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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by schindlerpiste View Post
    Can we compare slavery to Nazis to medieval times to the Inquisition to apartheid? We all know that there are many remnants of Nazi Germany. The same can be said for torture museums in places like San Gimignano. While, it's not right, shit happens everywhere. I support the attempt to erase glorified atrocities, so long as we don'tstop burning books, and they are not melted down for bronze content.
    Just as there will always be remnants of the pre civil war South, and slavery in all corners of the country. But the monuments to Confederate actors and the prevalence of that flag fit squarely within this: "I support the attempt to erase glorified atrocities". Anyone arguing otherwise should read the two links I posted earlier.

    Auschwitz still exists as a museum. There are no statues glorifying Hitler.
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  2. #27
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    A plan floated proximate to the charlottesville incident was to collectively move these statues to somehwere "out in the country" creating something akin to what I think timberridge is saying. You wouldn't see them unless you made an effort to see them.

    The very term "American" carries with it a history of slavery and oppression. We don't get to pick and choose and edit.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by waxman View Post
    That's because "we" don't teach any history in Canadian schools. Unless it has been sanitized to current social norms.
    Ontario checking in. Not true, we certainly studied the civil war. Shit we even had school trips to Gettysburg.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    Auschwitz still exists as a museum. There are no statues glorifying Hitler.
    And certainly not ones that were erected long after the fact.

    Preserving places where horrific historical events happened is obviously entirely different than preserving later-erected monuments that glorify those responsible for the atrocities. That people choose not to see the difference is baffling to me.

    And to the OP's point, I hope the monuments to the bootlicker rebellion are crushed into dust and smelted down into something worthwhile.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall Tucker View Post
    A plan floated proximate to the charlottesville incident was to collectively move these statues to somehwere "out in the country" creating something akin to what I think timberridge is saying. You wouldn't see them unless you made an effort to see them.
    I can't tell what he's saying because all I see is constant snark. But I am ok with that idea, I don't give a shit if they're out in some field as a redneck racist shrine. But when they're in front of statehouses and in public parks and in front of public buildings and as the names of schools, and all of those were implemented long after the war in order to be a symbol of oppression pointed directly at blacks, that's a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall Tucker View Post
    The very term "American" carries with it a history of slavery and oppression. We don't get to pick and choose and edit.
    I don't disagree at all with your first sentence. I would never suggest we tear down the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves, though I do think we should be teaching that complicated and problematic history (if you think that is "editing" than I disagree with your second sentence). But again, the things that we're talking about here -- the monuments and the flag -- were erected and popularized long after the fact to GLORIFY oppression and racism, to basically send lynching messages to the black people that saw them. I don't feel like we need to leave those up in the guise of "history". Because they are not about the history of the civil war or Southern culture and pride, they are about the history of the Jim Crow era and the civil rights era, but they are never acknowledged as such.
    Last edited by Danno; 06-04-2020 at 09:34 PM.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
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  6. #31
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    I agree with Danno. To go off on a tangent, I recall my freshman dorms at THE []_[] in 1977. A white guy (from Long Island) was assigned to a room with a black dude (debate champ from Michigan). The white guy was a fan of southern rock and he immediately hung a confederate flag over his bed. After a week, or so, the two changed roommates, but nothing was ever spoken about the flag.
    “A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.”
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  7. #32
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    It’s bizarre that so many symbols of the Union victory have been allowed to fade away and we are having a discussion about the merits of monuments designed to glorify traitors & racist revisionist bullshit.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timberridge View Post
    Happy to start at the Confederacy since it's easy pickings. Let us know when we should stop.
    Easy, we can stop at the Confederacy. No need to make this more complicated, thanks.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by schindlerpiste View Post
    One day there will be a demand to tear this down:
    Attachment 330644
    I wonder whether there will be a private market for Monticello?
    If Jefferson gets a pass Pete Rose should be in the HOF.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    I would never suggest we tear down the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves, though I don't think we should be teaching that complicated and problematic history
    Wait, what exactly should we be doing with the actual truth? Are you suggesting that people are better off buying into the lie of current times that says everything (and every person) is either black or white, perfect or evil? And if not we should re-paint them according to our wishful thinking? I know we've been in a post-factual era for a few years, but I don't think I've seen anyone openly defend this state of affairs yet. If that's your position I would be interested to see it defended.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    Anyone who flies that treason flag is a fuckwad. The ONLY reason for that flags existence is slavery and anyone flying it in the face of fellow Americans is treason to the USA. It represents the worst of the USA, that was lanced at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives. Flying that flag is a outright rebellion against the constitution and the sacrifice of American blood .

    Same for the statues.

    When they start putting up Benedict Arnold statues next to Robert E Lee then we can call it a treason museum.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    It’s bizarre that so many symbols of the Union victory have been allowed to fade away and we are having a discussion about the merits of monuments designed to glorify traitors & racist revisionist bullshit.

    This place is full of rich, middle aged to old racists. They'll strenuously object to that accusation, but it's irrefutable. Simply by being born white in the time and place they were, they are steeped in racist ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall Tucker View Post
    spot on.

    In my religion we say "let the person without sin throw the first stone."
    You're a piece of cracker white trash who knows damn well he doesn't have a leg to stand on in this debate. I would shake your hand and say the same thing to your face, but with social distancing and all, you would have to accept it with a smile from 6 feet away.
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  13. #38
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    I was working in Montgomery, AL recently and went running on various routes through the city to check it out. Civil rights monument was interesting, then realizing that it's basically a block or two from statues of Jefferson Davis, Confederacy Memorial, and the first confederacy white house. The statue and memorial are post-Civil War stuff.
    Damn shame, throwing away a perfectly good white boy like that

  14. #39
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    Can we get rid of the Albert pike statue in Washington DC?

    Oh wait. That was one of the good rebels that founded freemasonry and was possibly a satanist.

    Can we destroy the Lincoln memorial while we are there? What a racist fucktard.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    This place is full of rich, middle aged to old racists. They'll strenuously object to that accusation, but it's irrefutable. Simply by being born white in the time and place they were, they are steeped in racist ideology.
    That would make them blameless.

  16. #41
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    My family all immigrated post-civil war no the North and West.

    I've studied the war a fair amount. I enjoy military history.

    Our Civil War had atrocities and cruelties, although comparatively less than contemporary or more modern civil wars, yet 750,000 . What makes monuments to the Civil War different is that they can be a peaceful way of remembering the dead without glorifying their cause, which is a part of healing. But racists can use them to glorify the "lost" cause, and let me be clear, the proximate causes of the civil war were multifactorial, but the ultimate Southern cause was to preserve an aristocracy built on slavery.

    My feeling is that, in general, history should be protected, and monuments are best left up with additional plaques that provides context. A CO example is the monument at the Capitol Building in Denver to (Union) John Chivingtaun who was a (Union) Civil War hero but a true villain for the Sand Creek Massacre. There was a petition to take it down, but the tribe said leave it but put up a plaque talking about Sand Creek. That is the exact civil and mature way that such controversy should be handled.

    Battlefield memorials should certainly be left alone.

    Oh yea, and Lee was a shitty general who should have been fired after Gettysburg, and only because of Meade's cautiousness was the entire Army of Northern Virginia not destroyed in detail backed against the flooded Potomac in the retreat immediately following. That, combined with simultaneous victory at Vicksburg (which did happen), could have ended things earlier.
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  17. #42
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    I think that they should be taken down and placed into a museum, or museums. This way people who are offended by them need not constantly see them in the middle of a town square. They should not be destroyed or vandalized, and I like the idea of history being preserved for the [paying] public. Similarly, I have not problem with interested parties visiting a Nazi death camps, WWII museums and underground tunnel systems that are spread throughout Germany.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by schindlerpiste View Post
    I think that they should be taken down and placed into a museum, or museums. This way people who are offended by them need not constantly see them in the middle of a town square. They should not be destroyed or vandalized, and I like the idea of history being preserved for the [paying] public. Similarly, I have not problem with interested parties visiting a Nazi death camps, WWII museums and underground tunnel systems that are spread throughout Germany.
    For profit museums? They should not be placed into museums subsidized by government. If these statues are that popular then the museum will have no problem affording staff, buildings, etc.

  19. #44
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    Can we agree to ban the Lincoln penny and to tear down his monument?

    ========

    While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied every thing. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. [Cheers and laughter.] My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men. … I will also add to the remarks I have made (for I am not going to enter at large upon this subject,) that I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, [laughter] but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, [roars of laughter] I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes. [Continued laughter and applause.]”
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    I would never suggest we tear down the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves, though I don't think we should be teaching that complicated and problematic history...
    You don't think that we should teach history? You don't think that there's worthwhile lessons in the past as it actually happened and was lived? I completely and emphatically disagree with you if that's indeed what you're trying to say.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by schindlerpiste View Post
    I like the idea of history being preserved for the [paying] public. Similarly, I have not problem with interested parties visiting a Nazi death camps, WWII museums and underground tunnel systems that are spread throughout Germany.
    So you are down with putting Nazi regalia in a museum run for-profit by actual Nazis?

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    A fair point generally speaking but the majority of confederate statues were erected during the Jim Crow era specifically to send a political message: Long live the Confederacy! The goal was to enshrine white supremacy.
    And plenty more were erected during the early 60's as a lameass reaction to desegregation of schools and the Voting Rights Act. My feeling on it is (i) if it wasn't up before 1900 it was a reaction to the opposition to institutionalized racism and therefore I give it no historical credence, and (ii) in any event, any such monuments, etc., belong in a private setting and not on public property. Put it in a museum and put it in context, that's historical.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier View Post
    So you are down with putting Nazi regalia in a museum run for-profit by actual Nazis?
    I understand and have visited many German WWII museums, military bases, concentration camps and border museums. I don't think that these are run by Nazis, but I am 100% sure that they are run by people whose relatives were Nazis.Hell, I even tried a case in the same building where the Nürnberg trials took place.
    “A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.”
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  24. #49
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    Mount Rushmore was supposed to be carvings of Native American heroes, but then the white KKK sculptor changed it to be the great white leaders of democracy. Right in the heart of sacred Native American Land.
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  25. #50
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    Met you several times, but kinda perplexed on this thread. You see confederate statues being taken down and wonder how much people will pay for them and how to save them? Seems a bit odd.

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