Statue of Robert E. Lee and other confederate symbols

[schindlerpiste]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/vi...ue/ar-BB1504ZT

Virginia is taking down the historic statue of Robert E. Lee and similar things have happened or are happening throughout the south. I wonder whether there is a private market for this sort of thing? I can see collectors and ultra rich southerners eating this up

[Kinnikinnick]

Anyone who flies that treason flag is a fuckwad. The ONLY reason for that flags existence is slavery and anyone flying it in the face of fellow Americans is treason to the USA. It represents the worst of the USA, that was lanced at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives. Flying that flag is a outright rebellion against the constitution and the sacrifice of American blood .

Same for the statues.

When they start putting up Benedict Arnold statues next to Robert E Lee then we can call it a treason museum.


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[XXX-er]

up here we got dumb rednecks who think the confederate flag is about Bo, Luke and Daisy Duke so you might see it on the odd raised PU, there is even a local guy with the tattoo, when told what the con flag stands for he said " well thats not what I meant ! "

[highangle]

"My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge!"

[Timberridge]

If we wanted to cleanse all this country's demons we should probably consider removing statues of all leaders and presidents before 1890 for condoning and supporting the eradication and removal of the Native Americans.

It's a long list to go through if you want to moralize history, but now might be the time to give it a go, as 40 million unemployed people could perhaps pull this off.

[MultiVerse]

If we wanted to cleanse all this country's demons we should probably consider removing statues of all leaders and presidents before 1890 for condoning and supporting the eradication and removal of the Native Americans.

It's a long list to go through if you want to moralize history, but now might be the time to give it a go, as 40 million unemployed people could perhaps pull this off.

A fair point generally speaking but the majority of confederate statues were erected during the Jim Crow era specifically to send a political message: Long live the Confederacy! The goal was to enshrine white supremacy.

[Schemeboat]

Visited Richmond this fall. Cool city, very pretty, good breweries and nice folks. Monument ave. was an eye opener for this white Canadian kid. Also went to the Hollywood cemetery, where Jefferson Davis is buried.

Being so removed from any Civil war history (we don't even really learn it in HS) among many things, made VA a truly fascinating place. Looking forward to going back.

[Timberridge]

A fair point generally speaking but the majority of confederate statues were erected during the Jim Crow era specifically to send a political message: Long live the Confederacy! The goal was to enshrine white supremacy.

Happy to start at the Confederacy since it's easy pickings. Let us know when we should stop.

[Danno]

If we wanted to cleanse all this country's demons we should probably consider removing statues of all leaders and presidents before 1890 for condoning and supporting the eradication and removal of the Native Americans.

It's a long list to go through if you want to moralize history, but now might be the time to give it a go, as 40 million unemployed people could perhaps pull this off.

It's not a cleansing of history. The statues and confederate flag don't remain popular because they are symbols of history, good or bad. The statues were all erected intentionally as racist symbols. The flag was adopted as a racist symbol. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54426...emacist-future
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...t-war-history/

They literally were intended as symbols of racist oppression and have nothing to do with "history".

[schindlerpiste]

One day there will be a demand to tear this down:

I wonder whether there will be a private market for Monticello?

[Danno]

Happy to start at the Confederacy since it's easy pickings. Let us know when we should stop.

Any symbol that was erected or promoted for the exact purpose of racial oppression should come down. Don't be so damn obtuse in the name of snark.

[Sirshredalot]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/vi...ue/ar-BB1504ZT

Virginia is taking down the historic statue of Robert E. Lee and similar things have happened or are happening throughout the south. I wonder whether there is a private market for this sort of thing? I can see collectors and ultra rich southerners eating this up

There isn't much artistic merit to this crap. It was mass-produced cheaply and sold at a steep markup to crackers and rubes spending state and local tax revenues during the klan revival in the 1920s. But a sucker's born every minute. Some dumbfuck would probably spend his daddy's money on it.

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[Marshall Tucker]

Happy to start at the Confederacy since it's easy pickings. Let us know when we should stop.

spot on.

In my religion we say "let the person without sin throw the first stone."

[Timberridge]

Any symbol that was erected or promoted for the exact purpose of racial oppression should come down. Don't be so damn obtuse in the name of snark.

I'm only obtuse to the dumb.

[buttahflake]

.240 BA, fucking scrub.

[Danno]

At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, should Germany post-WWII have left up symbols of Nazism because they represented "history"? Should South Africa have left up monuments exalting apartheid because they represented "history"? It has nothing to do with "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Monticello should of course remain, it wasn't erected as a symbol of racial oppression. There is a dramatic difference between monuments that were erected to commemorate a person who was considered great at the time, but we later know to be more problematic. Or monuments that were erected with slave labor or whatever. Your "history" and "we're all sinners" argument is much stronger with those.

But these confederate statues and confederate flags were not displayed to represent history, they were constructed and displayed precisely for the purpose of continuing racial oppression, precisely for the purpose of commemorating that racial oppression as something to be exalted. There's a drastic difference there, and until you can discern the difference, "history" and "we're all sinners" is a really weak response.

[jono]

There's a difference between whitewashing history and removing symbols. Kinnickinick's claims seem to justify double think and ignorance of history a lot more than does the removal of some symbols. Both history and symbology are nuanced, but a symbol can be built our destroyed without denying that nuance or claiming that everyone sees it the same way. Certainly without rewriting history to a more binary narrative in the process.

[Timberridge]

.240 BA, fucking scrub.

I'm Mickey fucking Mantle.

I'm not talking about whitewashing history you idiots.

Should we take down Mount Rushmore? If the collective answer is "yes" then I'm ok with blowing it to pieces. My point is, where does one stop?


Although Mount Rushmore was constructed with the intention of symbolizing "the triumph of modern society and democracy",[15] for the original land occupants, the Lakota Sioux, the monument embodies a story of "struggle and desecration".[16] The U.S. Government promised the Sioux territory, including the perpetuity of the Black Hills in the Treaty of 1868. That lasted only until the discovery of gold on the land and soon after white settlers migrated to the area in the 1870s. The federal government then forced the Sioux to relinquish the Black Hills portion of their reservation.[16] The battle that took place in 1890 between the US Army and the Native Americans is known as the Wounded Knee Massacre, "where hundreds of unarmed Sioux women, children, and men were shot and killed by U.S. troops", as summarized by PBS regarding historian Dee Brown's account of the event.[16] This was all perpetuated by President Ulysses S. Grant's belief toward civilizing Indigenous cultures. He believed, "under the benign influences of education and civilization. It is either this or war of extermination".[16]

The four presidential faces were carved into the granite with the intention of symbolizing "an accomplishment born, planned, and created in the minds and by the hands of Americans for Americans"

[MultiVerse]

Lee was a loser and a traitor. This thread is like asking why Benedict Arnold isn't venerated. Ridicule is what Lee deserves.

[waxman]

Being so removed from any Civil war history (we don't even really learn it in HS) among many things, made VA a truly fascinating place. Looking forward to going back.

That's because "we" don't teach any history in Canadian schools. Unless it has been sanitized to current social norms.

[::: :::]

One day there will be a demand to tear this down:

Not so sure about that...they run that place with a very clear discussion about slaves & their roles at the time
It is the opposite of the statue removal convo going on here...no glorification or whitewashing of the true history

I wonder whether there will be a private market for Monticello?

if the above ever happened...could be
you should see the UVa alumni mag...every other page is real estate ads for expansive estates in central VA, new & old

[Dantheman]

Let's apply some deductive reasoning here:

Most people who think these statues should stay up are deeply loyal and vocal Trump supporters. Trump has repeatedly and emphatically stated he hates "losers," both literal and figurative. The Confederacy lost the Civil War. Therefore, removing the statues is entirely consistent with Trump's worldview and anyone who supports Trump should support removal of these statues of losers.

[hatchgreenchile]

Not so sure about that...they run that place with a very clear discussion about slaves & their roles at the time
It is the opposite of the statue removal convo going on here...no glorification or whitewashing of the true history
d

Same experience when visiting James Madison's Montpelier (gorgeous property, BTW).
How to appropriately view the founding fathers, most of whom were slave owners, is a tough one.

[schindlerpiste]

Can we compare slavery to Nazis to medieval times to the Inquisition to apartheid? We all know that there are many remnants of Nazi Germany. The same can be said for torture museums in places like San Gimignano. While, it's not right, shit happens everywhere. I support the attempt to erase glorified atrocities, so long as we don't burn books, and they are not melted down for bronze content.

[Core Shot]

One day there will be a demand to tear this down:

I wonder whether there will be a private market for Monticello?

Does it come with African American sex slaves?