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  1. #1
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    Tele bindings on Black Crows Navis Freebird?

    I have a pair of Navis Freebird that I would like to use for Telemark. Now I read that Black Crows says that warranty is void if I mount their Freebird skis with Telemark because of the risk of ripping the top sheet of. The skis are old so I don't have any warranty anyway.

    Is this a problem anyone of you have seen or heard of for real or just something they say to be sure? Maybe it's only true to some very light Freebirds? (the Navis isn't exactly ultralight). Sure there I've seen many ripped screws and topsheets, especially when people use very active tele bindings, but I don't think all these skis was advised as non Telemark.

    I like my bindings to be low active, and since I started using slow curing epoxy for mounting I never ripped out a binding.

  2. #2
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    "Low active" means what, Switchbacks?
    What's your style? Huck monster? Low and go? Hard snow carver?
    If you weigh over 150 kgs, yer hosed.

  3. #3
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    TeleSwede said:
    Today 09:54 PM
    I'm about 85 kg, ski quite hard but no park. This last winters I've been on Völkl Kuro (132 mm heavyweight) mounted with Rottefella Freedom on the loosest setting with original springs. TX Pro boots. Thinking I'll use Freedom again or 22 Lynx on the Crows. I haven't ripped bindings for ages, ripped edges and bent skis yes, but no ripouts. Have had Gotmas and JJs.

  4. #4
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    If it was possible I'd adjust my Freedoms to feel like switchbacks... I like it loose. I have switchbacks on my light setup, but the 75 mm boots are almost toast, so i would prefer using Scarpa TX for the Crows.

  5. #5
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    I'm seeing that the new version at least has a titanal mounting plate, not sure if that's the case with yours? If it were me, I would use epoxy and go for it. Although I have heard of several pullouts somewhere in a past thread with tele bindings on Black Crows, maybe those didn't have a reinforcement plate, bad mount, 4 hole BD 01s, who knows..... I'm just saying what I would do, not what you should do. Safety 3rd!!

    edit: I just saw your post about Freedoms. Those things have a gazillion screws per binding. I don't think those are going to rip out anytime soon once epoxied in.

  6. #6
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    Thanks. I think I go for it. The worst thing that could happen breakage in the middle of nowhere... Done that with old Voilé s. Maybe Rottefella 6 hole pattern is more safe than 22 Lynx 6 hole... I have to dig into that. Any thoughts about that, or Freebird+Tele in general, is appreciated.

  7. #7
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    Feb 2009
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    I managed to rip a Rotefella Freedom out of a Volkl BMT 109, although it did take me 3 seasons (over 50 days) to do it. However I don't think many skis have as weak a binding mount as those Volkls do and judging by the corrosion on the screws and the state of the wood core there had been a bit of water penetration for a while (not using that type of epoxy again!). I suspect you will be fine on the Black Crows

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeleSwede View Post
    Thanks. I think I go for it. The worst thing that could happen breakage in the middle of nowhere... Done that with old Voilé s. Maybe Rottefella 6 hole pattern is more safe than 22 Lynx 6 hole... I have to dig into that. Any thoughts about that, or Freebird+Tele in general, is appreciated.
    If the Freedom only uses six screws, that has changed since the early version I had which used like 11 screws per binding or some crazy thing. It was a direct mount to the ski, no mounting plate like the Freeride. I would still mount even with six screws, but I would use 24 hour marine epoxy.

  9. #9
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    I think it's still 11 screws, but only 6 holds the actual aluminium lump that is the binding, the rest is only holding some small plastic parts and the heel thing. I found this hole pattern chart binding vs bindning https://earnyourturns.com/34683/tele...ng-patterns/2/ It seems Rottefela has a more sound hole pattern than 22 design, longer footprint and more screws towards the rear end.

    Not sure about the rest of the bindings though, if one of them has more of a spring bottom out when the knee hits the ski in a crash, that is a binding ripping factor.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeleSwede View Post
    I think it's still 11 screws, but only 6 holds the actual aluminium lump that is the binding, the rest is only holding some small plastic parts and the heel thing. I found this hole pattern chart binding vs bindning https://earnyourturns.com/34683/tele...ng-patterns/2/ It seems Rottefela has a more sound hole pattern than 22 design, longer footprint and more screws towards the rear end.

    Not sure about the rest of the bindings though, if one of them has more of a spring bottom out when the knee hits the ski in a crash, that is a binding ripping factor.
    That sounds kind of familiar, it's been a while since I mounted those and then sold them long ago, but I do remember there were a lot of screws. I never had bottom out issues with the Freedoms, but I'm not a real low knee dropper either. I don't recall that being an issue with others though. There may be some detailed info on Dostie's forums: https://www.backcountrytalk.com/

    By the way, I have some lightly used 22 Designs Outlaws for sale if you opt to go that route. I think they are a better touring option, less complicated and no resistance on the uphill unlike the Freedom which still has a little spring resistance. https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...kins?p=6007757

    I can't speak to the rip-out-ability differences, ha.

  11. #11
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    About the used Outlaw X, the problem is I live in Sweden, guess the postage would be humongous....

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeleSwede View Post
    Now I read that Black Crows says that warranty is void if I mount their Freebird skis with Telemark because of the risk of ripping the top sheet of.
    They are French. They wouldn't have the nerve to say that if the company was based in Sweden or Norway.

  13. #13
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    Agree with 3pin: outlaw x's would be best, but freedoms should be OK. Just be sure to use the best epoxy (24 hour or longer set), and let the drilled skis sit for 48 hours in a warm, dry place to eliminate any residual lay up moisture. Also, check binding screws regularly for loosening.

  14. #14
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    FWIW, I had a bit of back and forth with someone at Black Crows by email and it seems that there was a real issue with tele bindings pulling out (particularly with the 'freebird' series).
    I was very much of the mind set to give them a go as I'm light and don't ski super hard, but they talked me out of it.

  15. #15
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    Yes, I've seen some images bindings ripped of the topsheets from Freebird skis. I think it was an Outlaw in the picture on some red Freebird skis, so the risk seems to be for real. A friend of mine did the same thing to a pair of Dynastar Cham in the same light-ish midfat class, using R8+T1. Luckily Dynastar had no warning about Tele bindings so he got some K2 WayBack 106 from the same dealer. (I should have gone for K2... )

    I'm a bit curious why Outlaw X would be better than Freedom? No doubt most people think it's a much better binding both for skinning and skiing, but when it comes down to the pull out/delamination factor I'm not convinced, yet. The Freedom has a longer footprint and the middle screw row is offset backwards, which should give a better leverage to withstand the Tele forward momentum. Maybe the Outlaw is less active or has less tendency to bottom out in a knee to ski crash? Also, I'm more interested in the Lynx than the Outlaw, haven't skied any of them so I can't tell if one is more active or prone to bottom out than the other. The footprint is the same though. Any thoughts about my rant above is appreciated.

  16. #16
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    I was only referring to the Outlaw being better due to skinning / skiing. As far as least likely to rip out, I think the Freedom would be less likely just based on some anecdotal evidence I've read about with Outlaws. Will this be the first mount?

    It should be noted that I have read about alpine touring bindings pulling out of Black Crows skis also. But that could be said for many brands obviously.

  17. #17
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    Plenty of good skis out there without the thought of pullouts looming over you. Especially in high consequence terrain. Sell the BC's and move on to a better ski.
    Problem solved!


    You're welcome!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuco View Post
    Plenty of good skis out there without the thought of pullouts looming over you. Especially in high consequence terrain. Sell the BC's and move on to a better ski.
    Problem solved!


    You're welcome!
    Maybe this is the right answer, ha.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Backcountry...p_the_top_off/

  19. #19
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    Here is the image I was thinking of:
    https://www.telemark-shop.fr/en/blog...camox-freebird

    Seems like the problem with Freebird (at least Camox) isn't screws pulling out the old fashioned way, it's more that the binding rips off the topsheets from the skis. A little harder to fix...

    Other skis? I have several other skis. Just thought I should get some use of these skis, they had AT bindings and I find locked heel boring. A semi light all-round ski is what's missing in my quiver. Mantras are to heavy. Shiros are to heavy and useless on hardpan. JJs to short radius, K2 Backup 82 too narrow.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeleSwede View Post
    Other skis? I have several other skis. Just thought I should get some use of these skis, they had AT bindings and I find locked heel boring.
    Go faster.
    As a dude that strictly tele'd for 25 yrs(nagging knee injury forced tele retirement), going back to alpine was a revelation of power and speed.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuco View Post
    Go faster.
    As a dude that strictly tele'd for 25 yrs(nagging knee injury forced tele retirement), going back to alpine was a revelation of power and speed.
    I still have locked heel stuff in my garage. Going faster is part of the reason of boring. The ride ends much too soon, the ratio skinning/skiing goes the wrong way, even though my AT stuff tours way better. Inbounds locked heel is more fun on icy days, otherwise not.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeleSwede View Post
    The ride ends much too soon, the ratio skinning/skiing goes the wrong way, .
    No skins on the up, skins on on the down. Skinning/skiing time ratio solved.

    Lock down those heels!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeleSwede View Post
    I still have locked heel stuff in my garage. Going faster is part of the reason of boring. The ride ends much too soon, the ratio skinning/skiing goes the wrong way, even though my AT stuff tours way better. Inbounds locked heel is more fun on icy days, otherwise not.
    Hasn't been my experience, but to each their own.

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