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  1. #76
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    I think we are heading back into times where access issues are going to be bitterly fought over.
    That never went away here in Montana.

    And to say they are Mtn Bikers and we are Mtn Bikers is bullshit but I consider the source.
    Ooof!

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canada1 View Post
    I have been passed by e bikes like I was standing still while pushing hard on a carbon fiber hard tail we call the rocket in our house. E bikes do make middle aged moms who never rode into elite cross country riders. That will present conflicts.
    Exactly. On a longish climb I can put out 220 watts or so at 140#, which is sometimes enough for a top 10 on Strava. Adding another 200W to that from a motor is going to create ridiculous speed differentials with normal riders. Even if someone can only manage 100W by themselves, the motor still makes them way faster than even the fastest uphill pedalers.

    I believe there are 2 separate arguments about e-bikes. The first is the ridiculous idea that they are somehow not motor vehicles, despite the presence of a motor. People who subscribe to this seem to think that they should be allowed on all or most currently non-motorized trails. I don't think this argument will convince anyone. Also, the Sierra Club et al will absolutely use the presence of mopeds to shut down trail access for all wheeled users.

    Separately, there's the argument about whether mopeds will create more damage inherently or by allowing more users (some if whom are inexperienced) to go farther and faster. This is the discussion that needs to happen, and I'm not sure what the outcome will be.

    To make my own position clear, I think e-bikes/mopeds are fine for road and existing motorized trail use, but I vehemently disagree with allowing them to ride on non-motorized trails. I also, for now, disagree with opening more trails to motorized use. Keep in mind that I own 4 motorcycles and love riding singletrack on them as well.

    Oh, and e-bike riders are not mountain bicyclists-they are motorcyclists. Bicycles do not have motors.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by climberevan View Post
    Exactly. On a longish climb I can put out 220 watts or so at 140#, which is sometimes enough for a top 10 on Strava. Adding another 200W to that from a motor is going to create ridiculous speed differentials with normal riders. Even if someone can only manage 100W by themselves, the motor still makes them way faster than even the fastest uphill pedalers.

    I believe there are 2 separate arguments about e-bikes. The first is the ridiculous idea that they are somehow not motor vehicles, despite the presence of a motor. People who subscribe to this seem to think that they should be allowed on all or most currently non-motorized trails. I don't think this argument will convince anyone. Also, the Sierra Club et al will absolutely use the presence of mopeds to shut down trail access for all wheeled users.

    Separately, there's the argument about whether mopeds will create more damage inherently or by allowing more users (some if whom are inexperienced) to go farther and faster. This is the discussion that needs to happen, and I'm not sure what the outcome will be.

    To make my own position clear, I think e-bikes/mopeds are fine for road and existing motorized trail use, but I vehemently disagree with allowing them to ride on non-motorized trails. I also, for now, disagree with opening more trails to motorized use. Keep in mind that I own 4 motorcycles and love riding singletrack on them as well.

    Oh, and e-bike riders are not mountain bicyclists-they are motorcyclists. Bicycles do not have motors.
    This guy gets it.


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  4. #79
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    Trying to lump ebikes into an existing category pretty clearly isn't going to work. No, they're not mountain bikers - they have a motor. But they're also not motorcycles / dirt bikes. There's a very obvious difference, pretty much any way you look at it. Different speeds, different power output, different weight, and different impacts on the trails (both from a physical wear aspect and from a social impact aspect).

    Trying to regulate them simply by lumping them in with one of those pre-existing categories is going to be unsuccessful because they don't fit into either of those categories.

  5. #80
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    Climbervan,

    I agree with you and I very fearful of the impacts in Tahoe when the Forest Service allows ebikes on all MTB trails in the basin. I know there is a legal case now but that will only delay it for a year or two. Some of the popular trails are going to turn into Disneyesk attractions. You think the tahoe rim trail between tahoe meadows and marlette or the trails around south lake are crowded now, it is going to get much worse. Already the odd-even trail access thing is breaking down big time. Sucks but I think that future is inevitable. It is going to be harder and harder to get away for isolated rides, ebikes will bring a doubling of people to the sport in next few years, good or bad.

  6. #81
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    Climberevan completely nailed my POV.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_B View Post
    Climberevan completely nailed my POV.
    Ditto. And this ‘neither/Nor’ concensus us is growing among longtime, experienced riders.
    Forum Cross Pollinator

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Trying to lump ebikes into an existing category pretty clearly isn't going to work. No, they're not mountain bikers - they have a motor. But they're also not motorcycles / dirt bikes. There's a very obvious difference, pretty much any way you look at it. Different speeds, different power output, different weight, and different impacts on the trails (both from a physical wear aspect and from a social impact aspect).

    Trying to regulate them simply by lumping them in with one of those pre-existing categories is going to be unsuccessful because they don't fit into either of those categories.
    On this I think most people agree. E-bikes already have a different albeit unofficial definition.

    Its past time for the USFS/BLM and IMBA and the cycling industry to categorize them clearly.

    Once they do so it will be up to the local entities that regulate access on existing trails to follow suit and decide what works for their system trails.

    Once that happens it will be up to all the users to suck it up and make it work.
    Ooof!

  9. #84
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    Too bad this couldnt have had a looong trial period elsewhere in the world to see how things would work........

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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    On this I think most people agree. E-bikes already have a different albeit unofficial definition.
    But I guess my point is that it's not just the bikes that need their own classification, it's that the trail designations need a new classification too. Shoe horning ebikes into the current motorized / non-motorized dichotomy of trail designations seems unlikely to work on any kind of broader scale. But that shoe horning is exactly what a lot of people in here are advocating for, so it would seem that there's not a lot of agreement on that front.

    The local approach proposed by the BLM more or less tries to solve the problem of ebike classification, but it's a bit inelegant. The new rules still operate under the motorized / non motorized framework, which is outdated. While ebikes obviously have motors, they're also quite different from the types of motorized vehicles that the prior "motorized" designations contemplated.

    This is the same as any number of government rules and regulations that haven't kept pace with modern technology. The solution isn't to contort the definitions to make new technology fit into old regulations. They should rewrite the regulations to actually address the new technology in a coherent way (and hopefully write in some amount of future proofing).

  11. #86
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    IMBA wants everyone to ride full suspension fat tire ebikes on a few totally smooth flow trails near your resort town.
    Probably.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  12. #87
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    Saw this yesterday. See if you can pick out your compatriot in the comments. Im sure his other go to is "moped". I mean wtf is steve peat? Probably not a mountain biker and has never built a trail let alone one of substance

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CBIKWell...d=lqdy2l8vqkas

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  13. #88
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    Grinch- do you work in the bike industry in any capacity? Just curious.
    "If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough."

  14. #89
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    No, havent worked in a shop in 20 years. Just pragmatic about the subject. Every emtb'r i know personally is a mtb'r and is responsible for a lot of good trails that have been built over the years. I guess some are in tge industry but theyre having fun on them. All still ride their regular mtb's , some moto, some trials moto etc etc

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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by grinch View Post
    Too bad this couldnt have had a looong trial period elsewhere in the world to see how things would work........

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    What do you mean by "how things world work”? What scenario do you envision testing? Does this other place also have an active anti-bicycle lobby waiting to pounce on any excuse to restrict existing access?

    Also, electric mopeds that weren't total shit only came out a few years ago, so I don't think any place can say it really knows what their long term impacts will be.

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  16. #91
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    Not to mention other countries have gone with 250 or 300 watt limits. That amount of power could be considered pedal assist, as in it assists the rider. Your weak ass putting down 100 watts and the bike spiking over 1200 is not assistance. The pedaling barely counts as assisting the motor even if it tires you out.

    Don't listen to the BS people for bikes is putting out there:
    " they are designed, equipped, look like, and ride much like traditional bicycles and are easier to operate through the assistance of a small electric motor that is activated to assist the rider when pedaling. They are explicitly not “motor vehicles” "

  17. #92
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    All my comments are for and pro class 1.
    Italy, feance, germany, uk, NZ, aus, norway, etc etc etc. Italy being the longest os approaching 10 years. Not sure what "impact" youre referring to , collision or environment, but its safe to assume that collisions arent getting out of control and environmentally its less than shuttling or races(either of which i also support).
    Maybe your the amazing fkn creskin and are telling us whats going to happen in the next century. So thanks for that


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  18. #93
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    I'm still curious as to what exactly you're advocating, grinch. What would you for like to see the US do?

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    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    And to say they are Mtn Bikers and we are Mtn Bikers is bullshit but I consider the source.
    I've got friends I've been riding with for 15 years. As they're closing in on 70, some of 'em have recently gotten eBikes. They've always been mt bikers and still are mt bikers, your loony us vs them outlook doesn't change that.
    Maybe the bullshit you're smelling is coming from someplace a bit closer to home?
    "The mind, once expanded to the dimensions of larger ideas, never returns to its original size."

  20. #95
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    My only experience is with class 1. I did a lot of research before i bought one. Hung around the eeb forums(international crowd) and watched a million yt vids. I still didnt have a completely accurate view of how they worked and how they would be used in the real world and little geo changes needed. A lot of my misconceptions were from my mtb experience. I purchased one mid summer last year after research. Only now am i starting to see the limits so i can really compare.
    My opinion is there here and theyre growing in numbers fast. Ive never come close to a collision. The difference in speed of dh on a hardtail to dh on a full dh bike is atleast comparable to mtb vs emtb climbing speed. We heard the same sentiments when fs dh bikes gained growth. Modern enduro bikes would kill our old dh bikes. I havent taken so many wrong turns exploring trails and loving it since the 80's.
    As for your arguement aginst the sierra club its, as stated in a post above, as much or more money that talks as it is bicycle lobby. But either way , thats what opened trails. The lobby is bigger with membership added(ie: eebers) or the monetary part which is money people and industry(both of which are solidly behind emtb).
    Sounds like your cutting off your nose to save your face

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  21. #96
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    Ok, good points, especially about the money. However the argument that the the industry is pushing it and that they are coming in large numbers so we should just accept it falls flat. It sounds eerily like "it's going to happen so you should just lie back and enjoy it".

    Please, just as a courtesy, give us a quick outline of what you'd like to see WRT to rule changes. What exactly are you advocating?

    How am I hurting myself by opposing allowing mopeds on non-motorized trails?



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  22. #97
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    The pigeon holing trails as motorized and non motorized seems to be the focus for opposing groups. Yes they have a motor but lumping them in with a motoX is ridiculous. Theyre not even close to a moto(class 1 anyway) and waaaay more vlose to an mtb. They are an mtb with a small amount of assist(atleast compared to a moto). People initially will use the higher power modes then thyre battery will die. They still wont use boost initially because they have to get used to that. Then as they get accustomed to the bikes and gain fitness they use the battery sparingly and just avoid sprints or hard intervals. The only full boost mode hammer heads i see are the racer types that are training like motor pacing only offroad. Their point is to keep the heart rate pinned while still facing obstacles(great for enduro training). There a few of that category and theyre generally aware of trails.
    My point is, staiting the max power output doesnt tell the story. Very very few are at max power 2/47. I like trail mode because it works off the tourque sensor. If i put more tourque in with my legs , it gives me more tourque sensing i want it. Boost is used for steep and loose. So despite using max power im still going slow because its steep and theres only so much tourque in those little motors.
    If the retro grouch seasoned riders out on the trails , that get all upset when they see emtbs and have to share the trails , had an eeb theyd be off exploring with an extra battery far away from the crowds(another thing i like about them). Same amount of time for your regular workout but you are out away from the less seasoned. I like how Jeff Kendall Weed recently explained eebs. He thought theyd be great as a self shuttle bike(and they are) but he really likes them a bad trails. Shitty, loose, rough, with lots of up and down. Trails you avoid with a mtb and are too tight for the moto. You can add flow and have a ton of fun challenges that would otherwise be impossible on an mtb.
    Emtb should be allowed most anywhere an mtb is. Signage at the bottom of directional trails needs to be put in place. Fast dh jump trails would be the most worriesome. Tech trails differ. Some need to stay directional but some work both ways. The example being squamish as a lot of the rock faces were originally ups for trials moto and now days you may see a trials moto going up or a freerider going down and more recently a skilled eeber tackling the up

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  23. #98
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    I manage our local trail network, and am responsible for developing and implementing a sensible ebike policy. They’re definitely creating the need to designate more one way trails, but after much consideration the only place where we are are attempting to limit their use is on a certain few trails where effort otherwise functions as a filter to limit use. Motors eliminate this filter and could result in higher levels of traffic than can be accommodated on specific trails due to issues with physical sustainability (where current levels of use are approaching the limit we can maintain for) or higher levels of use than will be compatible with walkers on popular multi use trails. Otherwise we’re opening up most of our network to class 1 ebikes.

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by grinch View Post
    Too bad this couldnt have had a looong trial period elsewhere in the world to see how things would work........

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    It was. In Europe, most mountain bikes i see on trails are e bikes.

    Nobody's complaining.

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  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    It was. In Europe, most mountain bikes i see on trails are e bikes.

    Nobody's complaining.

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    [Whoosh]

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