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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobMc View Post
    Met you several times, but kinda perplexed on this thread. You see confederate statues being taken down and wonder how much people will pay for them and how to save them? Seems a bit odd.

    He's thinking that some of those statues would look great in his yard. Schindler, I hate to disappoint, but they aren't anatomically correct, so you can't lick their racist assholes like you desperately want to.
    I remember a bottomless freedom...

  2. #52
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    NOLA Mayor Mitch Landrieu explains why confederate monuments were taken down in his city
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  3. #53
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    Former mayor just for the record

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Wait, what exactly should we be doing with the actual truth? Are you suggesting that people are better off buying into the lie of current times that says everything (and every person) is either black or white, perfect or evil? And if not we should re-paint them according to our wishful thinking? I know we've been in a post-factual era for a few years, but I don't think I've seen anyone openly defend this state of affairs yet. If that's your position I would be interested to see it defended.
    Typo or bad autocorrect, my apologies. Should read "do", not don't.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    Former mayor just for the record
    It’s an old speech. Still pretty good
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    My family all immigrated post-civil war no the North and West.

    I've studied the war a fair amount. I enjoy military history.

    Our Civil War had atrocities and cruelties, although comparatively less than contemporary or more modern civil wars, yet 750,000 . What makes monuments to the Civil War different is that they can be a peaceful way of remembering the dead without glorifying their cause, which is a part of healing. But racists can use them to glorify the "lost" cause, and let me be clear, the proximate causes of the civil war were multifactorial, but the ultimate Southern cause was to preserve an aristocracy built on slavery.

    My feeling is that, in general, history should be protected, and monuments are best left up with additional plaques that provides context. A CO example is the monument at the Capitol Building in Denver to (Union) John Chivingtaun who was a (Union) Civil War hero but a true villain for the Sand Creek Massacre. There was a petition to take it down, but the tribe said leave it but put up a plaque talking about Sand Creek. That is the exact civil and mature way that such controversy should be handled.

    Battlefield memorials should certainly be left alone.

    Oh yea, and Lee was a shitty general who should have been fired after Gettysburg, and only because of Meade's cautiousness was the entire Army of Northern Virginia not destroyed in detail backed against the flooded Potomac in the retreat immediately following. That, combined with simultaneous victory at Vicksburg (which did happen), could have ended things earlier.
    For someone who is usually pretty thoughtful, you have completely missed the mark. Battlefield monuments are one thing, but the statues and flags were not put up to commemorate history. They were put up to send a message to black people, 50-100 years later. Was John Chivingtaun's statue erected precisely to send a message to Indians, to tell them that they were subhuman and subjugated? Or was it erected because he was (mistakenly) considered a hero?
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "I'd eat a bag of Dicks and wash it down with a Coke any day." - iceman

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikesalot View Post
    Mount Rushmore was supposed to be carvings of Native American heroes, but then the white KKK sculptor changed it to be the great white leaders of democracy. Right in the heart of sacred Native American Land.
    The ultimate troll.


    Wow.


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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    For someone who is usually pretty thoughtful, you have completely missed the mark. Battlefield monuments are one thing, but the statues and flags were not put up to commemorate history. They were put up to send a message to black people, 50-100 years later. Was John Chivingtaun's statue erected precisely to send a message to Indians, to tell them that they were subhuman and subjugated? Or was it erected because he was (mistakenly) considered a hero?
    Yup. My parents' church in had a plaque commemorating the time(s) Robert E Lee worshipped there. They took them down not because of what they said, but because of when it was put up. The historical context of when monuments are erected, not just their content, is inextricable from their meaning.

    Across the street, the 30 foot tall pillar with a life sized Bobert Lee on top was in no way constructed to honor the more than 750,000 fallen. It was quietly removed a few years back in the middle of the night with no public warning. No judgment on that - but I just think of how much fun those folks seemed to be having when that tank tore down the saddam statue in 2003 and feel like an opportunity was missed...

  9. #59
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    Virgil quick come see..


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  10. #60
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    The Civil War never ended. Only the shooting stopped, for the most part. The battle to remove the statues is just that--one more Civil War battle, a bloodless one for the most part. But not the last battle, not by a long shot.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall Tucker View Post
    spot on.

    In my religion we say "let the person without sin throw the first stone."
    in mt religion we dont throw stones
    we gits
    skied jeff davis cirque a couple times
    i hope to ski doobie doubies
    then i will have skied it trice
    whateverz ya wanna call it
    fine with me not a lot of people ski it
    its easier to sit home and argue politics
    great basin rocks and Mathers work mattered
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  12. #62
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    It seems most of these statues serve no other purpose than being a silent sentinel standing over people to oppress and should be removed. Sort of like the Sadam shit in Iraq.
    www.apriliaforum.com

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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobMc View Post
    Met you several times, but kinda perplexed on this thread. You see confederate statues being taken down and wonder how much people will pay for them and how to save them? Seems a bit odd.
    This is exactly the point. People are strange and do all sorts of things. On the periphery, this sort of thing may be considered art by some. One person has said that these things are poorly made and basically worthless, but maybe not to all. That is what I am trying to discover. In my warped mind, I can see some plantation owner, or some other tried and true southerner, maybe named Billy Bob or Buford who owns 10+ acres to eat this shit up. Think Dukes Of Hazard types. One man's art is another's garbage. So odd? Yes.
    So far, there have been 60+ posts and you, and maybe one other has addressed the question posted. To me, that's odd....but typically TGR.
    Last edited by schindlerpiste; 06-05-2020 at 06:42 AM.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vt-Freeheel View Post
    It seems most of these statues serve no other purpose than being a silent sentinel standing over people to oppress and should be removed. Sort of like the Sadam shit in Iraq.
    So I guess a trump statue is not gonna happen?
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
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  15. #65
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    Statue of Robert E. Lee and other confederate symbols

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall Tucker View Post
    spot on.

    In my religion we say "let the person without sin throw the first stone."
    Given the amount of violence has been committed in the name of religion, that saying holds no water.

    Oh and tear down the confederate regalia. Loosers don’t get statues, winners do.

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  16. #66
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    Any way, here is a very interesting article that addresses the question of what happens to confederate monuments when they are taken down. The answer surprised me, and no doubt will puzzle many posting here. Educate yourselves. Read the article:
    https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-...uments-removed

    Across the United States, Confederate monuments are coming down. In New Orleans, four were removed earlier this year by workers whose faces were covered to protect their identities; in Durham, North Carolina, one was toppled by frustrated protesters this past Monday; and on Wednesday, four were ferried away on flatbed trucks before dawn in Baltimore.
    So where do they go next?
    The removals themselves often occur after protracted legal battles and amid pitched protests—the most high-profile of which resulted in the killing of a counter-protester in Charlottesville, Virginia, last weekend. But the fate of these monuments once they’re taken down from their pedestals does not receive the same level of attention. Now, as a growing number of cities propose the removal of local Confederate statues and monuments (there are more than 700 on public land across the county), the often overlooked matter of what comes next is poised to become increasingly significant.
    In 2015, two candidates from the University of Texas at Austin’s satire magazine were elected to lead the student government—largely on the basis of their promise to remove a statue of former Confederate president Jefferson Davis from campus. University president Greg Fenves soon convened a 12-person advisory panel to determine the statue’s fate.
    Composed of professors, students, and alumni, the group offered a series of proposals that ranged from outright removal to the addition of contextual plaques. In the end, Fenves declared that the statue of Davis would be relocated to an on-campus museum. It was taken down in August 2015; 20 months later, it was installed in the newly-renovated Briscoe Center for American History, where it is accompanied by a plaque that reads, in part: “[T]he statue’s presence in an educational exhibit—as opposed to a place of honor on campus—underlines the fact that Davis, as well as many of his ideas and actions, are no longer commemorated or endorsed by the university.” (Three other statues of Confederate leaders remain on campus in their original locations.)
    Indeed, despite the heated debate around their removal, Confederate monuments are almost never destroyed after they are taken down. The majority are or likely will be relocated to museums or historical sites.

    In April 2016, another school—Kentucky’s University of Louisville—announced its decision to remove a 70-foot-tall concrete pedestal, topped with a statue of a Confederate soldier, from campus. Following a public comment period, Louisville’s Commission for Public Art considered “five or six” historical sites for relocation, Louisville’s public art administrator Sarah Lindgren told Artsy. These included several Kentucky Civil War battlefield sites, a Confederate cemetery, and the state’s Civil War museum.
    They were also approached by the Ratcliffe Foundation, a private organization based in Virginia that is “accepting [Confederate monuments] onto their property with the promise to maintain them for historical sake,” according to Lindgren. (The foundation did not respond to a request for comment.)
    Ultimately, the commission relocated the monument to a public, rather than private, location. “There was still a lot of support for the monument,” Lindgren said. “One of the considerations was that it should be accessible.” The mayor selected the nearby town of Brandenburg—home to a significant Civil War battlefield—to receive the monument, which was dedicated in May. The whole process took about six months, according to Lindgren.
    Confederate monuments have also been relocated to cemeteries. In Gainesville, Florida, the local government was having trouble finding a new spot for its monument to fallen Confederate soldiers that stood in front of a county administration building.
    “The solution, which should have been obvious from the beginning, was simply to give it back to who gave it to us,” county commissioner Robert Hutchinson said.
    The original donors were the United Daughters of the Confederacy, who found a new spot for their 113-year-old statue in a nearby cemetery. County officials had no control where it would ultimately be taken, and Hutchison said they were also unsure as to whether the UDC had plans to add a historical plaque to the statue.
    Sometimes the removal of the monument precedes the decision about where it will end up. When New Orleans took down its Confederate monuments, the first of which was removed this April, they were put into storage in an undisclosed location. A plan for their fate is now being determined. (Baltimore, which removed four monuments this week, also has placed them in storage in an unnamed location.)
    In May, the New Orleans mayor’s office floated several potential sites: Beauvoir (the home of Jefferson Davis’s Presidential Library), the Smithsonian, and Washington and Lee University. The school immediately announced that it was not, in fact, interested in the monument to Robert E. Lee because “the statue that exists in New Orleans is about his time as a soldier, and their university focuses on any work he did around education post the war.”
    Through this summer, the city was accepting proposals for what to do with the monuments, receiving suggestions from nonprofits and government agencies. It has assembled a committee of city officials to sort through the feedback and make a final recommendation to the New Orleans city council. Proposals must detail how the organization “will place the statues in context, both in terms of why they were first erected and why the City chose to remove them in 2015.” The city has also stipulated that the monuments cannot again be displayed outdoors on public property in Orleans Parish.
    A Confederate monument that once stood in St. Louis has also been in storage since its removal in July. Mark Trout, founder and director of the Missouri Civil War Museum, now has custody of the statue following a legal battle with the city that resulted in a settlement. The settlement dictates that the monument cannot be placed within the city of St. Louis or the wider St. Louis County. “We may not have it taken off our hands,” Trout said. “It’s something that the museum may always hang on to.”
    The bronze portion, Trout told Artsy, was painted by protestors and the city’s resulting use of paint stripper damaged the work. It will be undergoing restoration for the next six to 12 months. The stone base—all 200,000 pounds of it—is in protective storage. “The longterm goal for it would obviously be to find a suitable place for it at a Civil War battlefield, a Civil War cemetery, or a museum property but we have to see where it all goes.”
    He said he’d just gotten off the phone with a museum in Arkansas that was asking for advice in dealing with a similar situation. “I don’t think this is the last Confederate monument that I’m going to be involved in saving,” he said.
    “A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.”
    ― Milton Friedman

  17. #67
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    As others have said, they're not art. They are not heritage. Read Danno's links. They are symbols of oppression installed as a warning on from high to remind African Americans that while they might have won freedom as an outcome of the south losing the civil war they still weren't real people and certainly didn't have real freedom in the south. The statues were enacted after the war as a conscious reminder that the structure of southern society would not change, and former slaves still had no rights and no choices, and should and would be terrorized at white people's whims. Many people still see the power of the symbolism and either use it to oppress or feel oppressed by it every day.

    If we want to be a truly inclusive society then there is zero justification for not tearing them down. There is no reason to keep them that remotely approaches offsetting the pain they cause a huge number of people.

    If you want to be a contrarian and talk about other categories of monuments that might be causing pain, that's fine, we can do that. But that doesn't in any way change the right answer here.

    Educate yourself about the monuments. Find out who put them up and why. See the trauma the represent. Show some understanding. Then tear them down.

  18. #68
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    I'd respond in kind but everybody here knows what you are. move along.

    Do hope we meet sometime though. That woudl be fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    This place is full of rich, middle aged to old racists. They'll strenuously object to that accusation, but it's irrefutable. Simply by being born white in the time and place they were, they are steeped in racist ideology.



    You're a piece of cracker white trash who knows damn well he doesn't have a leg to stand on in this debate. I would shake your hand and say the same thing to your face, but with social distancing and all, you would have to accept it with a smile from 6 feet away.
    "Can't you see..."

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peruvian View Post
    Given the amount of violence has been committed in the name of religion, that saying holds no water.

    Oh and tear down the confederate regalia. Loosers don’t get statues, winners do.

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    Zombies should get statues?! Now I'm confused

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    I would shake your hand
    I'm imagining with a limp, sweaty handshake.
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  21. #71
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    i thinks the nat geo was better when they printed great photography a good factual articles in a glossy print mag i always looked forward to receiving
    vrs the op edge/ed game
    but thats whats the public wants now
    but yeah
    "what a killer he was"
    https://blog.nationalgeographic.org/...n-the-present/
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    Yo poliassfuckers
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  22. #72
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    If you want to memorialize the Civil War dead, Maya Lin set a pretty good example. If we were to follow the Southern model there would be a statue of William Westmoreland on the National Mall.
    Many towns have plaques listing the names of the town's dead, perhaps with a cross or a pillar or other, unoffensive marker. Maybe some towns in the South have them.
    I remember passing a wall in France--wish I could remember where--covered with individual plaques, each with a name and the phrase "Mort pour la France".
    We should remember the war dead, whether they were on the winning side or the losing side, the "right" side or the "wrong" side. Maybe it will help us avoid the next war.
    We should try to forget most of the generals and politicians who sent those men and women off to die, as best we can.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peruvian View Post
    Loosers don’t get statues, winners do.
    What about tighters?
    Quando paramucho mi amore de felice carathon.
    Mundo paparazzi mi amore cicce verdi parasol.
    Questo abrigado tantamucho que canite carousel.


  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    If we were to follow the Southern model there would be a statue of William Westmoreland on the National Mall.
    Wouldn't the Southern model dictate that the Westmoreland statue be in Ho Chi Minh City?

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    An interesting side note from here in New Mexico. Back in 1598 a Spanish conquistador named Juan de Oņate here in NM directed a raid on the Indian Pueblo of Acoma because his crew was low on food for the coming winter. The Acoma said fuck you and resisted, killing a dozen or so Spaniards, including Oņate’s nephew. Oņate reacted typically and killed several hundred Acoma, and ordered the right foot of surviving adult males amputated, along with some other severe reprisals.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoma_Massacre

    Naturally some hard feelings resulted. A large statue of Oņate on horseback was erected north of Santa Fe, and in 1998 during the 400 year anniversary of Spanish entry to NM a group of Acoma snuck in at night and cut the right foot off the statue. It’s been replaced and security around the statue increased, but it still rubs local Indians the wrong way.
    https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/630.html

    We took the liberty of removing Oņate's right foot on behalf of our brothers and sister of Acoma Pueblo ... We see no glory in celebrating Oņate's fourth centennial, and we do not want our faces rubbed in it.
    And I guess that I just don't know

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