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Thread: Ahmaud Arbery

  1. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetzen View Post
    More often than not, they overlap. Plenty of times they are concurrent to each other too.
    Except for when they don't. The law is intended to be applied equally. Moral are personal. This is why vigilante justice does not work. For example: the Arbery case

  2. #727
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    "she was asking for it"

  3. #728
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    And to think I was maligned for calling out the fallacy of this being a watershed moment for racial justice. JFC, there are some truly horrific people who participate in this place.
    The truth doesn't care about your feelings.

  4. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    You know what it’s like to be you. Does your ethnic group have a long history of slavery, servitude, discrimination and lynching?
    This is it right here^. Unfairly victimized while white or a POC? That sucks, inexcusable and is something no one should have to suffer; no need to diminish anyone's experience as a victim. But, I hope, one could also understand that POC have centuries of racial indignities and are still up against institutionalized and cultural bigotry. Try to find that empathy where a minority might have a vastly different outcome and previous life experience when facing the system. Where being a victim may not be peak of your 'wronged' but also now against the full weight of institutions that not only seek to deny you justice but slanted enough to find you 'deserving' of being a victim or maybe even the culprit.

  5. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    JFC, there are some truly horrific people who participate in this place.
    You have vitriolic posts wishing death on people who post here. So to righteously declare that there are horrific people who post here is rich.

    That said, it would be an understatement for me to say that I'm extremely disappointed in IAS's posts in this thread, and for acting like the response he's getting is just "social media justice warriors" getting their panties in a bunch, rather than intelligent people he knows, calling him out on some really awful takes. I hope he steps back and reflects more on this.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
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  6. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by glademaster View Post
    JFC, there are some truly horrific people who participate in this place.
    Go fuck yourself you miserable shit.

  7. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    Except for when they don't. The law is intended to be applied equally. Moral are personal. This is why vigilante justice does not work. For example: the Arbery case
    I think we might be talking past each other here. Arbery’s killers were both morally lacking in their actions, and thankfully found legally responsible for their criminal vigilantism.

  8. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetzen View Post
    I think we might be talking past each other here. Arbery’s killers were both morally lacking in their actions, and thankfully found legally responsible for their criminal vigilantism.
    You and I may agree but the convicted probably feel differently and the victim is dead. I'm a gun owner with a CCP but I don't get to legally impart my morals on society with a firearm. I also know what my rights are but leave my pistol and home and avoid confrontational situations. I'm rather get my ass kicked than legally shoot someone.

    That's why I feel this thread is off the rails. Its a quantum leap from reprehensible thoughts and feelings to shooting people.

  9. #734
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    Here a citizen's arrest is permitted, subject to the requirement that the criminal action (must be listed in the Criminal Code) was directly observed. Detention is permitted, to what is 'reasonable' to obtain compliance with such order. Canucks can't carry firearms for the purpose of self defence or detention of people outside of law enforcement. Period.
    How could detaining an individual as a citizen ever result in the death of a person unless lethal force was intended. I.E. not by accident? Self defence here does not allow for the intentional death by another. If you have martial arts training that included lethal means, you have an obligation to keep everyone breathing. You can always walk away.
    No firearm in Canada is permitted for self defence here, double so for using a restricted (handgun) weapon. Period. I just don't get American firearm culture. Put it this way, do you use a human silhouette for target practise, or just a bullseye?

    I agree with the convictions. This death was preventable and should not have occurred IMO.

  10. #735
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    Well said.
    What we have here is an intelligence failure. You may be familiar with staring directly at that when shaving. .
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  11. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCMtnHound View Post
    Here a citizen's arrest is permitted, subject to the requirement that the criminal action (must be listed in the Criminal Code) was directly observed. Detention is permitted, to what is 'reasonable' to obtain compliance with such order. Canucks can't carry firearms for the purpose of self defence or detention of people outside of law enforcement. Period.
    How could detaining an individual as a citizen ever result in the death of a person unless lethal force was intended. I.E. not by accident? Self defence here does not allow for the intentional death by another. If you have martial arts training that included lethal means, you have an obligation to keep everyone breathing. You can always walk away.
    No firearm in Canada is permitted for self defence here, double so for using a restricted (handgun) weapon. Period. I just don't get American firearm culture. Put it this way, do you use a human silhouette for target practise, or just a bullseye?

    I agree with the convictions. This death was preventable and should not have occurred IMO.
    Here fear of death for minor infractions is intended to keep certain marginalized people in line.. At least that's what those ammosexuals seem to think.. Add in fear of Hell and God as a cop like authority figure... hence all cops are seen as godlike.. So why not let everyone else play cop too?? amirite???
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  12. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCMtnHound View Post
    Here a citizen's arrest is permitted, subject to the requirement that the criminal action (must be listed in the Criminal Code) was directly observed. Detention is permitted, to what is 'reasonable' to obtain compliance with such order. Canucks can't carry firearms for the purpose of self defence or detention of people outside of law enforcement. Period.
    How could detaining an individual as a citizen ever result in the death of a person unless lethal force was intended. I.E. not by accident? Self defence here does not allow for the intentional death by another. If you have martial arts training that included lethal means, you have an obligation to keep everyone breathing. You can always walk away.
    No firearm in Canada is permitted for self defence here, double so for using a restricted (handgun) weapon. Period. I just don't get American firearm culture. Put it this way, do you use a human silhouette for target practise, or just a bullseye?

    I agree with the convictions. This death was preventable and should not have occurred IMO.
    Well shucks, here in 'Merica we only shoot to incapacitate, we don't shoot to kill...https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...s/rolleyes.gif
    well not really...we have a bunch of trigger happy wanna be vigilantes that think it's people of color coming to loot them of their big screen and Xbox
    “I have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.”

  13. #738
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    rather get my ass kicked than legally shoot someone.
    Amen. That's what I'm most disappointed about in all these cases- beyond who started it there is some responsibility to not act stupid. Accidents happen, but I don't see anyone dying as the most likely outcome of these 'feared for my life' confrontations if there were no weapons brought out.

    This case also reminded me of Trayvon Martin. As I recall, the guy who killed him was just as guilty but I guess he was in the right state.

  14. #739
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    ^^^^^If there had been video of Zimmerman?? How often is justice in these murders delivered without damning video??

    As for guns in general, the fewer people carrying guns, the lower the chances of folks getting super angry and acting stupid with FATAL results. Who here hasn't ever been so pissed in traffic that they might have pulled a gun if they had one? It's really better for most mortals to not have that temptation.


    Instead what we've got is the "well if they have a gun I want one too" objections..
    Last edited by SumJongGuy; 11-29-2021 at 07:21 AM.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  15. #740
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Yeti--so some Black and Latino people and Indians are racists. That's no surprise to anyone. So what's your point?
    .
    A poster wrote that I could never understand what it’s like to be confronted at gunpoint for being the wrong race, I was explaining how that’s untrue, at least to some degree.
    Last edited by ill-advised strategy; 11-29-2021 at 09:51 AM.

  16. #741
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    All summer there was some bum rustling around in the woods near my house.
    Piles of trash and dirty needles, whatever. Police do nothing. I saw this guy prowling around a couple of the neighbor businesses late at night. Police come and talk to him while he’s there trying to get into one of the businesses, let him walk away.
    One night I couldn’t sleep, so I’m working in the garage at 3 or 4am. It’s super quiet, can hear train horns miles across town, trash trucks working far away, seagulls on their rookery island 1/2 mile away…I hear gravel footsteps outside the garage door. Then slow footsteps around to the window, I can’t see out, light’s on. Long pause. Then footsteps off into the woods.
    Maybe a week-ish later, this guy stabbed my elderly neighbor to death. I didn’t know the guy, next street over, used to sit outside in his wheelchair on nice days.

    The entire time I understood the risk of having some junky mental case prowling around all the time. The police won’t do shit about it, if I do anything I’m in the position of these Mcmichaels guys, where normal people like all of you think it’s inherently wrong and illegal to defend your property and neighborhood, so I did nothing, the police did nothing, and we all got stolen from and eventually he killed one of us.

    If I’d have stopped this guy though, the social justice outcry would have been HE’S JUST CAMPING! He’s just out for a walk! That could have been any of us, I camp, I walk! These vigilantes, interfering with everybody trying to jog and walk.

    After all this, no cop comes past and apologizes for not doing their job. None of this is in the news about it, the fact that he’d been skulking around the neighborhood all summer and the cops won’t deal with it, and we can’t deal with it because of how people like you, the posters in this thread who think stopping a burglar should be “false imprisonment”. So we just let it go until he stabs a guy. Then the police and the lawyers and the reporters get to work.

  17. #742
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    There’s a big difference between a homeless junky and someone out for a jog

  18. #743
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    There’s a big difference between a homeless junky and someone out for a jog

  19. #744
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    All summer there was some bum rustling around in the woods near my house.
    So there may be some contextual relevancy and public expectations space between racism motivated, confederate flag waving, vigilantes killing an unarmed black guy and officials in law enforcement failing to adequately 'protect and serve' their communities.

    cool, cool.

  20. #745
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    ias, your analogous experience misses a key point: nobody has the right to preemptively kill a suspected criminal. That's why BLM exists. It's why there are at least two fuck the police threads here, and legion across social media.

    I'm not a sjw. I'm just angry that extrajudicial killings happen on an all too regular basis - whether it's the actual cops, washed up ex-cops, or self-appointed wannabes. Vigilantism isn't noble. The system is definitely broken, but street justice isn't going to fix it, because it's part of the problem.

    I won't patronize you by saying I get where you're coming from, because I know I don't really, but IMO you have every right to be angry. It just seems focused in the wrong direction.

  21. #746
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    Meanwhile someone else had three neighbors who didn't like some black guy hanging around and checking out a construction site so they got their guns and chased the guy down in their trucks and shot him when he tried to protect himself from someone pointing a shotgun at him. I'd rather take my chances with a homeless guy in the woods than those three fuckers.. But, if the homeless guy in the woods was captured on my ring camera stealing shit off my porch or a neighbors I'm calling the cops. I might also find out who owns the property where they are camping and let them know someone is squatting there. Nothing more, nothing less..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  22. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    A poster wrote that I could never understand what it’s like to be confronted at gunpoint for being the wrong race, I was explaining how that’s untrue, at least to some degree.
    Knowing what it's like to be confronted at gunpoint--whether due to racism or anything else--is one thing. Living in a country where, because of your race, it is likely to happen repeatedly and there's no place you can go where it won't is another.

    There was no way to know the prowler in your other post was going to stab someone. I hope you aren't the kind of person who would shoot a prowler. No one deserves to die for stealing. If the guy came at you with a knife then yes, you would have been justified shooting. As far as the cops not doing anything that's another issue, but deputizing the populace isn't the answer. That way lies vigilante lynching.

  23. #748
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    So IAS is mad he couldn’t legally chase and murder the mental bum prowling his neighborhood?

    Yikes.


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  24. #749
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    After all this, no cop comes past and apologizes for not doing their job. None of this is in the news about it, the fact that he’d been skulking around the neighborhood all summer and the cops won’t deal with it, and we can’t deal with it because of how people like you, the posters in this thread who think stopping a burglar should be “false imprisonment”. So we just let it go until he stabs a guy. Then the police and the lawyers and the reporters get to work.
    It seems to me that the issue is really how American society has elected to handle it's mentally ill / homeless. It's hard to fault the cops in your story - at most, they had evidence of some misdemeanors. The fact that this homeless junky was up to no good doesn't mean there's conduct that the police can act on. What's lacking from the story is any sort of social welfare agency that the police could call in. Someone who could assess homeless junky's wellbeing and get the guy some help before he goes off his rocker and kills someone.

  25. #750
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    ias, your analogous experience misses a key point: nobody has the right to preemptively kill a suspected criminal
    and I'll go one step further...it would be nice if people did a consistently better job about not interjecting themselves in situation where they fear for their lives.

    Admittedly I'm not super well informed on the Arbery case but it seems to be pretty far removed from defending your property and well being.

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