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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall Tucker View Post
    ^ so to follow the logic of the thread that makes you a mexican uncle tom muther fuckin cracker ass etc.etc.etc. Which I know your're not but let's keep the thead logic alive.

    Right Danno? Rootskier? etc.
    Hey, I never called you names or called you a racist for defending the statues. What I said was the history of WHY they were erected matters. I did not use any of those terms or even imply them about you or anyone else here. But feel free to twist what I said any way you like as an excuse to call me out for disagreeing with you. That was a dick move.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
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  2. #77
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    As for the statue that MS mentions, if it was erected to celebrate Onate and his accomplishments (however fucked that might be) then I think the foot amputation is a great alternative to the "plaque" that some here have mentioned. If, however, the statue was erected intentionally to be a fuck you to the Acoma people, to tell them to shut up and keep in their place, then it should come down.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall Tucker View Post
    ^ so to follow the logic of the thread that makes you a mexican uncle tom muther fuckin cracker ass etc.etc.etc. Which I know your're not but let's keep the thead logic alive.

    Right Danno? Rootskier? etc.
    You’re reaching.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    As for the statue that MS mentions, if it was erected to celebrate Onate and his accomplishments (however fucked that might be) then I think the foot amputation is a great alternative to the "plaque" that some here have mentioned. If, however, the statue was erected intentionally to be a fuck you to the Acoma people, to tell them to shut up and keep in their place, then it should come down.
    I’m not going to pretend to know why the statue was raised, but my take is that it’s pretty tone-deaf at the very least. And it reminds me of the tone-deafness of statues of Confederate historical figures. The difference being that the Spanish won that war.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall Tucker View Post
    ^ so to follow the logic of the thread that makes you a mexican uncle tom muther fuckin cracker ass etc.etc.etc. Which I know your're not but let's keep the thead logic alive.

    Right Danno? Rootskier? etc.
    I don't even know what you are talkin' about, broheim.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by irul&ublo View Post
    What about tighters?
    Well, they are always right.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by schindlerpiste View Post
    So far, there have been 60+ posts and you, and maybe one other has addressed the question posted. To me, that's odd....but typically TGR.
    It may be typical of TGR, but people have answered your question over and over. I offered up that if they have economic value then maybe put them in a for profit museum and people interested in seeing them can do so. I think that's not a great idea for a business as I suspect there isn't a big market for seeing these things.

    Your idea of a rich southerner buying these seems flawed to me. If there's a rich southerner who is hell bent on having a statue of Robert E. Lee or Jefferson Davis, they can hire an artist to make one for them and slap it on their property. Why rescue a monument that has a history of inciting racism and causing social divide? Your turn to answer a question.
    Damn shame, throwing away a perfectly good white boy like that

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikesalot View Post
    Mount Rushmore was supposed to be carvings of Native American heroes, but then the white KKK sculptor changed it to be the great white leaders of democracy. Right in the heart of sacred Native American Land.
    Never heard that legend about NA's in the design. Link for a history buff?

    We stopped at Rushmore on our see the USA trip and I felt swelled with patriotism at Rushmore. Amazing place. We ate lunch at the crowded cafeteria and a coupe of young tweenage brothers found seats across the table. Out of the blue one of the boys says " My daddy says that Obama is a nigger". Kid had a southern drawl but the words could have just as likely come from a kid from Ohio or California. How can we fix that?
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush View Post
    Why rescue a monument that has a history of inciting racism and causing social divide? Your turn to answer a question.
    Because inciting racism is the ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE of these monuments.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    Never heard that legend about NA's in the design. Link for a history buff?

    We stopped at Rushmore on our see the USA trip and I felt swelled with patriotism at Rushmore. Amazing place. We ate lunch at the crowded cafeteria and a coupe of young tweenage brothers found seats across the table. Out of the blue one of the boys says " My daddy says that Obama is a nigger". Kid had a southern drawl but the words could have just as likely come from a kid from Ohio or California. How can we fix that?
    This is the one I read: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...ore-180960446/

    Also, Stone Mountain in GA is pretty weird. I too had that sensation seeing Mount Rushmore, patriotism, and then though about the destruction of the mountain to make the sculpture, but still...that thing is interesting.

    Stone Mountain on the other hand made me question it...what exactly is the point? these guys lost the war and this is monument to the institution of slavery in many ways. Why does it exist?
    Damn shame, throwing away a perfectly good white boy like that

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier View Post
    Because inciting racism is the ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE of these monuments.
    Exactly. Schindlerpiste doesn't seem to understand that.
    Damn shame, throwing away a perfectly good white boy like that

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    Never heard that legend about NA's in the design. Link for a history buff?

    We stopped at Rushmore on our see the USA trip and I felt swelled with patriotism at Rushmore. Amazing place. We ate lunch at the crowded cafeteria and a coupe of young tweenage brothers found seats across the table. Out of the blue one of the boys says " My daddy says that Obama is a nigger". Kid had a southern drawl but the words could have just as likely come from a kid from Ohio or California. How can we fix that?
    Interesting. I found Rushmore to be tacky, contrived, cloyingly touristy and an eyesore when I visited. I would pay good money for tickets to go and see it be dynamited if they ever get around to demolishing it.

  12. #87
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    Maybe it was being on a life altering road trip with no itinerary and my best friend forever riding shotgun that made it extra special. And it was sunny. Hope you got my point. See you at the march?
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier View Post
    Because inciting racism is the ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE of these monuments.
    And to be clear, it's not like a monument of Robert E. Lee is inherently intended to incite racism. We can debate whether it's a good idea to have a monument erected for him, just like we can debate whether a monument should have been erected for some of the other people mentioned in here (Chivington, Onate).

    It is that these monuments, sprinkled throughout the south (along with the confederate flag), were popularized/erected/flown during periods of extreme racial tension, to send a message to black folks that they were subhuman and should stay in their place. They were not erected to celebrate history at all, they were erected like you said, for the purpose of inciting racism.

    It's a pretty clear distinction that seems to be lost on some people.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    Maybe it was being on a life altering road trip with no itinerary and my best friend forever riding shotgun that made it extra special. And it was sunny. Hope you got my point.
    Indeed I do. I suppose Rushmore just irritates me for the same reason the Catholics do: I'm not keen on idolatry.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    And to be clear, it's not like a monument of Robert E. Lee is inherently intended to incite racism. We can debate whether it's a good idea to have a monument erected for him, just like we can debate whether a monument should have been erected for some of the other people mentioned in here (Chivington, Onate).

    It is that these monuments, sprinkled throughout the south (along with the confederate flag), were popularized/erected/flown during periods of extreme racial tension, to send a message to black folks that they were subhuman and should stay in their place. They were not erected to celebrate history at all, they were erected like you said, for the purpose of inciting racism.

    It's a pretty clear distinction that seems to be lost on some people.
    It’s more accurate to say they were erected to celebrate a fictitious history, one that justified race based chattel slavery & glorified traitors.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush View Post
    Exactly. Schindlerpiste doesn't seem to understand that.
    I think that you are right there. To me, these universities cited in the article that I posted are not keeping them in museums to incite racism. I don't think that every statue depicting the confederacy has no value and was cheaply made. On the other hand, people who like to chant racism want these monuments erased to make them justify their mentality. It's a cause, so let's be activists. This reminds me of the difference between racism versus hatred of an different ethnic groups. I am told that only white people can be racist, and it is impossible for blacks to be racist. OTOH, blacks can just hate whites, because of whites racism. I don't quite understand that, either.

    The approach of the persecuted Jews is very different. They seem to like holocaust art, as there are many paintings, monuments and memorials of life during WWII. Many of them continually visit Dachau, Buchenwald, Auschwitz and the many border museums that occupy the German landscape

    By I digress. Would I buy one? No. Do I enjoy viewing them when I visit cities in the south? No. Do they bother me, personally? Not particularly. Do I admire Civil War generals? No. Did I stir up interesting conversation in the Padded Romm? Yes.
    Mission accomplished
    Last edited by schindlerpiste; 06-05-2020 at 10:46 AM.
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  17. #92
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    Not on point, but I always find the history of Princeton interesting...and tortured.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/a...l-history.html
    It makes perfect sense...until you think about it.

    I suspect there's logic behind the madness, but I'm too dumb to see it.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    Indeed I do. I suppose Rushmore just irritates me for the same reason the Catholics do: I'm not keen on idolatry.
    Roy Rogers is one of my idols too. John Wayne, not so much.
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    It’s more accurate to say they were erected to celebrate a fictitious history, one that justified race based chattel slavery & glorified traitors.
    This. All the reciting of how racist they are won't convince any of the southerners who view their history differently. So there are and will be more generations who view the removal of "their" symbols as a symbol of the oppression of southern culture. So they get to be victims. The fact that symbols have different meanings for everyone is inconvenient but still true. Take em down, melt em, whatever, but the certainty about why anyone would oppose that is a bit overconfident.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by schindlerpiste View Post
    I think that you are right there. To me, these universities cited in the article that I posted are not keeping them in museums to incite racism. I don't think that every statue depicting the confederacy has no value and is cheaply made. On the other hand, people who like to chant racism want these monuments erased to make them justify their mentality. It's a cause, so let's be activists. This reminds me of the difference between racism versus hatred of an different ethnic groups. I am told that only white people can be racist, and it is impossible for blacks to be racist. OTOH, blacks can just hate whites, because of whites racism. I don't quite understand that, either.

    The approach of the persecuted Jews is very different. They seem to like holocaust art, as there are many paintings, monuments and memorials of life during WWII. Many of them continually visit Dachau, Buchenwald, Auschwitz and the many border museums that copy the German landscape

    By I digress. Would I buy one? No. Do I enjoy viewing them when I visit cities in the south? No. Do they bother me, personally? Not particularly. Do I admire Civil War generals? No. Did I stir up interesting conversation in the Padded Romm? Yes.
    Mission accomplished
    git back to me when you buy a pot shop
    im mission worthy
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  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    Rushmore
    I found Mt. Rushmore to be one of the most appalling things I've ever seen. It is a monument to hubris.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    Interesting. I found Rushmore to be tacky, contrived, cloyingly touristy and an eyesore when I visited. I would pay good money for tickets to go and see it be dynamited if they ever get around to demolishing it.
    Ditto

    Hubris


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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Keystone is fucking lame. But, deadly.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by schindlerpiste View Post
    I think that you are right there. To me, these universities cited in the article that I posted are not keeping them in museums to incite racism. I don't think that every statue depicting the confederacy has no value and was cheaply made. On the other hand, people who like to chant racism want these monuments erased to make them justify their mentality. It's a cause, so let's be activists. This reminds me of the difference between racism versus hatred of an different ethnic groups. I am told that only white people can be racist, and it is impossible for blacks to be racist. OTOH, blacks can just hate whites, because of whites racism. I don't quite understand that, either.

    The approach of the persecuted Jews is very different. They seem to like holocaust art, as there are many paintings, monuments and memorials of life during WWII. Many of them continually visit Dachau, Buchenwald, Auschwitz and the many border museums that occupy the German landscape

    By I digress. Would I buy one? No. Do I enjoy viewing them when I visit cities in the south? No. Do they bother me, personally? Not particularly. Do I admire Civil War generals? No. Did I stir up interesting conversation in the Padded Romm? Yes.
    Mission accomplished
    A couple of thoughts:

    Depictions of what happened during the holocaust are not the same as statues of leaders of the confederacy IMV.

    What would it matter if the statues were cheaply made or expensively made? Are you talking about melting down a bronze statue, recycling the materials for reuse? If so, sure I can get behind that.

    Here's my assumption about the monetary value of these things...is there any proof that there is a market for these things? It seems to me that "they should be in museums" is only meant to satiate the folks that are bothered by these being removed...it's not that they have much monetary value, again, unless you're talking about the raw materials and recycling them.
    Damn shame, throwing away a perfectly good white boy like that

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper View Post
    An interesting side note from here in New Mexico. Back in 1598 a Spanish conquistador named Juan de Oñate here in NM directed a raid on the Indian Pueblo of Acoma because his crew was low on food for the coming winter. The Acoma said fuck you and resisted, killing a dozen or so Spaniards, including Oñate’s nephew. Oñate reacted typically and killed several hundred Acoma, and ordered the right foot of surviving adult males amputated, along with some other severe reprisals.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoma_Massacre

    Naturally some hard feelings resulted. A large statue of Oñate on horseback was erected north of Santa Fe, and in 1998 during the 400 year anniversary of Spanish entry to NM a group of Acoma snuck in at night and cut the right foot off the statue. It’s been replaced and security around the statue increased, but it still rubs local Indians the wrong way.
    https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/630.html
    I like this. Much more interesting than just spraypainting it, etc.

  25. #100
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    They should melt the statues down and use the metal in new statues that commemorate people who have been lynched or murdered by police.

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