute game changer for me. Regardless, I expected the GPOs to only be for deeper or special days and mostly use my lighter 192 Praxis Yeti, but the GPO are just so ridiculously fun I used them the whole time until spring touring. I don’t “charge” in these boots or maybe ever, but they push the 192cm 116mm waist just fine. On icy days they suck, but anything sucks on icy days, maybe not as bad but nothing is really fun.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  23. #48

    r

    German writer Hesse said, "Tourism is love". Since it is an "encounter", it is naturally an encounter rather than a request. Love encounters in travel, unfamiliar places, unfamiliar people are more romantic in the background of beautiful scenery. Gorgeous, fantasy and confusing, people are never satisfied; encounter, an encounter of wind and snow, a moment of sudden heart.

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    WA
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    881
    This topic has spawned some of the funniest replies ever in TGR's past (far from the first time it's come up). No idea who gets credit, but whoever replied to one of the old threads by saying "I mounted dynafits to the search function and it worked really great" deserves a beer (along with the always-good warnings of instant death).

    tons of good stuff in this thread, but would just add that there's a ton of subjectivity in "skiing well," so be sure that your definition of "skiing well" is the same as the person saying their light boots ski amazing. Not uncommon to hear how awesome the slippers are during the up, only to see what happens on the down contradict that statement.

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