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  1. #6551
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    My knowledge is Washington State, so can't comment on Brady list issues in Trump states. But if a prosecutor fails to properly disclose a Brady cop, that can get the conviction overturned. So pretty big incentive to not screw it up.

    And Frazier v Cupp doesn't deal with police lying about some impropriety, it has to do with police ability to trick suspect into confessing. Classic scenario is telling one guy his buddy confessed (not true) to get the first guy to confess.

    Here's another good police trickery case where cops got suspect's DNA from envelope by claiming he was a member of a bogus class action settlement.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...from-envelope/

  2. #6552
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    Note dissenting opinion in DNA case came from Justice Chambers, who was known as Washington's strongest judicial supporters of civil rights and privacy issues. Voters here got rid of him because he said black people have a crime problem.

  3. #6553
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    Good article today in Seattle Times about a homeless man who just died and all the efforts and resources that went into trying to "reform" him. Its not that the criminal justice system isn't trying. But this is a problem that spans all aspects of society.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...-travis-berge/

  4. #6554
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    That's a solid example. Another like it that's a bit more likely for the average citizen:

    https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1730709.html

    There are probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of examples where police use deception as a normal tool in their kit and courts consistently say that's fine. So "getting caught" isn't really a thing for them.

    A list of all the people who make a mistake and forget who they're supposed to lie to and who they're not is shockingly simplistic. I'm not sure who seems the most naďve--I'd like to say the judge(s) who came up with the idea, but I'm too cynical to really believe that. SCOTUS sees the judicial system as an unacceptable encumberance for police, but the rest of us are supposed to be glad we have the right to spend years or decades fighting for a chance at justice if we're wrongfully accused.

  5. #6555
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    Well, well worth a listen - all the way to the end. (Sorry if it’s already posted)



    Southern storytellers are the best with their words.
    I still call it The Jake.

  6. #6556
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    Saw that. Great vid, and the kind of voices we need to maybe get through to some of our populace.

  7. #6557
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmillsSkier View Post
    Well, well worth a listen - all the way to the end. (Sorry if it’s already posted)



    Southern storytellers are the best with their words.
    God damn. Love his music n didn't expect to hear that msg but, indeed, I hope it sinks in a little. Thanks for posting it.

  8. #6558
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmillsSkier View Post
    Well, well worth a listen - all the way to the end. (Sorry if it’s already posted)



    Southern storytellers are the best with their words.
    Wow. The empathy deficit is really the root of the problem, as he so eloquently states.
    ride bikes, climb, ski, travel, cook, work to fund former, repeat.

  9. #6559
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    I bet these white boys think they are patriots


    https://www.9news.com/mobile/article...4-ff187b619d33

    How many of those guys did you think are cops or military?
    Last edited by simple; 09-21-2020 at 11:18 AM.

  10. #6560
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmillsSkier View Post
    Well, well worth a listen - all the way to the end. (Sorry if it’s already posted)



    Southern storytellers are the best with their words.
    Damn. I wonder how that's being received.

  11. #6561
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    13 year old with autism shot as he walks away from police officer, still hospitalized with wounds to his shoulder, both ankles, intestines, and bladder.

  12. #6562
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post

    There are probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of examples where police use deception as a normal tool in their kit and courts consistently say that's fine. So "getting caught" isn't really a thing for them.
    I have video of a cop telling my coworker he knows me and my wife personally and that I abuse my wife (neither of which are true, he only knew her name from his interview with me, where I told him he may remember meeting my wife when he had to deal with alarm issues at her business...and the case had zero to do with my wife) to manipulate the coworker into thinking “well, he seemed like a nice guy, I guess I don’t really know him after all.” Then he goes on to tell him things he “knows” about the case that were pure conjecture, and feeding him a variety of statements, each time saying something like “I’m not telling you what to say but...”, then telling him what to say.

    Ultimately, none of that matters, because the check on that behavior is a trial, and nobody goes to trial because the jury pool is full of old Karens who believe anything a cop says because, like our buddy altasnob, they think a cop would never ever never lie because cops are heroes.

  13. #6563
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    I have video of a cop telling my coworker he knows me and my wife personally and that I abuse my wife (neither of which are true, he only knew her name from his interview with me, where I told him he may remember meeting my wife when he had to deal with alarm issues at her business...and the case had zero to do with my wife) to manipulate the coworker into thinking “well, he seemed like a nice guy, I guess I don’t really know him after all.” Then he goes on to tell him things he “knows” about the case that were pure conjecture, and feeding him a variety of statements, each time saying something like “I’m not telling you what to say but...”, then telling him what to say.

    Ultimately, none of that matters, because the check on that behavior is a trial, and nobody goes to trial because the jury pool is full of old Karens who believe anything a cop says because, like our buddy altasnob, they think a cop would never ever never lie because cops are heroes.
    QFT. So the genius of the Brady list is that, given Frazier and its children, we now have a tool to force cops to get witnesses to lie on their behalf and keep their own record clean. Think of the overtime we can save!

  14. #6564
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    like our buddy altasnob, they think a cop would never ever never lie because cops are heroes.
    This is what I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    Police lie all the time. They just don't get caught.

  15. #6565
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    So Jono, just to make sure I understand your point of view. If it was up to you, you would not allow police to use any form of deception as an investigative technique? Why do you think this is such a problem? It really has nothing to do with police brutality and relates to the voluntaryness of a confession. The biggest downside is it can lead to false confessions. But the upside is it allows police to solve crimes that they would not have been able to without the use of deception. Courts have been addressing this issue for years and your opinion seems to be a wild departure from past precedent.

    Here's some of the leading cases upholding police deception to gain a confession:

    A confession has been held to be voluntary even though police concealed the fact that the victim had died. People v. Smith, 108 Ill. App. 2d 172, 246 N.E.2d 689 (1969),cert. denied, 397 U.S. 1001 (1970).

    Statement found to be voluntarily given where police wrongly told co-defendant that his confession could be used against suspect, police then let co-defendant and suspect confer. During conference, co-defendant told suspect his confession would be used against suspect. See, e.g.,State v. Braun, 82 Wn.2d 157, 509 P.2d 742 (1973).

    A confession has been held to be voluntary even though the suspect was falsely told his polygraph examination showed gross deceptive patterns. State v. Keiper, 8 Ore.App. 354, 493 P.2d 750 (1972).

    A confession has been held to be voluntary even though the suspect was falsely told a co-suspect had named him as the triggerman. Commonwealth v. Baity, 428Pa. 306, 237 A.2d 172 (1968).

    A confession was held to be admissible even though the police falsely told the defendant that they had obtained a victim’s hair sample in vehicle driven by defendant. State v. Burkins, 94 Wn. App. 677, 973 P.2d 15 (1999)
    Last edited by altasnob; 09-21-2020 at 06:04 PM.

  16. #6566
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    ^^^And yet, lying to police is called “Obstruction of Justice”.
    A little one sided doncha think?
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  17. #6567
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    If someone lies to the police and commits obstruction of justice they "willfully hinders, delays, or obstructs any law enforcement officer in the discharge of his or her official powers or duties" (taken from Washington's obstruction of justice law). So when someone commits this crime it is because they are trying to get away with a crime they have committed (by lying) or otherwise prevent a police officer from doing their job.

    Contrast that to police deception techniques. Police are not trying to purposefully get false confessions using deception (although that could be a byproduct). They are trying to solve crimes, and deception is just another trick in their tool kit. Note that if the person is in custody, the police must Mirandize them (you have the right to remain silent, anything you say will be used against you in court). After Miranda, police are free to use deception to try to get an in custody suspect to confess. Of course, if the suspect was smart, they would keep their mouth shut.

    It just seems to me of all the ways to improve policing and the criminal justice system, preventing police from using deception techniques is way, way, down the list. My quick research shows there are other countries where police using deception is prohibited (England). But my guess is the majority of Americans are ok with police using deception, and the practice has been upheld by the courts for 80 years.

  18. #6568
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    Yanno... either we have "state's rights" or we don't. Penalizing states for resisting Federal intervention is BS.
    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


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  19. #6569
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    RE: police deception.

    There was a time when I might have had something to do with selling ozs of Colombian reefer.

    The word was, "if you ask a guy who is asking to buy from you if he is a cop, they have to tell you".

    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    Yanno... either we have "state's rights" or we don't. Penalizing states for resisting Federal intervention is so Trumpian.

    Just sayin.

    And this

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...49c_story.html

    MERIDIAN, Idaho — The first time Alek Kyzik tweeted, two months ago, he invited Donald Trump Jr. to a pro-Trump rally he was hosting in Boise.

    “I would love to chat,” he wrote in a public post on July 9 addressed to the president’s eldest son, who did not respond. “Thanks!”

    The invitation was to a “cruise,” the type of provocative show of force that would become Kyzik’s signature: a motor-rumbling, flag-waving caravan of cars and trucks endorsing Trump on the streets of liberal cities. The most recent cruise he hosted involved thousands of vehicles advancing on Portland, Ore. It ended with one participant shot dead.

    Kyzik was not well known in Republican activist circles. In fact, Kyzik was not even his real name, according to a review of business and academic records, as well as interviews with family members.

    He is Alex Kuzmenko, a 33-year-old architect who lives in a second-story apartment in Meridian, a bedroom community outside the majority-Democratic city of Boise. His YouTube channel featured luxury car reviews before shifting to pro-Trump memes and videos several months ago. He and members of his family — immigrants from Belarus and Ukraine ­— had almost no political profile before organizing one of the most consequential pro-Trump demonstrations of the summer.
    is not weird at all.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

  20. #6570
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    From mid June:

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    Fwiw, if you’re at the end of your nerves and want to get away, look at a cheap flight to wausau or somewhere and just go drive around in a northerly direction. Absorbing a strife-free atmosphere was was refreshing in ways I can’t adequately describe.
    It wasn’t the purpose of my trip, at all, but it was powerfully recuperative and pretty illuminating insomuch as it highlighted, for me, how much weight that pall has been draping on my shoulders.

    Annnnd now Wisconsin has some of the worst counties in the country.
    Guess all that taking it lightly didn’t work out.

  21. #6571
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    Crested Butte painted black lives matter on Elk Ave last night. The Facebook and Instagram comments have been... Interesting

    Sent from my VS996 using TGR Forums mobile app

  22. #6572
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Where is Creaky Fossil now, anyway?
    HAHA. That guy is such a chump IRL. He got a major beat down by about 20 Missoula cops with billy clubs. Definitely was a Police Behaving Badly worthy incident, except in his case I had zero sympathy.



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  23. #6573
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    Crested Butte painted black lives matter on Elk Ave last night. The Facebook and Instagram comments have been... Interesting

    Sent from my VS996 using TGR Forums mobile app
    I met Peter O'rourke lately. Is he one of them commenting?

  24. #6574
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    So Jono, just to make sure I understand your point of view. If it was up to you, you would not allow police to use any form of deception as an investigative technique?
    Thank you for asking. No, that is not what I would advocate. If it was up to me people would stop denying reality. Stop claiming that police, who are legally and procedurally encouraged to lie, and given discretion as to how and when, are really truthful, trustworthy and somehow immune to the two obvious forces that drive police corruption: selection and conditioning. Those two things would occur in any profession where discretion is granted and accountability is lacking because power corrupts and corrupt people seek power. All the worse when that profession is the one we entrust with a monopoly on state-sanctioned violence.

    You want to speculate about what might go wrong if we changed the system. But your defense of the system denies the present reality in order to hide from your fear of purely speculative harms. The first step to solving a problem is admitting it exists. I'm not saying the whole system needs to be junked and replaced with anarchy. No one is saying that. But you can't fix something while claiming it's already working. Post-factualism solves nothing.

    (I didn't really read past where you started assuming you had it right and headed for the weeds, so sorry if I missed something important in there.)

  25. #6575
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    When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis


    Kindness is a bridge between all people

    Dunkin’ Donuts Worker Dances With Customer Who Has Autism

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