Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 285
  1. #101
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Tahoe-ish
    Posts
    864
    Thanks, Grinch, for finally penning a cogent reply that actually answers my question.

    Your well argued perspective would make a great comment for BLM or USFS during the public comment period when they start to contemplate changing the rules. It would also be a good template for a letter to one's elected representatives to initiate the process of that rule change. Same with Europe's experience with mopeds--it will be a great example for their fans to cite in their letters.

    However, under our current set of regulations, motors are not allowed on non-motorized trails, period. I argue that we should keep it that way, and perhaps that more trails should be built to accommodate this new user group.

    Just ignoring the rules is not a sustainable solution, so I will continue to call out mopeds and motorcycles when I see them using trails illegally.

    Sent from my LG-US998 using TGR Forums mobile app
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Tahoe-ish
    Posts
    864
    Also, to all fans of e-bikes: if you want to convince those of us who are skeptical, a successful approach might be to find a reason that allowing this new type of motorized 2-wheeler will help us, the human powered. I get that they are fun for their riders, and that maybe they allow the infirm to get out on trails, but neither of those things benefits me.

    How would my interests be furthered by the introduction of new motorized trail users to currently non motorized trails? Or, at the very least, how would society be better if such a change were to occur?
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Tahoe-ish
    Posts
    864
    Lastly, before I go for a ride, the public comment period ends TODAY. So if you care, either way, make your voice heard.

    Sent from my LG-US998 using TGR Forums mobile app
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    18,254
    So what percent of pedal power generated by the motor still qualifies as a mtb? 50%? 60% 70%?

    Sounds like allowing local control on a per trail basis is what is being proposed and that isn't a bad plan so long as land managers are fair, listen, and have the bandwidth to do it, then adjust based on how its working.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    2,926
    I’m just here to watch the world burn.

    But lastly, I’m not sure what side on I’m on, and maybe I’m just feeling pessimistic, but we as humans (I’m guilty of it in times of my life, despite trying to be a “good” person) are total shit when it comes to responsible, morally upstanding behavior, from all walks of life in all aspects of society people routinely break rules, bend rules, cheat, lie, steal, etc etc, whether it’s modding ebikes, or respecting trail rules, I expect this to be no different. I know, I know, it’s none of us on here, but let’s be real.
    Do I detect a lot of anger flowing around this place? Kind of like a pubescent volatility, some angst, a lot of I'm-sixteen-and-angry-at-my-father syndrome?

    fuck that noise.

    gmen.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Hell Track
    Posts
    9,527
    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    How would my interests be furthered by the introduction of new motorized trail users to currently non motorized trails?
    Why the fuck should your personal interests matter? It's public land.

    That's precisely the kind of bullshit, holier than thou attitude that has led mountain bikers to get shut out of thousands of miles of trails. Wilderness twats protecting "their" interests on "their" lands. Get over yourself.

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Squaw valley
    Posts
    2,962
    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Also, to all fans of e-bikes: if you want to convince those of us who are skeptical, a successful approach might be to find a reason that allowing this new type of motorized 2-wheeler will help us, the human powered. I get that they are fun for their riders, and that maybe they allow the infirm to get out on trails, but neither of those things benefits me.

    How would my interests be furthered by the introduction of new motorized trail users to currently non motorized trails? Or, at the very least, how would society be better if such a change were to occur?
    You will be on an ebike soon. What's the downside of being able to ride twice the downhill?

    Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Park City
    Posts
    1,318
    Early this year I was one of the first people on a local down hill trail in the hero dirt. Someone had gone down it on an E bike and had pitched the rear end over every berm and then laid down acceleration ruts out of the turns. I could pitch my rear end over berms on my standard bike, but had never seen it done intentionally and repeatedly like this. Last year I saw a kid riding up a very technical section of the crest, that most people dismount to go down. I had never seen anyone ride up that section. I'm sure some of you could, but that kid sure as heck couldn't on a standard bike.

    It will be the regulation of the idiots that E-Bikers will need to overcome. Much like us Mtn Bikers need to overcome the people who buzz and scare hikers and horses. We are our own worst enemies.

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wenatchee
    Posts
    7,939
    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Why the fuck should your personal interests matter? It's public land.

    That's precisely the kind of bullshit, holier than thou attitude that has led mountain bikers to get shut out of thousands of miles of trails. Wilderness twats protecting "their" interests on "their" lands. Get over yourself.
    Irony? Why should e bikers interests matter? Itís their choice to choose an e bike as their recreational travel modality. Why should people make concessions for them? Your second paragraph could just as easily apply to any user group. Why should motorcycles be banned from any trail? Fuck everyone else and their interests.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    152
    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Also, to all fans of e-bikes: if you want to convince those of us who are skeptical, a successful approach might be to find a reason that allowing this new type of motorized 2-wheeler will help us, the human powered. I get that they are fun for their riders, and that maybe they allow the infirm to get out on trails, but neither of those things benefits me.

    How would my interests be furthered by the introduction of new motorized trail users to currently non motorized trails? Or, at the very least, how would society be better if such a change were to occur?
    Here's one: If your habit is to "call out" people doing something that you think is illegal, you no longer have to do that. I can't believe how bent out of shape some people get over this issue out on the trail. It's like 1 out of 20 people that feel the need to say something, and it would be really cool if the rules were changed to make it so that people had to find something else to get upset over.
    "Holy Cow!" someone exclaimed from the back of the stationwagon.

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    in the trench
    Posts
    10,791
    BLM eeb trails!! No retro grouches behind this point. Just smiles for miles

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CBNlxVxH...d=oty21qy5ixfj

    Sent from my SM-G950W using TGR Forums mobile app

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Hell Track
    Posts
    9,527
    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    Irony? Why should e bikers interests matter? It’s their choice to choose an e bike as their recreational travel modality. Why should people make concessions for them? Your second paragraph could just as easily apply to any user group. Why should motorcycles be banned from any trail? Fuck everyone else and their interests.
    Because they, as a group, have a right to use their public lands, and that collective right outweighs the rights of an individual who is generally peeved about their existence for vague, non-specific reasons. Which isn't to say that e-bikes should be allowed everywhere, anymore than any other user group has the right to use every inch of public land.

    But the fact that mountain bikers are using the exact same arguments against ebikers that Wilderness advocates have been using against mountain bikers for decades is fucking ridiculous. If you can show a fact based rationale for banning ebikes on a trail (erosion, wildlife issues, legitimate user conflict), then by all means, limit ebike use on that trail. But that limitation better be based on actual facts, not just speculation as to what could happen. If all you've got is baseless fear mongering and a vague notion of moral superiority, then go join the Sierra Club and fuck off.

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    in the trench
    Posts
    10,791
    You're absolutely nailing it toast!! But then im sure they only hear "blah blah blah" "who needs facts? What facts? I didnt see any stinkin facts!!" Sadly it does confirm my posts. I get bored beating my head against a wall though. Hope Evan doesnt try and discipline the wrong guy out on "his" trails

    Sent from my SM-G950W using TGR Forums mobile app

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Squaw valley
    Posts
    2,962
    Quote Originally Posted by Canada1 View Post
    Early this year I was one of the first people on a local down hill trail in the hero dirt. Someone had gone down it on an E bike and had pitched the rear end over every berm and then laid down acceleration ruts out of the turns. I could pitch my rear end over berms on my standard bike, but had never seen it done intentionally and repeatedly like this. Last year I saw a kid riding up a very technical section of the crest, that most people dismount to go down. I had never seen anyone ride up that section. I'm sure some of you could, but that kid sure as heck couldn't on a standard bike.

    It will be the regulation of the idiots that E-Bikers will need to overcome. Much like us Mtn Bikers need to overcome the people who buzz and scare hikers and horses. We are our own worst enemies.
    Sounds like you're really jealous of that kid.

    You don't have to be, get an e bike

    Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wenatchee
    Posts
    7,939

    BLM Proposed E-Bike Rule

    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Because they, as a group, have a right to use their public lands, and that collective right outweighs the rights of an individual who is generally peeved about their existence for vague, non-specific reasons. Which isn't to say that e-bikes should be allowed everywhere, anymore than any other user group has the right to use every inch of public land.

    But the fact that mountain bikers are using the exact same arguments against ebikers that Wilderness advocates have been using against mountain bikers for decades is fucking ridiculous. If you can show a fact based rationale for banning ebikes on a trail (erosion, wildlife issues, legitimate user conflict), then by all means, limit ebike use on that trail. But that limitation better be based on actual facts, not just speculation as to what could happen. If all you've got is baseless fear mongering and a vague notion of moral superiority, then go join the Sierra Club and fuck off.
    Wait, you say itís an e bikerís right to use their public land but later in the same paragraph you say that other users donít have a right use to their public land. Totally nailing it!

    Iím still waiting for any facts you and grinch keep prattling on about.

    The argument that itís your right to use your public land is fallacious, nobody says you canít use OUR land, but there are regulations about how you access and use it. No one is depriving you of your freedom.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Missoula
    Posts
    1,438
    I see someone riding an e-bike on our local trail system where they're not allowed, I'm probably going to say something. We're already struggling to keep trails open to bikes and it took a long time for our local mtb community to get a seat at the table when it comes to planning and building new stuff.

    I have a hard time seeing how turning a blind eye to e-bikers poaching trails is anything but detrimental to the whole mtb community, e-bike or not, maintaining access to trails, and the opinions other trail users have about us.

  17. #117
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    in the trench
    Posts
    10,791
    Head meet wall. #karenridesmtb

    Sent from my SM-G950W using TGR Forums mobile app

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Wenatchee
    Posts
    7,939
    Quote Originally Posted by grinch View Post
    Head meet wall. #karenridesmtb

    Sent from my SM-G950W using TGR Forums mobile app
    Amazingly cogent argument grinch, youíre killing it!


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    167
    I think arguing back and forth about ebikes on non motorized bike legal trails is kinda of moot point or will be very soon. I do not think the laws/trail use guidelines will change that quickly, anti-bike hiker groups have a new issue to squawk about and a lot of lawyers will make some money. The ebiker population is going to grow mind boggling fast and they are going ride where ever they dam well please. Most are completely encompassed in their own entitlement. Local agencies do not have the inclination or the resources to patrol for ebike infractions. People will modify their bikes for more speed and power and/or the new ones will be very hard to tell from regular analog bikes. Agencies will respond initially by limiting all bike access or putting a freeze on new trails because the rider numbers will grow quickly and they will get more complaints about bike speed and increased usage. Legal trails may be retrofitted with "slow down" features to calm/placate hiker groups. Management agencies will incur added maintenance and other associated costs for trails and trail head facilities (parking/bathrooms etc.). I would not be surprised if some management agencies increase funding by instituting paid annual bike user passes. Battle lines will be redrawn and new trenches dug in. Eventually all bikers will have to join forces to just hang on onto what they have now. Maybe industry will throw some $$ at new trail construction but at $500K to 1 mill a mile do not hold your breath for miles of new trails funded by them.

    The urban interface areas will experience these issues first, then resort mtn. towns and destination mtb spots and eventually more remote riding areas will start to be affected. There will be winners and losers. Old school analog riders - losers; more crowded trails; burning of user group bridges, ebike envy. Bike industry- big winners! lots of $$$ and more riders buying parts, ebike rental shop owners - winners! big $$ they have no soul; Ebikers - winners! Just because it is fucking fun without sweating and they do not give a shit; Hiker groups - losers/winners they may get more hiker only access but have to deal with way more trail users on wheels in other places.
    I am not happy about how this new technology will disrupt/change our sport because I do not see many positive aspects to it other than fact that as I get older I am going to want and buy one. I was mad and grumpy about it, now I see the writing on the wall and I do not want to carry that hostility around with me anymore. For now I will keep my current bike and take a more relaxed attitude as I cry myself to sleep.

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Hell Track
    Posts
    9,527
    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    Wait, you say it’s an e biker’s right to use their public land but later in the same paragraph you say that other users don’t have a right use to their public land. Totally nailing it!

    I’m still waiting for any facts you and grinch keep prattling on about.

    The argument that it’s your right to use your public land is fallacious, nobody says you can’t use OUR land, but there are regulations about how you access and use it. No one is depriving you of your freedom.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Ebike regulations aren't depriving me of my freedom because I'm not an ebiker. I have no stake in the ebike game, other than it pisses me off when people seem to think their personal preferences should take priority. Like I said, if there's a reason founded in actual fact to ban ebikes from a trail, then yeah, ban them. But if it's just you disliking the idea of ebikes for some vague reason, then that's not good enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamal View Post
    I see someone riding an e-bike on our local trail system where they're not allowed, I'm probably going to say something. We're already struggling to keep trails open to bikes and it took a long time for our local mtb community to get a seat at the table when it comes to planning and building new stuff.

    I have a hard time seeing how turning a blind eye to e-bikers poaching trails is anything but detrimental to the whole mtb community, e-bike or not, maintaining access to trails, and the opinions other trail users have about us.
    Agreed. I've gone from seeing one or two poaching ebikers a year, to seeing a few a week. I've told one e-biker at least 3 times that he can't ride in one of our local spots. Going to have to resort to taking down his plate and reporting to the land manager.

    I'm not opposed to changing the rules, for the reasons I've laid out above. But until those rules change, the poachers are a problem for everyone.

  21. #121
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    none
    Posts
    6,609
    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    maybe they allow the infirm to get out on trails, but neither of those things benefits me.
    It will eventually. Unless you die prematurely.

  22. #122
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    351
    When Iím old/older I want to e-bike trails. Iím pretty certain the majority of anti e-bikers will eventually come to this conclusion too. In the meantime, for the love of god all mighty, stop poaching trails. Shit is blowing up. E-bikes are all over areas where they are not allowed. Itís killing it for everyone. If there is a motor, youíre on a motorized vehicle under the current rules. Itís not a grey area. The $2k fine and confiscation is the same as if youíre brappiní around hiking only trails on a moto.

    We, as in the entire bike community, powered or not, need to help guide the local land managers. Local decisions are a great way to balance/limit use. What works on the front range may not make sense for Montana. Some of this comes down to population density. Around a city there will be an explosion of trail users. Biking is no longer painful, just a bit of work. Local management makes sense.

    In the meantime we need to help police ourselves. If we donít weíll all get the shaft. Long fought access and good will will go to shit....or rather is going to shit pending where you are.

  23. #123
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    in the trench
    Posts
    10,791
    "Class 1" wont be categorized as "motorized" because of obvious disparity between a motoX and a class 1 ebike. Problem solved. Youre welcome. Ok what do the ron johnson posse need help with now? Im here to help. Im good like that

    Sent from my SM-G950W using TGR Forums mobile app

  24. #124
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    167
    kneedropper you need to talk to some folks that just bought their ebikes. The trails are theirs to use, thank you very much. Plus a lot of them are not coming from older mtb roots and really know nothing of past trail use struggles. if our local rangers wanted to write tickets it could be a big fund raiser for them but they like to focus on getting those scoundrels riding illegal single track at $250 a pop. Strava is their best friend.

    PS our rangers use ebikes for patrol, how do you write someone a ticket when you are riding one yourself.

  25. #125
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    13,990
    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    You will be on an ebike soon. What's the downside of being able to ride twice the downhill?
    In the same amount of time that you would ride 1/2 as much? My one way to respond to that is, does that mean you are now traveling 2x as fast? And is that what we want to turn multi-use trails in to?

    Sounds like you're really jealous of that kid.

    You don't have to be, get an e bike
    Congrats on being a dick about it too. Been taking lessons from Grinch eh?
    Ooof!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •