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Thread: Ahmaud Arbery

  1. #751
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    It seems to me that the issue is really how American society has elected to handle it's mentally ill / homeless. It's hard to fault the cops in your story - at most, they had evidence of some misdemeanors. The fact that this homeless junky was up to no good doesn't mean there's conduct that the police can act on. What's lacking from the story is any sort of social welfare agency that the police could call in. Someone who could assess homeless junky's wellbeing and get the guy some help before he goes off his rocker and kills someone.
    In bumfuck Michigan? You may as well wish for world peace...

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    Quote Originally Posted by skaredshtles View Post
    In bumfuck Michigan? You may as well wish for world peace...
    Oh, I'm not delusional enough to think it'd actually happen.

    Just saying that you can't really fault a system that doesn't act preemptively when the system is only set up to act punitively. Cops don't prevent problems. They punish people for being problematic.

  3. #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Oh, I'm not delusional enough to think it'd actually happen.

    Just saying that you can't really fault a system that doesn't act preemptively when the system is only set up to act punitively. Cops don't prevent problems. They punish people for being problematic.
    Yeah - I totally agree with you. The good ol' US of A has failed on all sorts of fronts as a "civilized" nation.

  4. #754
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    Our city council is working to add another division to law enforcement staffed with licensed psychiatrists, psychologists, and social workers.. And no, they will NOT be "defunding" or replacing the police. And no, they won't be going on calls to potentially volatile situations totally unarmed. They will go WITH regular armed LEOs as an additional asset to help defuse situations, domestic matters, reports of people acting sketchy, etc. No doubt there will be pushback, cops not wanting to have to have another authority on site who can ask that they stand down rather than going in guns blazing. But, it is worth the effort to make incremental changes that may end up making the LEOs job easier and more rewarding saving more lives and seeing people at rock bottom turning it around rather than dying for acting stupid..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  5. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Our city council is working to add another division to law enforcement staffed with licensed psychiatrists, psychologists, and social workers.. And no, they will NOT be "defunding" or replacing the police. And no, they won't be going on calls to potentially volatile situations totally unarmed. They will go WITH regular armed LEOs as an additional asset to help defuse situations, domestic matters, reports of people acting sketchy, etc. No doubt there will be pushback, cops not wanting to have to have another authority on site who can ask that they stand down rather than going in guns blazing. But, it is worth the effort to make incremental changes that may end up making the LEOs job easier and more rewarding saving more lives and seeing people at rock bottom turning it around rather than dying for acting stupid..
    My wife did crisis for mental health in our county 25 years ago. They wouldn't go to any houses without the Sheriff. It was a win win for everyone. Nobody got shot. My wife didn't get harmed. And she helped quite a few people that were having a bad day. And whenever they transported someone who needed locked psychiatric inpatient care, they had mental health (my wife) along for the ride. This is rural VT. Unfortunately some other parts of Vermont have had some bad situations since then where LE shot first, asked questions later. They needed my wife along to defuse the situation. She still says that if she was doing it today, she would want LE along.

  6. #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by altacoup View Post
    There’s a big difference between a homeless junky and someone out for a jog
    They’re all the same!


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  7. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Our city council is working to add another division to law enforcement staffed with licensed psychiatrists, psychologists, and social workers.. And no, they will NOT be "defunding" or replacing the police. And no, they won't be going on calls to potentially volatile situations totally unarmed. They will go WITH regular armed LEOs as an additional asset to help defuse situations, domestic matters, reports of people acting sketchy, etc. No doubt there will be pushback, cops not wanting to have to have another authority on site who can ask that they stand down rather than going in guns blazing. But, it is worth the effort to make incremental changes that may end up making the LEOs job easier and more rewarding saving more lives and seeing people at rock bottom turning it around rather than dying for acting stupid..
    To me, this always seemed practical and sensible. There will be cultural resistance but I hope to see more of these take root.

    Back in my younger and more impressionable days, I used to hang out with a bunch of douchebag cops. They'd all complain that the vast majority of their calls were dealing with some sort of domestic dispute and typically fueled by alcohol. To use their words, these people just needed a baby sitter and someone to tell them to calm the fuck down. They'd lament not getting time for real criminals and real crime... so win, win?

  8. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    The entire time I understood the risk of having some junky mental case prowling around all the time. The police won’t do shit about it, if I do anything I’m in the position of these Mcmichaels guys, where normal people like all of you think it’s inherently wrong and illegal to defend your property and neighborhood, so I did nothing, the police did nothing, and we all got stolen from and eventually he killed one of us.

    If I’d have stopped this guy though, the social justice outcry would have been HE’S JUST CAMPING! He’s just out for a walk! That could have been any of us, I camp, I walk! These vigilantes, interfering with everybody trying to jog and walk.
    Most states allow you to use deadly force to stop serious felonies you know the kind that people can be injured or killed, defending your property or neighborhood would seem to fall into the misdemeanor category, you can't "stop" a guy just based on suspicion like the McMicheals did. It's easy to vilify someone based on their appearance or their current situation in life like being homeless and an addict but nobody wants to actually try to help them and treat them like human beings. You keep going on about being treated badly based solely on your race but I'm starting to get the impression it's has other contributing factors...like maybe you were acting like an asshole
    “I have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.”

  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoqpass View Post
    You keep going on about being treated badly based solely on your race but I'm starting to get the impression it's has other contributing factors...
    Careful now...

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  10. #760
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    Ahmaud Arbery

    Listening to an interesting piece on NPR about how the prosecution focused on “assumptions and driveway decisions” rather than paint this as a racial bias motivated crime

    Just interesting from a CJ strategy perspective at minimum. Prolly discussed here already sorry I didn’t really follow the coverage.

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  11. #761
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    Yeti - is this the case?
    https://www.uppermichiganssource.com...suspect-found/

    Sounds like the guy was mentally ill, if they are requiring a competency hearing. In the photos he looks pretty put together for a homeless guy

    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    It seems to me that the issue is really how American society has elected to handle it's mentally ill / homeless. It's hard to fault the cops in your story - at most, they had evidence of some misdemeanors. The fact that this homeless junky was up to no good doesn't mean there's conduct that the police can act on. What's lacking from the story is any sort of social welfare agency that the police could call in. Someone who could assess homeless junky's wellbeing and get the guy some help before he goes off his rocker and kills someone.
    This^^^
    In our society you can’t throw a mentally ill person in jail or mental institution unless there is good evidence - before the fact - that s/he’s a danger to self or others. Gonna guess in this case that he didn’t present that way when the cops interviewed him before the killing.

    Damn sad situation

  12. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jong Lafitte View Post
    Listening to an interesting piece on NPR about how the prosecution focused on “assumptions and driveway decisions” rather than paint this as a racial bias motivated crime

    Just interesting from a CJ strategy perspective at minimum. Prolly discussed here already sorry I didn’t really follow the coverage.

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    Seems like the Feds will be focusing on the racial bias aspect - "hate crimes" 'n all.

  13. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    It seems to me that the issue is really how American society has elected to handle it's mentally ill / homeless. It's hard to fault the cops in your story - at most, they had evidence of some misdemeanors. The fact that this homeless junky was up to no good doesn't mean there's conduct that the police can act on. What's lacking from the story is any sort of social welfare agency that the police could call in. Someone who could assess homeless junky's wellbeing and get the guy some help before he goes off his rocker and kills someone.
    Right, well, in my view, that’s likely why a retired cop homeowner who’s had a gun stolen in a burglary in a neighborhood experiencing repeated burglaries would try to stop a suspicious person and keep him from leaving until police get there to at least take a name so they have someone to investigate if the burglaries continue.

    You all, and I guess more or less everyone in general except dumbass me, agree to call that “false imprisonment”, a felony, so that when the guy charges at Dipshit Jr and tries to take his weapon he’s (I guess?) now legally unjustified in defending himself, so he’s supposed to (I guess?) just go passive and let the falsely imprisoned burglary suspect beat him up and take the weapon. I find that totally absurd.

    I think that makes it obvious that, functionally, anyone can prowl around and burglarize any place with a long police response time and if anyone stops you, falsely imprisoning you, they’re committing a felony, and if they don’t stop you and instead just call police, you just run away. I find that totally absurd.

    You think the shooting shouldn’t have happened because stopping a burglary suspect is false imprisonment, so burglars get a free pass anywhere with a long response time. People who live there should just accept the legal outcome here: their property is now a free-for-all for anyone who can run away faster than the police can respond. I find that totally absurd.

  14. #764
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    What I find absurd is how far all this keeps going over your head

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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    Right, well, in my view, that’s likely why a retired cop homeowner who’s had a gun stolen in a burglary in a neighborhood experiencing repeated burglaries would try to stop a suspicious person and keep him from leaving until police get there to at least take a name so they have someone to investigate if the burglaries continue.

    You all, and I guess more or less everyone in general except dumbass me, agree to call that “false imprisonment”, a felony, so that when the guy charges at Dipshit Jr and tries to take his weapon he’s (I guess?) now legally unjustified in defending himself, so he’s supposed to (I guess?) just go passive and let the falsely imprisoned burglary suspect beat him up and take the weapon. I find that totally absurd.

    I think that makes it obvious that, functionally, anyone can prowl around and burglarize any place with a long police response time and if anyone stops you, falsely imprisoning you, they’re committing a felony, and if they don’t stop you and instead just call police, you just run away. I find that totally absurd.

    You think the shooting shouldn’t have happened because stopping a burglary suspect is false imprisonment, so burglars get a free pass anywhere with a long response time. People who live there should just accept the legal outcome here: their property is now a free-for-all for anyone who can run away faster than the police can respond. I find that totally absurd.
    Arbery wasn’t a burglary suspect. The gun stolen from a car wasn’t burglary. Do you know what burglary is? There were no burglaries reported in the neighborhood, only two thefts from unlocked cars, in both cases the items reported stolen were firearms. The McMichaels admitted that they didn’t know if Arbery had done anything. They saw a black man running through the neighborhood and thought they would pursue and detain him. Nothing about this is justifiable or supports your narrative.

    You lament being treated this way yourself but seem okay with any civilian detaining a random stranger based on a hunch.


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  16. #766
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    IAS doesn’t seem able to think objectively with his brain. His thoughts are extremely biased based on his own subjective emotions and his “whoa is me” victim mentality.

    Pretty comical at this point.


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  17. #767
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    Based on IAS's POV, anyone who reads nextdoor.com should be within their rights to detain anyone at any time. I mean, every day I read about crimes on nextdoor, in my neighborhood or nearby ones. And anyone I don't know walking or jogging through my neighborhood is inherently suspicious and a potential thief, right? Especially if they are black, apparently. So I should be able to grab my glock and make them stick around until the police can come and properly question them. But this case says otherwise, and that's a damn shame.

    Good lord, how can you not see how fucked up that is? To think any part of that is ok?
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  18. #768
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    About the car getting broken into and the gun stolen….the police officers testimony….
    In testimony, Rash then told the court he had responded about two months before - on Dec. 7, 2020 - to an entering auto call at the neighboring house.

    "Did they have video from the front of their house?" prosecutor Linda Dunikoski asked the officer.

    "Yes ma'am."

    "And did you watch that video?"

    "Yes ma'am."

    "And what was the person who went into their Jeep and stole their guns? White, Black, Hispanic, Asian?"

    "Based on the video it appeared to be a white male“
    “I have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.”

  19. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    So I should be able to grab my glock and make them stick around until the police can come and properly question them.
    This part is especially bizarre given that he's personally a victim of police lying and witnesses making false/misleading statements during a criminal investigation, and having to plead guilty to a crime he claims not to have committed because of it.

  20. #770
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    So I should be able to grab my glock and make them stick around until the police can come and properly question them.
    Once you hit the assumed suspect with your truck anything goes. And if they reach for your gun, it is self defense.
    They got a name for the winners in the world

    http://procatinator.com/?cat=80

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    About 20 years ago I found a guy on ebay who would trade a Subaru my work truck, so I drove to Jackson MS and did the deal. The car was a piece of shit, and it overheated right away. This sleazy used car dealer and I took the car across town to this shop. Riding back with him, all these areas looked the same to me, but you’d go from all white people to all black people and back and forth as we went through town. He had put this pistol on the console, which was disconcerting, and he’d kind of hover around it and drive really aggressive in the black neighborhoods, which again…seemed totally weird and made me kind of nervous, like wtf is this guy so scared about, is this how people live here?
    Eventually I got out of there, and the car started running hot again near Shreveport. So I got a cheap room and brought the car to a dealership and spent a week on foot in Shreveport. This was still when you’d look at the map in a phone book and jot down directions on scratch paper, so I’m walking back to the motel and it’s the same segregation thing as Jackson, everything looks the same except all black, then all white, back and forth.
    On my hike back I stopped in this little store to get a coffee, and I was just smoking outside with my coffee, thinking about life and my broken down car and whatever, and this nice black guy comes over and starts with something like, basically, what are you doing here…so I explain, and I think it must have been pretty clear I wasn’t from there. So he nicely kind of explains this insane segregation, and that I’m walking through an area, I’m at a store white people don’t go, and he kinda lines me out on where I needed to walk to, I guess, avoid racial problems or whatever. I was kind of amazed, and really thankful to have met the right guy at the right time, and also pretty grossed out by that whole dynamic. I guess I hadn’t realized it was so strict like that, but at least there, they immediately saw me and were like wtf is this white guy doing here. I was left kind of uneasy about that whole trip.

    Years later I delivered a motorcycle to a guy in Atlanta. I meet this buyer at a gas station, all black folks…I’m thinking is this like Jackson or Meridian or Shreveport where I shouldn’t be here and people are going to notice. Nope, no big deal, head off to guy’s house, everything’s mixed, everybody was nice, no weird racial stuff at all.

    Once, 10ish years ago, in rural Arkansas kinda northwest of Memphis, I saw this real kkk-looking lifted truck with a bunch of big and small confederate stickers and gun stickers and stuff all over it. I got closer at this intersection and it was a black guy in a cowboy hat driving it. It was a real moment of complete confusion: I totally don’t get the south, I’m never going to get it, people are complicated, shit’s weird, I don’t get it.

  22. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    Based on IAS's POV, anyone who reads nextdoor.com should be within their rights to detain anyone at any time. I mean, every day I read about crimes on nextdoor, in my neighborhood or nearby ones. And anyone I don't know walking or jogging through my neighborhood is inherently suspicious and a potential thief, right? Especially if they are black, apparently. So I should be able to grab my glock and make them stick around until the police can come and properly question them. But this case says otherwise, and that's a damn shame.

    Good lord, how can you not see how fucked up that is? To think any part of that is ok?
    Reading nextdoor isn’t the same thing as seeing a guy prowling around your neighbor’s place, then when you see them they run away instead of introducing themselves.

  23. #773
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    " ...I meet this buyer at a gas station, all black folks..." ".... and this nice black guy comes over ...."
    "... it was a black guy in a cowboy hat...."
    You miss Aunt Jemima don't you?
    “I have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.”

  24. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    This part is especially bizarre given that he's personally a victim of police lying and witnesses making false/misleading statements during a criminal investigation, and having to plead guilty to a crime he claims not to have committed because of it.
    It’s not a claim

    Fuck you

  25. #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    Reading nextdoor isn’t the same thing as seeing a guy prowling around your neighbor’s place, then when you see them they run away instead of introducing themselves.
    the three stooges said they heard about burglaries on fb while on the stand.
    They got a name for the winners in the world

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