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  1. #1376
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    The very same institutions that have been entrusted with "doing the right thing" are who the citizenry are railing against. In those cities it's also the same group who have all the equipment and all the guns.
    The people thought that by giving up their constitutional 2nd amendment they would be ok with the 1st, however, it was the other way around. You should have kept your 2nd amendment rights to keep the cops and National Guard at bay to defend your 1st amendment.
    If places like NY passed the safe act, they shouldn't have exempted law enforcement from the same laws.
    It's sad to admit this, but perhaps it hasn't been the wolf is sheeps clothing, but a wolf in sheep dog clothing all along.
    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    My point is that your local government(our local governments) said trust us, they can have the guns and power. It goes to their heads as your seeing.
    They have no fear and you are seeing the results. They are protecting and serving they are dominating and intimidating.
    What you are describing here is an arms race.

    Contrary to American myth, more guns does not equal less violence.


    edit to add: LegoSkier nailed it.

  2. #1377
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    I can't get over the black guard in D.C.

    No nametags, no indication from where they came or for whom they work. They won't answer questions from press.

    This is Trump and Barr's America.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  3. #1378
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    apparently he was trying to return property to the police

    the other 57 officers have now resigned from the team in solidarity with the shovers.
    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    So 59 less bad apples, then? Seems like a win.
    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    Good fucking riddance to them.

    From the video it looks like he was attended to by national guardsmen?

    The cops just walked past him.
    Don't worry they only resigned from the riot team. They're still cops.

  4. #1379
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan_pdx View Post
    Here's something that pisses me off.

    Several years ago I got pulled over in the burbs for a minor traffic infraction (a left turn that was temporarily not allowed due to road construction).

    Someone had recently been shot/killed by police after a traffic stop (and it's kind of telling that this is so common I don't remember which case that was), so with that in mind, I put my window down and put my hands on the wheel until the cop came to the car. When he got to me, he asked for my license, and I said something along the line of "It's in my wallet, which is in my jacket pocket. I'm going to take my hand off the wheel to open my jacket pocket and get my wallet, OK?" I kept both hands on the wheel until he replied.

    He basically laughed it off and told me to relax. This was a few weeks after a highly publicized death by cop at a traffic stop and he thought it was a joke that I might be scared of getting shot. They don't have a shred of empathy or think that anything is wrong, and that fundamental disconnect with civilians is a huge fucking problem.
    I do exactly that when I get pulled over, which thankfully is rare. Hands in plain sight and I say everything I am going to do before I do it. It's habit. And I live in VT.

  5. #1380
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Sounds like of the 4 cops involved in Floyd's death, 2 were rookies. 1 was on his 4th day on the job.
    All four of these guys fucked up. But the rookie cop goes through a few weeks of boot camp training, including training on how to detain an individual who is being combative (not saying Floyd was combative). Then the rookie is thrown into the fire on his fourth day. Would you stand up to your superior in the heat of the moment four days into your job? If these guys walk, or get convicted of lesser charges, it is because their training told them to do essentially what they did (except for not as long and not to the point the person dies).

    Not all cops are good, but my anger is directed at the legislature who refuse to revamp antiquated laws that lead to these encounters. The cops were detaining Floyd because he was a suspect in a $20 counterfeit theft. Allegedly stealing $20 should never result in a police encounter that leads to a man's death. Lot easier to throw a few rookie cops under the bus though.

  6. #1381
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    yup this ^^

    I figure I am so racialy ambiguous folks are not really sure if they are suposed to hate me or not ?
    you're canadian, of course we hate you. Jealousy

  7. #1382
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    The cops were detaining Floyd because he was a suspect in a $20 counterfeit theft. Allegedly stealing $20 should never result in a police encounter that leads to a man's death. Lot easier to throw a few rookie cops under the bus though.
    As was previously pointed out in the thread, much of the "bad cops attitudes" can be laid at the feet of their unions who insist upon protecting shitheads and putting the legal cost of their bad actions on the tax payer rather than the police departments. Those 2 issues need to be dealt with. If this had happened in CA, the cops would of never even shown up, as anything under $800 does not get looked into. Killing a man over $20 is really fucked up. Especially if your job is to "Protect and Serve".
    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    I think you'd have an easier time understanding people if you remembered that 80% of them are fucking morons.
    That is why I like dogs, more than most people.

  8. #1383
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    That coroner's report is bullshit and any prosecution pathologist witness can tear it apart. Heart failure is a medical term that the heart is pumping but not adequately. There is no evidence that Floyd had that condition, which is usually chronic but can be acute in the case of a heart attack. The coroner probably meant cardiac arrest, but everyone dies of cardiac arrest. On an autopsy or death certificate it is meaningless unless the patient has a sudden fatal arrhythmia like ventricular fibrillation or tachycardia. In any case the coroner says that the heart failure complicated the restraint and neck compression, which means it was caused by them. So other than misusing the term heart failure the coroner's report is semi-accurate--it blames the neck compression for the death but skips over the suffocation--but more importantly it is written in order to deliberately obfuscate the cause of death. Any physician reading the report would understand that the neck compression and restraint caused the death, but the news media, politicians, cops, prosecutors are clearly fooled by the way the report is written. That report is one more black mark against the Minneapolis LE system. If that coroner is cross examined the prosecutor will be able to bring all of this out and make it clear to the jury that the report is part of a PD coverup. Thus the report is more damning against the officers, not less.
    Thanks for that analysis. That last part gives me hope...a little.
    And I guess that I just don't know

  9. #1384
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    Quote Originally Posted by liv2ski View Post
    As was previously pointed out in the thread, much of the "bad cops attitudes" can be laid at the feet of their unions who insist upon protecting shitheads and putting the legal cost of their bad actions on the tax payer rather than the police departments.
    The collective bargaining process between the police union (any union) and the city (or any employer) is an adversarial process. The head of the police union's job is to try to get the most pay and the best benefits for their union members. They also want to make it hard for union members to be fired (which union would not advocate for this?). I would agree that sometimes police unions are narrow minded, and do not take into account the political ramification of some of their positions. But the employer/city does not need to give in to these positions. If people have anger towards police unions, there should be equal anger towards mayors, city administrators, and other elected officials who fail at negotiating with the union.

  10. #1385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    What you are describing here is an arms race.

    Contrary to American myth, more guns does not equal less violence.


    edit to add: LegoSkier nailed it.
    " I merely pointed out if you disarm the citizens you should disarm the police as well."
    I posted this also. My point was you may not like an arms race, but you've been engaged in an arms race for 20 years with your arms tied behind your back. It's not what I wanted, it's what we got. The cops are armed like the military, NY residents are disarmed limited to non detachable mags, 6-7 rounds, limited semi autos etc.
    If crime was falling which it was and citizens continuously had fewer and less potent options, the police should not have had MRAP's and full on swat assault teams for every podunk town.
    I'm arguing that if you want less guns that's fine, but putting more guns and authority into the group you have issues with, was not a wise choice.

  11. #1386
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    Name another profession with any potential to impact public safety for which there are unions but no licenses required.

  12. #1387
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    Also, police unions do occasionally refuse to support an officer accused of misconduct. If this happens, there is no arbitration process, and officer is immediately fired. The officer could, in theory, file a law suit against the union for failing for fulfill their obligation to go to bat for the officer. The unions, fearing this law suit, error on the side of fighting for their union members. Moreover, the unions often advocate for a full and complete investigation before any termination is made. If you were a member of a police/fire/teacher/grocery store clerk union, and paying union dues for years, wouldn't you want a full and complete investigation before you are given the can? Again, it's an adversarial process. Union is doing what they do. City's need to grow a pair and do what they need to do. But again, easier to throw rookie, low pay, cops under the bus.

  13. #1388
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Name another profession with any potential to impact public safety for which there are unions but no licenses required.
    Fire fighter. I'm confused by the question. Are you saying the solution is a license to become a cop will solve everything?

  14. #1389
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    The collective bargaining process between the police union (any union) and the city (or any employer) is an adversarial process. The head of the police union's job is to try to get the most pay and the best benefits for their union members. They also want to make it hard for union members to be fired (which union would not advocate for this?). I would agree that sometimes police unions are narrow minded, and do not take into account the political ramification of some of their positions. But the employer/city does not need to give in to these positions. If people have anger towards police unions, there should be equal anger towards mayors, city administrators, and other elected officials who fail at negotiating with the union.
    Bob Kroll, the Minneapolis Police Union head, is explicitly antagonistic towards the community at large, why shouldn’t he get more blame?

  15. #1390
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    I think you are missing my point. you will continue to have this problem with a militarized police and a disarmed citizenry. I merely pointed out if you disarm the citizens you should disarm the police as well.
    You don't know cops too well if a well regulated group of black men with arms didn't open fire but stood around and monitored the police with cameras you can damn sure believe there would be no shots fired.
    Mutually assured destruction is an effective deterrent. When you governor strips the rights of its citizens to open carry or carry at all like NY but spends billions on a militaristic police force, then you wind up with an imbalance of power.
    My point isn't about having warring factions shooting at one another. My point is that your local government(our local governments) said trust us, they can have the guns and power. It goes to their heads as your seeing.
    They have no fear and you are seeing the results. They are protecting and serving they are dominating and intimidating.
    CA dealt with the Panther by banning open carry. I don't recall the NRA having much to say about it. The only reason there are states with open carry is because the powers that be aren't feeling threatened by the kind of people who are carrying. The minute they do feel threatened by people with guns the guns will be taken away. Sure a bunch of cops and ATF and soldiers will die in the process but they are expendable cannon fodder--plenty of out of work young people ready to take their place.

    Look how the 1967 Detroit riots were put down--National Guard and US active duty military, tanks and machine guns. There were active firefights with shooting from both sides. Some people hiding on the floors of their apartments were killed by 50 cal machine gun fire through the brick walls. There were rumors of sniping before the troops were called in but it was never proven. So you had an invasion of a community with armed resistance and it was put down in 48 hours. The community didn't have AR15's like they might have today but while the police may sometimes be outgunned the Guard and the Army will never be.

  16. #1391
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    How often do the contracts come up for ratification? Is there generally public notice?

  17. #1392
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    Fire fighter. I'm confused by the question. Are you saying the solution is a license to become a cop will solve everything?
    I'm saying if we're going to give anyone a special privilege, like qualified immunity and a general benefit of the doubt in all sorts of he said/she said situations, that requiring a (revokable) license to practice that profession is the absolute least we can do. As it is now, even when a cop is fired that just means he gets a job in the next town over. That's idiotic.

  18. #1393
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    America Burning- What’s it Like Where You Live?

    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    CA dealt with the Panther by banning open carry. I don't recall the NRA having much to say about it. The only reason there are states with open carry is because the powers that be aren't feeling threatened by the kind of people who are carrying. The minute they do feel threatened by people with guns the guns will be taken away. Sure a bunch of cops and ATF and soldiers will die in the process but they are expendable cannon fodder--plenty of out of work young people ready to take their place.

    Look how the 1967 Detroit riots were put down--National Guard and US active duty military, tanks and machine guns. There were active firefights with shooting from both sides. Some people hiding on the floors of their apartments were killed by 50 cal machine gun fire through the brick walls. There were rumors of sniping before the troops were called in but it was never proven. So you had an invasion of a community with armed resistance and it was put down in 48 hours. The community didn't have AR15's like they might have today but while the police may sometimes be outgunned the Guard and the Army will never be.
    Well than we are all fucked. I suppose I should ask the Kings guard for mercy.
    You also just demonstrated that most gun laws were historically rooted in racism.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  19. #1394
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    Protest against police violence in my little town tomorrow. Judging be posts on FB it's gonna be like the last peaceful protest.

    Did you get permission from Glademaster to post his video?


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  20. #1395
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    Bob Kroll, the Minneapolis Police Union head, is explicitly antagonistic towards the community at large, why shouldn’t he get more blame?
    He's voted into his position by the union members (the police force, other than upper management). If the police force disagreed with what he says/does, he would be voted out (maybe he will after this recent incident). I personally disagree with the "explicitly antagonistic" attitude of police union heads. But again, back to the adversarial collective process with the the city, the city is free to fight back against union.

    One of the main sticking points of the collective bargaining process with the Seattle police is the disciplinary and arbitration process. The city argues it's currently too easy for cops to do wrong and either not be adequately punished or not be fired. I'm sure the union would give in some on this particular issue if city gave them, say, a 20% pay raise. My point is, everything is up for negotiation. The union decides what is important to them. The city decides what is important to them. I find it frustrating that blame is put on the union when it takes two to tango (but mayors, politicians, and high paid administrators like it this way; throw those rookie cops under the bus).

  21. #1396
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    You also just demonstrated that most gun laws were historically rooted in racism.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/o...s-madison.html

    officers too

    They got a name for the winners in the world

    http://procatinator.com/?cat=80

  22. #1397
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    Quote Originally Posted by ml242 View Post
    Overseer.

  23. #1398
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    Quote Originally Posted by oppressed intellectual minority member broseph View Post
    legal reform
    Attachment 330516
    This has about as much chance of moving forward as anything else that would actually solve anything. Still. It's not coming from a Republican or a Democrat and that's the only reason they have to oppose it. SCOTUS has run amok on this one. Explicitly against the law. Maybe they're getting ready to check themselves, but not fast enough, obviously.

    https://reason.com/2020/05/29/the-su...george-floyds/

  24. #1399
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    As it is now, even when a cop is fired that just means he gets a job in the next town over. That's idiotic.
    That's not true all of the time. If a cop is fired for committing a dishonest act, or a serious crime (like a felony), he/she will likely never be a cop again, anywhere. The reason for this is cops have to testify and a prosecutor does not want to have a cop testify who has an impeachable offense (crimes/acts of dishonesty and felonies are impeachable offenses). Prosecutors must disclose "Brady" lists to defense attorneys (named after Brady v. Maryland) that lists all cops who have any previous wrongful acts that could conceivably be brought up in their testimony. Getting added to the "Brady" list does not automatically mean a cops career is over but it could.

    One reason you read about a cop fired from one jurisdiction ending up in another jurisdiction is the high costs to train a police officer. It happens a lot in Seattle. Seattle is a wealthy city, and has lots of money to train their cops. A Seattle cop gets canned for something not too terribly wrong and the surrounding, rural, jurisdictions (who cannot afford the same level of training) may be willing to overlook the wrongdoing and give that cop a second chance. The more highly trained, the more likely this would occur.

  25. #1400
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    police unions seem to work hard to allow cops to continue to be cops despite judgments against them

    However, unions have leveraged the collective-bargaining process to create labyrinthine procedural protections that can make it exceptionally difficult to investigate, discipline, or terminate officers. Some of the limits on investigation—such as delaying interviewing an officer after a critical incident for several “sleep cycles”—are based on faulty reasoning and have been thoroughly debunked by credible scientific research. Too often, discipline is precluded by unnecessary or inappropriate procedural violations; in some cities, for example, civilians can file a complaint only during a limited period after an incident, sometimes as short as 30 days. When officers are disciplined, that discipline is subject to grievance and arbitration procedures; at one agency, a study found that arbitrators “routinely cut in half” the severity of disciplinary sanctions imposed by agency management. Officers should have a right to appeal disciplinary findings, but only when they are arguing that the agency’s decision was arbitrary and capricious or that the agency did not act in good faith. By protecting bad officers, collective-bargaining agreements and state laws contribute to misconduct.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...police/612520/

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