What have you bought/upgraded today.

[Dee Hubbs]

Sorry, did you actually want to know, or would you have been happier not knowing?
I would want to know, a fake chain can chew up your $400 cassette, or $300 chainrings (on road bike.

Also add to the list to identify the counterfeits is:
- the stamping/branding is really off.

I also like how they put the sticker over the part that Shimano has the symbol for a hallow pin.

[buttahflake]

Thanks boys, I’ll let you know when they arrive if they are real or not.

[Dee Hubbs]

As to Rocky’s:
I am still blown away by my 21 Altitude, and it has gotten ‘bigger’ over time. Started as a very, very lightweight long travel (under 29 pounds), and turned into an enduro bruiser (coilover, ZEB, dh tires, etc).
Love it to pieces!
However, my daily driver on the less chunky trails around here is a 140/160 ‘20 Instinct, which I actually get more Downhill PR’s on (when there is pedaling involved).
That said, I would run the 19-20 platform again in a heartbeat if I couldn’t get the ‘21.
The Pinkbike price on the ‘20 Altitude is a hair high, but the condition looks good, and in this environment, everything is a bit elevated, price wise. The design just flat out works.

My Instinct C90 finally arrived the last week of July, days before I left for 6 weeks of work away.
I finally got home and built it up.
I'm super impressed so far.

[rideit]

What was your daily driver before, Dee? Be curious to hear your impressions on the new one, specifically the two wheelbase lengths and anti-squat when you get a chance to dive into the differences.

[XtrPickels]

anti-squat .

Rocky's tend to be relatively low, don't they? (Not saying it's a bad thing, just confirming).
I'd easily trade some anti-squat for less brake-squat on my longer travel bike. I could get over the slightly lower efficiency pretty quick.

[rideit]

The new Instinct and Altitude have higher anti squat than the previous generation, but I don’t know the details/graphs. I certainly have never been bothered by any braking performance with their four bar linkages. I find the new one crawls up technical stuff more easily, but I am in much better shape this year, so that might be part of it.

[Dee Hubbs]

I came from a 27.5 Intense Tracer, run in the 145 position with a 150 fork. The head angle was 66.5, effective seat tube was 74.5 and the wheelbase was 1175.
Initially biggest difference I feel (other than the 29 wheels) is the wheel base of 1209. I'm running the Ride9 chip in the neutral position initially to get my suspension dialed in. Currently the head angle is 65.7 and effective sets tube is 76.7, With a bit of time on the bike I'll play with the chip to see if I want to slacken it up as far 65.1 or steepen it out as tight as 66.2.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I’ve been Queso Pilled by Zero Friction Cycling:



Had been using Squirt, but I like that a waxed chain can be cleaned with boiling water instead of degreaser/solvents, and wax isn’t tacky like Squirt, so chain should stay cleaner. Also, Squirt appears to have some penetration issues, so it takes a couple applications to actually work itself into the chain.

I actually tried the Silca Super Secret Drip (in tub) first, with the hope that after an initial submerged application the chain would stay clean enough that I could just drip on more as needed, but Tahoe Moon Dust laughed at that plan.

I couldn’t care less about saving a couple watts from a lower friction chain, but the wear testing is what convinced me (and also confirmed my suspicions about wet lubes that I’ve held for years but could never confirm: they basically attract all dirt which turns the lube into grinding paste.)

Edit: one of these days I’ll figure out how to properly add pics, but not today!

[Touring_Sedan]

It's been a good couple of weeks for finding end of the year deals in the classifieds.

[cydwhit]

Bought a Deore build Patrol, tore basically everything off of it to build up a Sentinel for my partner, and then built it back up with a Zeb, Microshift, and Saints. Just need a new rear rotor and I'll be good to go!

[buttahflake]

Those Dura-Ace/XTR chains I ordered from Bike Tires Direct are the real deal, they just showed up in new, clean packaging and hollow pins. When I placed the order they were sitting on over 200 units, so you might want to check it out. Just pay attention when checking out they default to 6 items, I only wanted a couple so I had to adjust that before finalizing the purchase.

[sethschmautz]

I’ve been Queso Pilled by Zero Friction Cycling:

I've been using the graphene stuff from Absolute Black this year. Really like the freshly waxed feel but in dry and dusty conditions feel that they could use a drip application of some sort. The Absolute Black drip on is obscenely expensive but does seem to work. Does MSW have a drip on our do you just refresh with a full dunk when the chain is getting crunchy?

I like wax for the same reasons you mentioned.

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[J. Barron DeJong]

I've been using the graphene stuff from Absolute Black this year. Really like the freshly waxed feel but in dry and dusty conditions feel that they could use a drip application of some sort. The Absolute Black drip on is obscenely expensive but does seem to work. Does MSW have a drip on our do you just refresh with a full dunk when the chain is getting crunchy?

I like wax for the same reasons you mentioned.

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Molten Speed Wax only does the hot melt. Silca Super Secret Drip/Ceramic Speed UFO Drip/BananaSlip All-Weather Tungsten are all refined paraffin drip lubes which are basically an emulsion of the same stuff that’s in hot melt wax (Squirt and Smoove are also wax emulsions, but they’re slack wax with a higher percentage of oil in them, which is why they stay a bit gummy, and which also requires heavier duty cleaners instead of just being able to swish the chain around in a few changes of boiling water and have it come out nice and clean).

The refined wax drip lubes are completely compatible with the hot melt wax.

The issue with the drip waxes is they don’t penetrate easily, so the initial application - or any application after cleaning the chain - should really be submersive. And if I’m going submersive anyway, I actually think hot melt is easier to deal with.

That said, apparently Tahoe dust may be a bit unique. In the Zero Friction dry contamination testing (using dry loam) with any of the refined wax drip/molten wax lubes the chain stays clean enough that you could simply wipe off the outside and reapply as needed without having to do a deeper clean. If I could have gotten away with that routine I would have stuck with the Silca Super Secret.

[Dantheman]

Bought a Deore build Patrol, tore basically everything off of it to build up a Sentinel for my partner, and then built it back up with a Zeb, Microshift, and Saints. Just need a new rear rotor and I'll be good to go!

Handlebar orientation looks whack but otherwise that should be a great bruiser.

[cydwhit]

Handlebar orientation looks whack but otherwise that should be a great bruiser.

Yeah, it's a weird angle, had to go double check to make sure they're not actually that wild in real life haha. Pretty dang stoked.

[Andeh]

I'd love to hear what you think about the new Patrol. I'm fantasizing about the inevitable carbon version.

[GravityDT]

After a year+ on a Rascal I wanted something more playful while still being a decent climber. Wanted a bit more travel than my overforked Rascal (150mm Pike Ultimate up front). Currently have 2 xc rides and 2 days riding the lift at Big Sky. Operation Mullet is a smashing success. Bronson delivers…

[J. Barron DeJong]

I've been using the graphene stuff from Absolute Black this year.

Are you using the AB hot melt wax, drip, both?

I read the Zero Friction report on the Absolute Black hot melt and it was literally one of the worst lubes they’ve ever tested, which was a bit of a surprise since the AB drip was one of the best they’ve ever tested. Just horrible wear rates all around (clean, dry contamination, wet contamination) and very poor longevity before requiring re-lube.

Anyway, if you’re willing to to do the hot melt routine, Molten Speed Wax and Silca Super Secret Hot Melt should provide drastically better results than the AB stuff.

edit: just some context for those who aren’t aware of the Zero Friction testing: They’re doing controlled laboratory chain wear testing for lubes. Started as just doing it for themselves, but now being contracted by lube manufacturers to provide data during product development as well.

Testing starts with a clean environment, then moves through dry contamination and wet contamination. A top performing lube isn’t extending the life of the chain/drivetrain by something minor like 10-20%. The best lubes allow chains to last more than TEN TIMES as long as the worst performing lubes.

[sethschmautz]

Are you using the AB hot melt wax, drip, both?

I read the Zero Friction report on the Absolute Black hot melt and it was literally one of the worst lubes they’ve ever tested, which was a bit of a surprise since the AB drip was one of the best they’ve ever tested. Just horrible wear rates all around (clean, dry contamination, wet contamination) and very poor longevity before requiring re-lube.

Anyway, if you’re willing to to do the hot melt routine, Molten Speed Wax and Silca Super Secret Hot Melt should provide drastically better results than the AB stuff.

edit: just some context for those who aren’t aware of the Zero Friction testing: They’re doing controlled laboratory chain wear testing for lubes. Started as just doing it for themselves, but now being contracted by lube manufacturers to provide data during product development as well.

Testing starts with a clean environment, then moves through dry contamination and wet contamination. A top performing lube isn’t extending the life of the chain/drivetrain by something minor like 10-20%. The best lubes allow chains to last more than TEN TIMES as long as the worst performing lubes.

Good info, thanks! I have been using the hot melt and then adding the drip when needed. I'll take a look at the Silca. Do you have a link to the tests?

Seth

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[J. Barron DeJong]

Good info, thanks! I have been using the hot melt and then adding the drip when needed. I'll take a look at the Silca. Do you have a link to the tests?

Seth

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Link: https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/lubetesting/

Some summary charts are on that page, links to individual reviews/test results at bottom. Fair warning - dude could seriously use an editor so it takes some patience to work your way thru the individual reviews.

From my understanding the AB drip doesn’t play nice with any of the hot melt waxes, including AB’s, so probably not a good use of an extremely expensive lube doing that.

[sethschmautz]

From my understanding the AB drip doesn’t play nice with any of the hot melt waxes, including AB’s, so probably not a good use of an extremely expensive lube doing that.

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[J. Barron DeJong]

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I may have read to much into what the Zero Friction site was saying. It said not to use the AB drip over hot melt wax, but does only mention Silca and Molten Speed wax by name. They don’t sell the AB hot melt due to the poor performance in testing.

I’d still be hesitant to combine a very good (and expensive!) lube with another that performed so poorly. But, I have no experience with either of the AB lubes, so feel free to weight my opinion appropriately.

[XtrPickels]

Hot melt definitely penetrates better than any of the drip waxes.

The temp that you pull the chain can make a difference as well, if you wait until the wax is cooling and then pull it will have better coverage than if you pull when it's hot.

Drip is good for a few re-ups, but eventually you need to re-hot melt.

A hot melt Silca was good for ~70 miles on Kokopelli sandy dust before it needed a changing. (I carried 2 hot waxed chains and a small bottle of Synergetic as a "just in case".) That's about 35 miles better than a Squirt lubed chain the year before.

FWIW I believe Zero Friction found the waxes do not stick well to KMC chains.

[sethschmautz]

I may have read to much into what the Zero Friction site was saying. It said not to use the AB drip over hot melt wax, but does only mention Silca and Molten Speed wax by name. They don’t sell the AB hot melt due to the poor performance in testing.

I’d still be hesitant to combine a very good (and expensive!) lube with another that performed so poorly. But, I have no experience with either of the AB lubes, so feel free to weight my opinion appropriately.

No worries - I appreciate the input. I bought the small drip lube bottle ($15?) because it's stupid expensive but I had already started down this road and wanted to give it a try. I'll take a look at that link - thanks for sending it.

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[J. Barron DeJong]

Hot melt definitely penetrates better than any of the drip waxes.

The temp that you pull the chain can make a difference as well, if you wait until the wax is cooling and then pull it will have better coverage than if you pull when it's hot.

Drip is good for a few re-ups, but eventually you need to re-hot melt.

A hot melt Silca was good for ~70 miles on Kokopelli sandy dust before it needed a changing. (I carried 2 hot waxed chains and a small bottle of Synergetic as a "just in case".) That's about 35 miles better than a Squirt lubed chain the year before.

FWIW I believe Zero Friction found the waxes do not stick well to KMC chains.

Zero Friction says not to bother with trying to cool the wax before pulling the chain; that any additional wax that stays in the chain by doing that is getting squeezed out as soon as the load is applied to the chain.

And yes, they do say that wax doesn’t adhere as well to KMC chains, so longevity isn’t as good as with other brands.