How to run a BC Lodge next winter??

[LeeLau]

I have a group of 12 + cook booked for a BC backcountry lodge next February. Am holding off on handing over the balance of the deposit pending a policy on (i) cleaning; and (ii) credits and/or refund if COVID resurgence either forces cancellation of lodge-based touring skiing for next season or prevents non Canadians from getting to the lodge.

I personally would be happy with a credit but I'd have to check with the others in the group

[paige.]

Sorcerer and blanket still do the bucket brigade, maybe it won't be with clients but just guides and custodians ?

I was actually at Sorcerer the last trip before they shutdown (and we made the call to pull out was it was announced that BC had community spread). For that trip everyone still helped with hauling the water, with the expectation that we would wash our hands as soon as we got back inside afterwards. Honestly even with us hauling water, the real risk would have been meal times. We had half the normal number of guests, didn't have access to the kitchen and weren't allowed to help with the dishes; but everyone was still passing around the dishes at meals and handling serving utensils and the like. That's where the biggest changes would have to happen because just having fewer people didn't help much.

Honestly there just isn't enough space unless you force everyone to stay in their rooms and stagger meal times or something. And I can't see anyone paying twice the normal rate if that's the experience they're getting. You're better off targeting locals, and only taking groups that book the full lodge. I see myself feeling a lot more comfortable doing something like this next year if I know everyone that's going to be there.

[Angle Parking]

In the posts above, several people have argued that it's not so much the cleanliness or water issues in the lodges / heli / cat outfits that are the problem, but rather the fact that said lodges draw guests from abroad and that they brought it in. Ergo, 'people came in with it but the lodges were not vectors'. I'm not any sort of medical health professional but I can say without a hint of a doubt that this is categorically wrong. And the facts support this view. I am not going to mention any businesses by name, but there are several lodges that had sick guests come in and within days everyone (other guests, cooks, guides...) had it. And then those individuals left the lodges and spread it around. 3 of the first 5 cases in Northern BC had direct link to ski lodges, as in they got it from guests at a lodge, and who knows how much community spread that caused.

Are backcountry skiing outfits unclean places, unhygienic places? Not at all, not the ones I've been to anyway. But they are what they are and the heli / cat / bc lodge scene has got to be asking themselves some pretty serious questions right now. BC Lodges have played a significant role in spreading this thing and that's a fact that has to be dealt with.

[XXX-er]

I disagree AP , shit happens as they say so IME getting the shits will really kill yer skin track stoke, but stay close to that out house for a couple days and thats the end of it, GI situations do happen, but they don't kill, not to say an op didnt have GI contamination issues but they are not contagious, they don't kill anyone and you can mitigate that

BUT Covid is a totally different game cuz its a highly contagious virus which can get around by airborne transmission and that is the big problem to overcome ( hence the 6 ft/ 1 meter /1 moose rule ) in a confined space like a heli or a hut

so Covid can be passed without touching an infected surface and it is a proven killer, theoreticaly a clean person with Covid in a clean hut with correct food handling protocol could still infect everyone in the hut

but then It takes awhile for Covid to get rolling ( 5-9 day incubation ? ) so anybody showing signs of Covid on a trip caught it days before they got to the lodge or hut, so the people who get infected on a ski week won't get sick at the hut but they might give it to everyone they know back home, they may be an asympotomatic carrier or maybe they get a mild flu or maybe really sick but recover or maybe they die

but if the timing is right besides Covid infecting everyone in the hut, the client who brought it in could get hit really badly right there on the trip

[skifishbum]

Sorcerer and blanket still do the bucket brigade, maybe it won't be with clients but just guides and custodians ?

the fact that Al and his kid don't like to spend any money to improve the blanket
is why the bomber gits mine
the blankets great terrain
marginal operation

[DougW]

the fact that Al and his kid don't like to spend any money to improve the blanket
is why the bomber gits mine
the blankets great terrain
marginal operation

Certainly agree with first part but not second, been to both and would not go back to Blanket unless supper cheap as terrain wise Sorcerer is in a different league

[DougW]

Ok , solutions as they probably will open, if cruise lines are going to open... Have to have been self isolation for 1 week before trip, two week for international air travel. Trips now 2 weeks long? Maybe no one could meet that? Would mean couldn't hit ski hill for week before trip.

[skifishbum]

I thought Al pretty much gave the blanket to his kid
whose running it as camp capow and fully guided and catered only now
looks like 3 free beers a night though
aint never scorcered but in a 1/2 dozen blankets sure skied some sick terrain right outta the hut bluebird and elevated avvy dump downs of limited vis
the morning water bucket brigade's a fix this sad joke though

[paulster2626]

We're all going to have to start attacking the transmission of this stupid virus. The problem is we can infect others before we show symptoms, so it's gonna be masks. We're all going to be wearing them all the time. Everyone will need to wear a mask when inside enclosed spaces with others. Can't take it off around other people if they have theirs off too, for eating/drinking/whatever. Gonna have to wait your turn. Keep your moist talking droplets to yourselves and this will die down.

I would assume costs for things will go up since less people can no longer safely fit in to the spaces we're normally packed in to like sardines. The next 12-24 months are going to be weird but we will fondly look back on that time we all had to wear those stupid masks all the time and what a pain in the ass it was.

[XXX-er]

https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/covi...mO54wl9j_sUhRw

Great artical on how Covid gets transmitted, Its not real long so read the whole thing, reading this^^ I don't see a safe way forward

I have been practising the distancing and yes I am going out to by a mask today ....I think its the new norm


as for walking vs running water I have been part of an instal, its a lot of fucking work you gotta have the lodge in the right place where there is a water source but running water for cooking & cold showers is nice and if you got enough for nano hydro even better

[DougW]

There are two issues. How can workers be safe, the Worksafe BC issue. As what risks can clients take.

Can't see how to deal with first. But can see forward on second if a group rents out lodge. Of course would be new waiver which absolves owner of all covid liability and group could then determine what safety things to do. Could assume that everyone is good and don't do a thing other than the normal don't get everyone sick with poop germs. So self guided and self catered so no WCB is involved.

[XXX-er]

Entirely self guided/ self catered AND Canadian cuz at this point there is no international travel

I don't think many Canadians are in any hurry for the Can/USA border to open

[ShakeMeUp]

In the same boat as Lee for next February. Lodge/guide(s)/cook reserved. In our favor, we have the entire lodge for our group, but when I step back and think about it, there are a lot of potential wrinkles and scenarios that could come up. Obviously the border status, how GAH decides to operate next winter, and how our guide and cook decide to operate are out of our hands. Even then, if everything is going well and on track, all it takes is one sick person somewhere in the chain to throw a wrench in the entire enterprise. 9 months is both a long time away and coming right up in the grand scheme of things... Definitely a worthy discussion.

[Angle Parking]

I disagree AP , shit happens as they say so IME getting the shits will really kill yer skin track stoke, but stay close to that out house for a couple days and thats the end of it, GI situations do happen, but they don't kill, not to say an op didnt have GI contamination issues but they are not contagious, they don't kill anyone and you can mitigate that

BUT Covid is a totally different game cuz its a highly contagious virus which can get around by airborne transmission and that is the big problem to overcome ( hence the 6 ft/ 1 meter /1 moose rule ) in a confined space like a heli or a hut

so Covid can be passed without touching an infected surface and it is a proven killer, theoreticaly a clean person with Covid in a clean hut with correct food handling protocol could still infect everyone in the hut

but then It takes awhile for Covid to get rolling ( 5-9 day incubation ? ) so anybody showing signs of Covid on a trip caught it days before they got to the lodge or hut, so the people who get infected on a ski week won't get sick at the hut but they might give it to everyone they know back home, they may be an asympotomatic carrier or maybe they get a mild flu or maybe really sick but recover or maybe they die

but if the timing is right besides Covid infecting everyone in the hut, the client who brought it in could get hit really badly right there on the trip

I'm not sure we are actually disagreeing about anything xxx-er. My broad point is that lodges have played a role in the spread of this thing. A small role but a unique one and one that certainly impacts the folks around here. So moving forward, lodges need to adapt to the new reality AND go above and beyond, given their vector status thus far. Questions need to be asked and I'm sure invested parties are asking those questions right now.

As to your comments on gestation period, case #3 in northern BC took place right here in our valley. It provides interesting case study. So the third case in Northern BC, was not a community spread scenario. It was brought in from a lodge. #3 was working at a ski lodge in the southern half of BC. Guests showed up at lodge where #3 was working. The guests (from U.S. PNW) had the beginning salvos of what felt like cold, but in the nascent stages of the pandemic, they figured they would go anyway. Mid-shift they did not feel great and got flown out. By the end of the shift, #3 was coughing. #3 leaves the lodge and gets flown in to the next lodge to the next gig. Right away #3 tells the individual running the lodge that she is coughing and just came from such and such a place. #3 is immediately told they will be flying out tomorrow. #3 gets flown out and #3 is now on the public health radar (given where #3 came from and what happened there) so gets told to go to hospital right away. A test administered and #3 isolates for a few days. Test comes back positive. #3 is told to drive straight home which is in our valley and isolate. #3 is in daily contact diaphone with public health authorities via phone. #3 isolates and is eventually told that all is good and they can reintegrate.

From my point of view, there are no real guilty parties or culprits or whatever in this story. The lodges did nothing wrong as far as I am concerned. The guests didn't do anything I myself didn't do in those early days. I guess my point is this. We are all confronting a new reality. In my field we are slowly opening back up but the new reality (for now and who knows how long) is vastly different than before. Treeplanting contractors in British Columbia are moving forward with the season but they are operating under a stringent and very, very expensive new reality. BC Lodges are in the same boat. Things are going to be very very different. More expensive. More who knows what else, but they are going to be different.

As for the greater theme of the thread, how do they run next year? No clues can be offered from my end, but much like the cruise ship industry, mere survival has to be on the radar, either that or the lodges become ultra, ultra exclusive and only cater to individuals who can afford to 'rent the whole place out' so to speak.

[XXX-er]

[QUOTE=Angle Parking;5979506]I'm not sure we are actually disagreeing about anything xxx-er. ...[/QUOTE}

no we are always pretty agreeable ^^ but must be how our conversations go

maybe cuz we get our weed from the same dealer ?

[Snow Dog]

The BC PHO (provincial health officer) has guidance for hotel sector and is [apparently] working on guidance for hostels and other shared accommodations. So wait and see.

You can read all the BC notices, orders and guidance here.

[raypruit]

having been to a few huts in BC, there's no way i'm going again until covid is no longer a thing. if anyone in your hut has it, you are getting it. i wouldn't be worried about the heli ride - people can wear masks and there's enough airflow in those helis. it's the huts - there is just not enough room to stay away from everyone. even if you have your own room, the hallways are too narrow, the dining rooms/common areas/tables are too small, everyone is touching everything you touch and no one can wash their hands (at least not at any of the huts i've been to), etc. i could maybe see it being doable if everyone stays in their rooms except to ski - meals brought to your room prison-style, leaving your room and gearing up in stages, but who the fuck wants to do that? and how does companion rescue work while distancing?

also, anecdotally, based on the ppl i know that do these trips and those i've met in huts (with a few exceptions), i see any significant cost increase being a serious threat to business. the huts with the best terrain (imho) all only do guided/catered now (unless you're willing to go super early or late season) and they cost around 2.5k for a week. a 1k increase in cost would be a non-starter for most of the ppl i've seen.

[skifishbum]

having been to a few huts in BC, there's no way i'm going again until covid is no longer a thing. if anyone in your hut has it, you are getting it. i wouldn't be worried about the heli ride - people can wear masks and there's enough airflow in those helis. it's the huts - there is just not enough room to stay away from everyone. even if you have your own room, the hallways are too narrow, the dining rooms/common areas/tables are too small, everyone is touching everything you touch and no one can wash their hands (at least not at any of the huts i've been to), etc. i could maybe see it being doable if everyone stays in their rooms except to ski - meals brought to your room prison-style, leaving your room and gearing up in stages, but who the fuck wants to do that? and how does companion rescue work while distancing?

also, anecdotally, based on the ppl i know that do these trips and those i've met in huts (with a few exceptions), i see any significant cost increase being a serious threat to business. the huts with the best terrain (imho) all only do guided/catered now (unless you're willing to go super early or late season) and they cost around 2.5k for a week. a 1k increase in cost would be a non-starter for most of the ppl i've seen.

there are still of huts that will let your group go unguided prime time
depending on your group not uncatered anymore though
if our 2022 becomes uncatered ill be fine with it
ive never been on a guided hut trip yet in 20
id really like to do battle abbey but that's a lot of money for a guide I don't want
best terrains a personal preference debateable thing
im glad were 2 winters out on our booking

[glademaster]

also, anecdotally, based on the ppl i know that do these trips and those i've met in huts (with a few exceptions), i see any significant cost increase being a serious threat to business. the huts with the best terrain (imho) all only do guided/catered now (unless you're willing to go super early or late season) and they cost around 2.5k for a week. a 1k increase in cost would be a non-starter for most of the ppl i've seen.

FWIW, I would be willing to stomach an extra $1k per week for a guided/catered hut trip. At the current prices I think these trips represent a pretty damn good value for your skiing dollar, and it would be worth it to me to pay more, because IMHO it's still a fair price for what you're getting.

I have a couple of trips booked for winter 20-21 and 21-22 to huts up there, so I'm curious to see what changes are implemented, or if I (as an American, unfortunately) can even get across the border this winter.

[Hammer-Down]

FWIW, I would be willing to stomach an extra $1k per week for a guided/catered hut trip. At the current prices I think these trips represent a pretty damn good value for your skiing dollar, and it would be worth it to me to pay more, because IMHO it's still a fair price for what you're getting.

I have a couple of trips booked for winter 20-21 and 21-22 to huts up there, so I'm curious to see what changes are implemented, or if I (as an American, unfortunately) can even get across the border this winter.

Most undervalued ski experience out there, IMO, relatively speaking

[LongShortLong]

Erin Bromage's blog is a good summary of what we know now, and it doesn't look good for indoor group settings. The USA looks to be a covid cluster, so clients from there might be too high risk. A few other regions have their shit together, maybe more will. If there's a way to safely travel, you may be able to assemble a clean crew of guests. Even for covid-endemic regions, with all the WFH these days (especially among guest demographics) 2-week quarantines may be reasonable though with additional cost for the client. A shorter quarantine and some not-yet-available screening test may be workable.

Alternately, it's 8 months to January. We'll know more then. By then, we may have treatments that provide short-term immunity or otherwise disrupt transmission. If so, I'd guess the skiing crowd may be more likely to accept the risk of a novel treatment in order to do something fun. All the people involved want to make a ski adventure happen if at all possible, so that works in your favor. Also, many other industries have similar problems and want solutions sooner.

One thought is how important ski resorts are to the heli/lodge business. For me, I want to be in top shape before going on a trip. That means the resorts need to open in some form also.

[LeeLau]

there are still of huts that will let your group go unguided prime time
depending on your group not uncatered anymore though
if our 2022 becomes uncatered ill be fine with it
ive never been on a guided hut trip yet in 20
id really like to do battle abbey but that's a lot of money for a guide I don't want
best terrains a personal preference debateable thing
im glad were 2 winters out on our booking

Our 2021 trip for next year I'm organizing is unguided/catered. I'm still holding out for it to go because it's all our group with everyone we know. What I'm hoping for is there to be some sort of testing as it'll simplify things if we can all go in knowing that we're all "clean". Three of the group are Americans and my friends though and I don't think it's fair to leave them hanging if there's some sort of border issue. That's why I'm trying to get clarity from the hut owner so that my friends don't get stuck and out of money if they're messed around at the border. I also want to support the local economy as much we can

Like you I'm not that worried about the 2022 trips

[Angle Parking]

2500 is a smoking deal for a catered guided trip. It still represents significant outlay of cash however, and for folks like myself with young kids there is the extra cost of disappearing for a week. Nonetheless, I think an extra chunk of cash added on for sanitization costs or whatever you want to call it, so let's bring it up to 3000 for example, that is still pretty reasonable IMO.

[glademaster]

Yeah, I think around $3500-4000US for a catered/guided week would be the point where I would cry uncle, but I get that for many folks that's a whole lot of money to spend to walk uphill for 6 days and smell each other's BO.

For us Americans those trips were crazy deals for the last couple years. My guided/catered week last year ended up costing right around $1900US (minus tips). Given the exchange rate currently, the trip I have planned for this coming winter was even cheaper than that.

FTR, I'm hardly rolling in it, I'm just single and choose to spend the lion's share of my expendable income on skiing.

[Angle Parking]

Yeah, I think around $3500-4000US for a catered/guided week would be the point where I would cry uncle, but I get that for many folks that's a whole lot of money to spend to walk uphill for 6 days and smell each other's BO.

For us Americans those trips were crazy deals for the last couple years. My guided/catered week last year ended up costing right around $1900US (minus tips). Given the exchange rate currently, the trip I have planned for this coming winter was even cheaper than that.

A guy from Ogden on a trip I went on scored a last minute deal and with the exchange it cost him $1200 for the full package. That is a crazy deal.


3500-4500 US is too much IMO