$600 a week

[dunfree]

I don't think there was anything casual about it.

Guy was working his ass off.

Makes pushing a mouse around and writing html or peering into toilet flanges seem pretty insignificant... huh?

nothing like the the desk jockey “real work” flex because they observed underpaid illegals working while browsing tgr

[schuss]

Oh look, another bullshit talking point that isn't true (staying home instead of working)
https://www.businessinsider.com/600-...rk-yale-2020-7

[PNWbrit]

nothing like the the desk jockey “real work” flex because they observed underpaid illegals working while browsing tgr

He was accompanying his minor son who was studying in the US on an F-1 visa which entitles the father to an extended B-2 visitor visa for the duration of the F-1.

Nice assumption though.

He may. or may not have been working illegally. Not that it matters.

[GoldMember]

Yes nice article, but what it (and you) don't mention is that it's actually a pretty bum deal to trade your youth and health for a paycheck in an industry that chews young healthy people up and spits them out in great numbers. Your article mentions trying to lure people in with the promise of overtime, when in fact it's overtime that hurts people more than just 40 hours do . . . but your article doesn't mention that, just says it's too expensive (in dollars, not broken bones and ruined joints and tendons).

Yes, it's possible to escape severe life-altering injuries when working construction, especially if you can quickly transition into someone who does the hiring and firing and supervising and fretting about why there aren't enough people to do the work.

And it's a cultural thing as well as a hard-on-the-body-because-of-heavy-lifting-and-impact thing. I know many multi-generational carpenter/construction people whose family portraits would be a study in morbid obesity and the adaptation of suspenders and abuse of laborers to enable them to continue to work (and they do pretty good work).

The technological innovations your article sings the praises of have little to do with forming walls or tying steel or pushing concrete around, let alone roofing in Spokane in mid-summer. I grew up doing all manner of manual labor and enjoyed a great deal of it, and still do it for fun as a volunteer when I can, but I'm one of the few lucky ones in my peer group--the rest are crippled and dying and a bit peeved about their life choices.

Paying out-of-work people 600 a week could enable them to break out of a life that's hurting them and break into something better, whether from moving elsewhere or quitting the lousy job they've had to have to have anything. Giving people decent access to healthcare and a modicum of cash . . . it might not create a vast labor pool of manual laborers, but it might improve the lives of a whole ton of people.

This endless Reagan-era Welfare Queen whinging from the well-enough-off whose worst fear that someone, somewhere might be having a good time is hard to stomach. We've heard it all before.

And where I live, I'm seeing no dearth of people who work hard on construction jobs every day. They're mostly Latino crews, with Latino bosses, working for companies not owned (yet) by Latinos, but they make lots of money, build lots of things very well, and unlike most of the Gringo crews I've worked on, they all get along and don't whine and complain all day.

So it's hard to understand just why you whine so much . . .

I read this last night and was thinking of all I could say in rebuttal but it gets too long and complicated so I won't respond directly to it or the other succeeding posts of others that have all sorts of their own personal impressions that don't fit our situation at all.

Instead, I will say what I see in our employees. First, they seem to really like their jobs. They hate being on unemployment, they don't want to work inside, they view themselves as having selected a career, they are roofing professionals with varying levels of skill that they're working to improve on regularly. We do very little hot roofing and, instead, do about 90% single-ply membrane. We don't shingle or do residential and we take advantage of as much tooling as we can in order to alleviate the physical strain as much as practical.

On the injury or physical wear side of things, our EMR is 0.6000, the best you can get. Our crew has been here, for the most part except for the latest hires, for 12 years or more. They are getting older without physical failings but, as noted, they are getting older. We have two guys over 62 still working who want to continue to work. We have several in their 50's, same thing. Of the crew of 15, we have one woman lead, one black (new hire, good guy, former semi-pro football player), and one El Salvador native who's been in the U.S. for over 30 years and, just last year, became a naturalized U.S. citizen. Nearly the entire crew and office staff attended at his invitation. We have a fairly small but close family, here.

With that stated, I won't get into all the other seemingly elitist comments of those who put their noses in the air as they look down on roofers. Our people are professionals, we carry certifications reserved for less than 1% of roofing contractors in the country, and it's due to the work these people do. I would never look down on them and instead seek their help and advice on issues when they become thorny.

This is my last comment in this thread as going further only follows the chase down the aforementioned rabbit hole and I'm not going there. Just remember, as much as you want to tell people how bad a job roofing is, someone has to do it and we happen to have a pretty good group that are willing and want to. Be thankful there are people out there willing to do the dirty jobs.

[huckbucket]

Your Mexicans use hot mops?

[riser4]

I'm a fan.

To further clarify my stance on country: Hank 1 and Hank 3 get to keep playing, but I pull the plug on Hank 2.

Pretty much.

[spanghew]

I read this last night and was thinking of all I could say in rebuttal but it gets too long and complicated so I won't respond directly to it or the other succeeding posts of others that have all sorts of their own personal impressions that don't fit our situation at all.

Instead, I will say what I see in our employees. First, they seem to really like their jobs. They hate being on unemployment, they don't want to work inside, they view themselves as having selected a career, they are roofing professionals with varying levels of skill that they're working to improve on regularly. We do very little hot roofing and, instead, do about 90% single-ply membrane. We don't shingle or do residential and we take advantage of as much tooling as we can in order to alleviate the physical strain as much as practical.

On the injury or physical wear side of things, our EMR is 0.6000, the best you can get. Our crew has been here, for the most part except for the latest hires, for 12 years or more. They are getting older without physical failings but, as noted, they are getting older. We have two guys over 62 still working who want to continue to work. We have several in their 50's, same thing. Of the crew of 15, we have one woman lead, one black (new hire, good guy, former semi-pro football player), and one El Salvador native who's been in the U.S. for over 30 years and, just last year, became a naturalized U.S. citizen. Nearly the entire crew and office staff attended at his invitation. We have a fairly small but close family, here.

With that stated, I won't get into all the other seemingly elitist comments of those who put their noses in the air as they look down on roofers. Our people are professionals, we carry certifications reserved for less than 1% of roofing contractors in the country, and it's due to the work these people do. I would never look down on them and instead seek their help and advice on issues when they become thorny.

This is my last comment in this thread as going further only follows the chase down the aforementioned rabbit hole and I'm not going there. Just remember, as much as you want to tell people how bad a job roofing is, someone has to do it and we happen to have a pretty good group that are willing and want to. Be thankful there are people out there willing to do the dirty jobs.

Good god, you've got yourself in a real snit. Elitist? Give me a break. I go to work every day in the construction industry, and have for most of my long life. It sounds like your roofers are good happy workers: fantastic. But somehow you translate your troubles finding new workers with some kind of moral weakness in the youthful populace, almost certainly brought on by getting $600 a month. This exorbitant sum somehow overcomes their natural desire to swim in the Covid pond with a bunch of Trump-voting contractors with their noses hanging out of their masks, high in the air while getting hazed for being the new guy.

And perhaps my exaggeration is unfair (though I doubt it, and I don't care regardless: it describes most of the jobs I've worked on all over the USA for the past 40-odd years, so if you're special, then major kudos). I just believe the world won't stop if another warehouse has to wait a few months to be built, and people can learn to sit still while someone smarter than most of us figures out how to actually deal with this thing instead of kicking and squealing like a petulant child at the inconvenience of it all.

As far as Hank goes, Hank 1 is the only worthwhile one I know of . . . but I guess I didn't know there was a Hank 3. I know Hank 2 did a self-arrest with his sidearm while on a death slide in the mountains somewhere . . .

[Skidog]

Good god, you've got yourself in a real snit. Elitist? Give me a break. I go to work every day in the construction industry, and have for most of my long life. It sounds like your roofers are good happy workers: fantastic. But somehow you translate your troubles finding new workers with some kind of moral weakness in the youthful populace, almost certainly brought on by getting $600 a month. This exorbitant sum somehow overcomes their natural desire to swim in the Covid pond with a bunch of Trump-voting contractors with their noses hanging out of their masks, high in the air while getting hazed for being the new guy.

And perhaps my exaggeration is unfair (though I doubt it, and I don't care regardless: it describes most of the jobs I've worked on all over the USA for the past 40-odd years, so if you're special, then major kudos). I just believe the world won't stop if another warehouse has to wait a few months to be built, and people can learn to sit still while someone smarter than most of us figures out how to actually deal with this thing instead of kicking and squealing like a petulant child at the inconvenience of it all.

As far as Hank goes, Hank 1 is the only worthwhile one I know of . . . but I guess I didn't know there was a Hank 3. I know Hank 2 did a self-arrest with his sidearm while on a death slide in the mountains somewhere . . .

Wow....just wow....pretty narrow view and appears to be spoken by someone who doesn't have to worry too much about paying the bills.
I know my brother in law isn't psyched about working and travelling all over the damned country, but he's the breadwinner and if the job needs to be done and he doesn't do it someone else will. Then he potentially loses millions in business, his workers (paycheck to paycheck type) lose jobs, and down it goes.


Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app

[glademaster]

Good god, you've got yourself in a real snit. Elitist? Give me a break. I go to work every day in the construction industry, and have for most of my long life. It sounds like your roofers are good happy workers: fantastic. But somehow you translate your troubles finding new workers with some kind of moral weakness in the youthful populace, almost certainly brought on by getting $600 a month. This exorbitant sum somehow overcomes their natural desire to swim in the Covid pond with a bunch of Trump-voting contractors with their noses hanging out of their masks, high in the air while getting hazed for being the new guy.

And perhaps my exaggeration is unfair (though I doubt it, and I don't care regardless: it describes most of the jobs I've worked on all over the USA for the past 40-odd years, so if you're special, then major kudos). I just believe the world won't stop if another warehouse has to wait a few months to be built, and people can learn to sit still while someone smarter than most of us figures out how to actually deal with this thing instead of kicking and squealing like a petulant child at the inconvenience of it all.

As far as Hank goes, Hank 1 is the only worthwhile one I know of . . . but I guess I didn't know there was a Hank 3. I know Hank 2 did a self-arrest with his sidearm while on a death slide in the mountains somewhere . . .

Preach, Brother!

[spanghew]

Wow....just wow....pretty narrow view and appears to be spoken by someone who doesn't have to worry too much about paying the bills.
I know my brother in law isn't psyched about working and travelling all over the damned country, but he's the breadwinner and if the job needs to be done and he doesn't do it someone else will. Then he potentially loses millions in business, his workers (paycheck to paycheck type) lose jobs, and down it goes.


Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app

Hardly. One job shut down last week, the replacement job ended today; nothering is on the horizon till April. And no, I don't have money enough to pay the bills till then. I lived ten years in a motor home on a vacant lot, so if that's not worrying about the bills, I guess I don't need to worry, though I don't have the moror home any more.

So no, you and the other guy don't read well at all. I'm arguing for people without work getting a decent amount of money to get them through. Ted Cruz sneers that some waitress will get that much money and clearly she doesn't deserve it; McConnell says 200 is more than enough for anybody, and I believe the poster I've been responding to echoed that. He comes off like a fatcat (or even a relatively slender one) with a business who's beginning to feel the pain, so he argues that all those prospective workers should be starved until it's worth it to come and work for him.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I have that wrong, though.

[Skidog]

Hardly. One job shut down last week, the replacement job ended today; nothering is on the horizon till April. And no, I don't have money enough to pay the bills till then. I lived ten years in a motor home on a vacant lot, so if that's not worrying about the bills, I guess I don't need to worry, though I don't have the moror home any more.

So no, you and the other guy don't read well at all. I'm arguing for people without work getting a decent amount of money to get them through. Ted Cruz sneers that some waitress will get that much money and clearly she doesn't deserve it; McConnell says 200 is more than enough for anybody, and I believe the poster I've been responding to echoed that. He comes off like a fatcat (or even a relatively slender one) with a business who's beginning to feel the pain, so he argues that all those prospective workers should be starved until it's worth it to come and work for him.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I have that wrong, though.

My apologies then. My brother in law pays his crew very well. Heck he has to. Since march it's been 2 stores in Florida, now he's in Nebraska, and then to Vegas. They drive to each destination. The crew typically stays until job is done (expenses paid) and he flys back every couple weeks.

Now if he lost one of those guys? Well it wouldn't be easy to replace them.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app

[spanghew]

My apologies then. My brother in law pays his crew very well. Heck he has to. Since march it's been 2 stores in Florida, now he's in Nebraska, and then to Vegas. They drive to each destination. The crew typically stays until job is done (expenses paid) and he flys back every couple weeks.

Now if he lost one of those guys? Well it wouldn't be easy to replace them.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app

If I still lived in WW, I'd be trying to get on the Spokane roofing crew myself. Summer in Spokane on a roof is better than Mammoth in a snowstorm, which is the last time I did any roofing high enough to scare me. I think everyone should be able to handle tools and understand construction and drive equipment . . . but if I had a kid, I wouldn't be pushing him or her to be in construction forever . . .

[fastfred]

holy fuck
there are two identical t shirts on the rack at target one was made in some third world county the other shirt was made in america but costs $20.00 more what one are you going to buy? cheap mother fucking americans will always go with the cheaper one, the pretend to care about jobs and workers wages and all that shit but at the end of the day with there mouse they are going to always click on the lowest cost product

so please go suck your own dick if your so smart got an mba and understand supply and demand and the cost the market will bare
please go fuck yourself unless you have written paychecks for years on end have the irs suck money out of your account twice a month, throw down for UE, insurance, and wake up every morning knowing that a bunch of people show up and work for you and expect a check like clock work, run your mouth all day long like you know how it is but you don't know shit

that pussy summer you did manual labor, that's cute but unless you've busted your ass bent over for decades you don't know shit, so don't act like you know what manual labor is like

[Toadman]

holy fuck
there are two identical t shirts on the rack at target one was made in some third world county the other shirt was made in america but costs $20.00 more what one are you going to buy? cheap mother fucking americans will always go with the cheaper one, the pretend to care about jobs and workers wages and all that shit but at the end of the day with there mouse they are going to always click on the lowest cost product

so please go suck your own dick if your so smart got an mba and understand supply and demand and the cost the market will bare
please go fuck yourself unless you have written paychecks for years on end have the irs suck money out of your account twice a month, throw down for UE, insurance, and wake up every morning knowing that a bunch of people show up and work for you and expect a check like clock work, run your mouth all day long like you know how it is but you don't know shit

that pussy summer you did manual labor, that's cute but unless you've busted your ass bent over for decades you don't know shit, so don't act like you know what manual labor is like

How can the two t-shirts be identical? I'm thinking some foreign country stole American t-shirt technology.

And I have no clue what manual labor is like. Sounds intense though.

[MakersTeleMark]

And I have no clue what manual labor is like. Sounds intense though.

We have a fisting thread. Check it out.

[spanghew]

We have a fisting thread. Check it out.

the little guy seems to be all in a lather

[GoldMember]

Good god, you've got yourself in a real snit. Elitist? Give me a break. I go to work every day in the construction industry, and have for most of my long life. It sounds like your roofers are good happy workers: fantastic. But somehow you translate your troubles finding new workers with some kind of moral weakness in the youthful populace, almost certainly brought on by getting $600 a month. This exorbitant sum somehow overcomes their natural desire to swim in the Covid pond with a bunch of Trump-voting contractors with their noses hanging out of their masks, high in the air while getting hazed for being the new guy.

And perhaps my exaggeration is unfair (though I doubt it, and I don't care regardless: it describes most of the jobs I've worked on all over the USA for the past 40-odd years, so if you're special, then major kudos). I just believe the world won't stop if another warehouse has to wait a few months to be built, and people can learn to sit still while someone smarter than most of us figures out how to actually deal with this thing instead of kicking and squealing like a petulant child at the inconvenience of it all.

As far as Hank goes, Hank 1 is the only worthwhile one I know of . . . but I guess I didn't know there was a Hank 3. I know Hank 2 did a self-arrest with his sidearm while on a death slide in the mountains somewhere . . .

Read it again. I didn't call you an elitist, I was speaking to the elitist comments in general that look down on construction work or any other physical work for that matter. It's with educators, office workers, baristas, parents, you name it. Journeymen craftsmen used to be considered pretty noble professions. Generational carpenters, for example, is a good example of what used to be considered good family traditional skills. You even mentioned that yourself. Now, these folks are assumed to be druggers and near-criminals, otherwise they'd be working good jobs, not some menial task as roofing.

This isn't about you but about those who downgrade trade workers and roofers in particular. I was only stating what I see in our crew. As for the $200 per week the Rs are proposing, that's just as bad as the overpayment (in some cases) of the $600. In my opinion, and it's just an opinion, it should be leveled so people make what they made working. No more, no less. Simple. And no, I don't support Trump, never have.

As for the rest of your post(s), I didn't bother reading them as you really know nothing of me nor me you. But I will tell you I started in the construction industry in 1977 and have been engaged in this worker shortage issue since prior to 2000. It's a real problem and part of that is caused by people harping about how bad the work is. It really isn't all as people stereotype it to be. Am I a fatcat? I've done alright but it was through a lot of hard work and time spent doing what was necessary to get there. Hard work. There's a theme, here.

[wooley12]

Hard work doesn't pay a living wage. Working from home or owning a business that earns you north of $150k is not hard work. Hard work is digging coal to die broke. Just my opinion.

[GoldMember]

Hard work doesn't pay a living wage. Working from home or owning a business that earns you north of $150k is not hard work. Hard work is digging coal to die broke. Just my opinion.

True. But the question is in regard to what steps there may be to get to the point where you can sit at home, making $150k (which doesn't describe me). It's not something you walk into right out of high school, unless you happen to have been born into the 'right' family. I wasn't.

[wooley12]

Boo hoo. Sorry. Not for you. You like what you do. I'm sorry that some single mom with two kids not having to work right now to feed and clothes them offends people.

Fwiw, I worked for six years as the only Anglo on a landscape crew. I've seen a few things so I know a few things. Go check your air miles.

[Adolf Allerbush]

True. But the question is in regard to what steps there may be to get to the point where you can sit at home, making $150k (which doesn't describe me). It's not something you walk into right out of high school, unless you happen to have been born into the 'right' family. I wasn't.

I don't know your business...but going forward could you charge more for the work you do in order to pay more and negate the issues you are running into with the $600/week UE? If the labor market is as thin as you indicate there must not be much, if any, competition. If there is a lot of competition, how are they able to find people willing to work but you are not?

[GoldMember]

I don't know your business...but going forward could you charge more for the work you do in order to pay more and negate the issues you are running into with the $600/week UE? If the labor market is as thin as you indicate there must not be much, if any, competition. If there is a lot of competition, how are they able to find people willing to work but you are not?

Well, it is a competitive business with contracts already in place with fixed prices. The entire construction industry is short of people so we're not the only ones looking. And we've continued to give raises and pay competitively. In the longer view, pay will continue to grow but the near term situation is what's at issue.

[MakersTeleMark]

I'm just saying, fisting is hard ass work bruh.

[Conundrum]

Cash under the table, “Independent and sub contractors” that “carry their own insurance”, under bidding and hoping on change order margin, being big enough to lose money on jobs to put little guys out of biz, skirting OSHA, and blowing bids not understanding local licensing and taxes. That’s what goldmember is working against. The fact that he has a long term crew in roofing says something. The long term crew says he’s doing it right by industry standards and by his employees. There are two types of roofing contractors-those with a crew and those subbing out labor. Hire the guys with their own crew that have been doing it for a bit even if they are not the lowest bid.

Chat all you want about unemployment and politics but I’m never going to second guess a roofing contractor and his “ivory tower” with long term employees that actually do labor.

And yes, a .6 ex mod on his work comp says there is no roofer and pretty much any other business owner in any industry with less injury than him. He’s either doing things really right or he’s dirty as fuck and I’m guessing the former.

[dunfree]

Cash under the table, “Independent and sub contractors” that “carry their own insurance”, under bidding and hoping on change order margin, being big enough to lose money on jobs to put little guys out of biz, skirting OSHA, and blowing bids not understanding local licensing and taxes. That’s what goldmember is working against. The fact that he has a long term crew in roofing says something. The long term crew says he’s doing it right by industry standards. There are two types of roofing contractors-those with a crew and those subbing out labor. Hire the guys with their own crew that have been doing it for a bit even if they are not the lowest bid..

This paragraph points out all the reasons workers might want to avoid the roofing industry and construction in general. So does this one

ETA: Actually, that was part of the beginning of the problem as it exists today. Lots of those who lost their jobs in the Great Recession went into other fields and moved out of this industry. That exacerbated what had been the prior shortage of workers. It's a compounding issue.

being the best employer in a shitty field is tough, especially if you are in a place like manual labor where there may not be extensive social networks.