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  1. #1
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    New Praxis Ski or PM Gear Kusala Re-Press Interest and Discussion Thread

    Starting this thread in response to the interest my WTB thread made in gear swap: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...Pow-or-Similar

    There has been some talk about reviving the PM Gear Kusala Pow Ski with Praxis construction. A couple seasons ago Pat and Keith did a successful collab to revive the 191 PM Gear Lhasa Pow Fat (with some minor tweaks). The limited custom run turned out awesome, I think we had around 30 pairs pressed. I personally love my pair, one of my favorite skis. Thread for those interested: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...xis-Lhasa-Pows

    I have yet to talk to Keith recently, but Pat reports that he has discussed the possibility of doing a Kusala repress with Keith, and looks like we'd need around 25 pre-orders to get that going. For those of you who don't know much about the Kusala, here's the thread about the skis: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...ear-Kusala-pow

    That being said, I thought it would be a cool idea to get a discussion thread going to talk about potential ski ideas and catalog the interest in various designs before we go to Keith with anything. Especially during this time, I would love to throw some business towards our favorite local ski builders, so seems like a great idea to get a custom ski run in the works.

    Personally, I am wondering what shape makes the most sense for a new ski. I would wonder how different a 'Praxis Kusala' would end up being compared to the regular protest considering the dimensions are very similar. Perhaps people who have skied both the Protest and original Kusala could chime in.

    Edit: See comments in thread below on first page, appears they ski pretty differently due to taper and other differences:

    Kusala Dimensions:

    Length: 186cm
    Dim: 133.2 / 124 / 129.4 mm
    Flat underfoot
    Radius: approximately 30m
    Pintail profile: 0.4°
    Front rocker length: 460mm
    Front rocker height: 23.7mm (including the front reverse camber)
    Front end height: 90mm
    Rear rocker length: 390mm
    Rear rocker height: 13.1mm (including the rear reverse camber)
    Rear end height: 30mm

    Protest Dimensions (187):
    Length: 187cm
    Dim: 139 / 128 / 132 mm
    Dim: 3mm Camber Underfoot (almost flat)
    Radius: 30m
    Front rocker length: 540mm
    Front rocker height: Unsure
    Front end height: 75mm
    Rear rocker length: 330mm
    Rear rocker height: Unsure
    Rear end height: 45mm



    Personally, I would be interested in two designs. First would be a narrower, 112-114mm waisted ski that is similar to the Kusala and or/Protest, but more versatile for all kinds of snow. Little shorter turn radius, tad more sidecut, and more supportive tips, and a tiny bit of camber for harder snow but still keeps that magic side-to-side nimbleness that makes skis like the Kusala and Protest so fun. I'd love to have this as a do it-all backcountry quiver of one. Praxis made a 'narrower Protest' before, in the Wootest and Wootest 2.0 (good info here: https://blisterreview.com/gear-revie...is-wootest-2-0 ). Could also be a good resort 1-ski quiver too depending on layup. Seems like the Wootest 2.0 generally speaking had a mixed reception. Would be curious as to people's thoughts on why and how that ski could be improved. Perhaps bumping the dimensions from 124 tip -113- 116 tail to the following (I need to ask Keith for current Wootest 2.0 design metrics, it is no longer on the website):

    'Wootest 3.0' ?
    187cm Length
    135 tip - 113 waist - 119 tail
    30m Sidecut Radius
    Minimal Camber Underfoot (3-5mm)
    Fairly Stiff Flex
    Enduro/Carbon/Veneer Layup


    Otherwise a Kusala repress would be great. 187cm seems like a good touring length to me, or 191 for resort.



    Those are just my general thoughts at the moment. One of the great thing about TGR is all the different perspectives and gearheads we have on here - so I just want to open the floor to discussion. I'm not a ski designer, and there are a lot of intricacies in how sidecut, rocker profile, taper play together. I'm sure Keith and/or Pat would have good insights about various ideas we might come up with and real-world feasibility.

    There is something to be said for not messing with a good thing - a Kusala repress would be a really fun ski for sure and would be pretty straightforward to get going.
    Last edited by Muggydude; 05-02-2020 at 11:38 AM.

  2. #2
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    New Praxis Ski or PM Gear Kusala Re-Press Interest and Discussion Thread

    All that being said, calling on all mags for discussion/opinions/ski design thoughts. It would also be helpful for everyone to chime in with their specific 'vote' at the moment for a custom ski run at Praxis to get a general gauge of interest on general designs for Keith. Here's a little format people can use. I'm putting in the current ideas I have - will be happy to modify/update the template with other people's opinions or if we get some other ski designs thrown out here.

    First Choice Ski

    Design: Kusala Repress / Wootest 3.0 (Skinny Protest/ Kusala-Type 1 Quiver BC Ski)
    Length: XXXcm
    Layup: UL / Enduro / Heavy Hitter
    Carbon: Yes / No
    Veneer: Yes / No
    Flex: 3 / 4 / 5 / Variable Flex Profile
    Would you commit to buying this ski this summer if it was made? Yes / No / Possibly


    Second Choice Ski

    Design: Kusala Repress / Wootest 3.0 (Skinny Protest/ Kusala-Type 1 Quiver BC Ski)
    Length: XXXcm
    Layup: UL / Enduro / Heavy Hitter
    Carbon: Yes / No
    Veneer: Yes / No
    Flex: 3 / 4 / 5 / Variable Flex Profile
    Would you commit to buying this ski this summer if it was made? Yes / No / Possibly
    Last edited by Muggydude; 05-02-2020 at 11:39 AM.

  3. #3
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    New Praxis Ski or PM Gear Kusala Re-Press Interest and Discussion Thread

    I'll go first:


    First Choice Ski

    Design: Wootest 3.0 (Skinny Protest / Kusala-Type 1 Quiver BC Ski)
    Length: 187cm
    Layup: Enduro
    Carbon: Yes
    Veneer: Yes
    Flex: 4
    Would you commit to buying this ski this summer if it was made? Yes


    Second Choice Ski

    Design: Kusala Repress
    Length: 187cm (tour) or 191cm (Resort)
    Layup: Enduro
    Carbon: Yes
    Veneer: Yes
    Flex: Variable Flex Profile
    Would you commit to buying this ski this summer if it was made? Possibly
    Last edited by Muggydude; 05-02-2020 at 11:39 AM.

  4. #4
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    So protest and kusala are very different. Kusala fixes all renegade deficiencies and skis like a spatula without the splits. It feels fattest underfoot and is really easy and quick. Its performs well at 186 for me unlike 187 protest (I have 192). I know 5 cm but damn different ski at 192. So kusala is quick and fun but it is carbon so not as great on groomers run outs. But is sick in pow. Protest is sick in pow but not as quick - could be 192. Anyways similar shapes but serve different purposes for me. But hey get both and you will have two of the best pow skis ever made.


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  5. #5
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    I want a 191 praxis kusala

    You are forgetting that dimensions do not talk about how much taper there is or how drastic the taper is. The protest and kusala do not have the same taper designs, which significantly affects the ski.

    Also for the skinnier ski which I would also be into I do not think increasing the sidecut is the right move, these skis feel awesome because of the surfy slarvy nature, not the carving ski feeling. For a skinnier ski like this it just needs to be more flat and stiff. Similar shape to the hoji, but may flatter, heavier layup and a stiff flex.
    Checkout the Down sd105 shape, something similar with a more modern mount point around -7/-8 would be super fun.

  6. #6
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    I would love 191 carbon PRAXIS Kasala with original PM GEAR ish mountain bike shirt graphic (with PRAXIS logo). I would buy.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #7
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    I have a very stiff pure carbon + rubber Kusala and it is magic. (might even be pure with rubber #1; picked it up from kevino).
    Super intuitive and quick with turn initiation, think turn and you do; great in the trees.
    Fun and playful pow ski plus it eats up chop and mixed conditions.
    Surprisingly fun on groomers for such a wide ski, rolling turn initiation from the tip and predictable carves.
    Prefer the Lhasa Fat for big open faces above tree-line, but a 191 version of the Kusala would be sweet.
    I also recently lucked into finding what I was hoping would be a back-up for my stiff Kusala; turned out it's laid up medium soft under foot and in the tail and soft in the shovel, but quite light ~ 8#6oz for the pair on my shitty kitchen scale.
    Have a pair of BD Helio 180s on the way to set them up as a touring Kusala.

    Don't need, but would want, desire and covet a 191 Kusala: Heavy Hitter Core; Stiff + Carbon & Veneer.


    edit: and I echo mr/ pretzel's point re: dimensions not telling the whole tale.while not having skied the Protest, I have one in hand and they look like they would ski much differently than the Kusala (Protest look a lot looser; much different taper & rocker profile).
    In search of the elusive artic powder weasel ...

  8. #8
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    Ok, I hate to be the voice of non-stoke. But negative feedback may be more valuable than gushing positive feedback in the end.

    I owned OG 186 Renegades and Carbon Kusalas with extra rubber over the years. They are fun skis. The magical frictionless feel in good soft snow cannot be denied. They are FAST!

    However, I feel (for me personally) that my Atomic BC 120s are better than both those skis overall in soft snow. I sunk the tips on both the Renegades and Kusalas and went over the bars. I’ve never sunk the tips on the BC 120s. This is despite the fact the BC 120s are mounted about 3-4cm forward of the mount point of the other skis.

    The BC 120s may not feel as fast/frictionless in pow. But the sweet spot is bigger, they are easily more surfy, and they do a larger variety of turn shapes at a larger variety of speeds (especially low speed prowess) than either the Renegade or Kusala.

    YMMV of course. For going as fast as possible in pow, the Praxis Kusala may still be the best call!!

  9. #9
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    Totally in on Kusala repress,firmly. 191 would be the shit

  10. #10
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    Also the kusala is designed by a nuclear engineer. So fast you’re radioactive

  11. #11
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    I haven't had a chance to ski my lhasa praxis hybrid but initial reaction is that they are a bit heavier then the original design obviously. I think one of the reasons the lhasa rip as well as they do in tight spots was the swing weight was good.

    I would be interested in a praxis Kusala. And if there was an option for a lighter core vs praxis heavy duty lumber just because I have some good chargers that wont need backup

  12. #12
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    In for a 191 Kusala-POW.

    Im not gonna let myself overthink layup options, or Ill just obsess forever about whether I shouldve gone a different route. Ill go with whatever Pat and Keith divine as the standard.

    Ohmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

  13. #13
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    I just want another 191 Lhasa Pow Fat - Hybrid ... please -> but as people say.. will take a 191 in anything pat/Keith make!

  14. #14
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    I got on my Kusalas for the first time in a few years this year and was back in love...

    Before I get into it I have to say that skis like the Renegade/Kusala are an endangered species. Anyone who thinks that other skis are better should just buy and ski those, there are plenty of options. If there is any option to recreate a Kusala, then don't propose a change. There are those of us who need our meds in a world with supply chain problems...

    I have EHPs, Renegades, Hojis, Kusala, WooTest 1, Down CD 4 (long radius, 100mm). My opinion is that the EHP is the best ski ever created, but Kusala might be a close second.

    I spend the most time on two pairs of Hoji, but ultimately that ski has too much RC.
    -Kusala is very light with RC

    OG Renegade charged soft snow but was a tank
    -Kusala was a much lighter touch while not losing much on the top end

    EHP didn't carve
    -Kusala could a little bit :-)

    Wootest has too much pintail (also just a weird fucking ski)
    -Kusala is quite symmetrical

    Most 120 ranges skis ski powder great, and ones with bigger tips will ski it better, but the straight skis have real advantages:
    1. That 'frictionless" feel people talk about, because you tails aren't in the snow dragging
    2. They ski bad (soft) snow the best. Crusts and upside down snow. They don't react with when snow density changes, and because the tail is less deep and pressure is evenly distributed through the ski you can still carve/slarve. Don't have to get up and down.
    3. Best fat skis for a skin track, as the tips of the skis plow the way, Kusala tips are only like 130. You can still get pinched, but less so.
    4. You get to use almost your whole ski edge, unlike heavily tapered skis. More powwah.

    For my goto, I would like a light EHP more than anything, but I'm rediscovering that the Kusala might just be there or better as a pure soft snow touring ski.

    Only improvement: Maybe a revision of the tip shape and tip rocker curve. This would make them slice better when they do go under.

    2020 Stoke:

    Both equally talented skiers are using Kusalas :-)

  15. #15
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    Regarding a light EHP, or fatter Raven, or Hoji with less RC, it was discussed a bit in 4FRNT's thread. Let's hope they listen to us and do something great next year ...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4FRNT_Skis View Post
    -Would anyone ever want to see the Hoji rocker flattened a bit to be more like the Raven? Sort of a hybrid EHP / Hoji?
    Nice vid btw

  16. #16
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    Wootest 3.0 (Skinny Protest/ Kusala-Type 1 Quiver BC Ski)
    Length: 186cm
    Layup: UL
    Carbon: Yes
    Veneer: No
    Flex: 4
    Would you commit to buying this ski this summer if it was made? Yes

    Super interested in a 191 kusala pressing as well


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  17. #17
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    As been already said the Kusala and Protest are pretty different skis. Both awesome but different. The Kusala is so frictionless and lightning quick where the protests are more stable. I prefer the Kusalas over the protests in trees. Having already sprung for 4 pairs in the praxis custom sale this year Id still be down for a 186 Kusala repress as a back up pair.

    Heres some semi mediocre kusala stoke and I couldnt help but to put a little kid stoke in there in the end because my 4-year old is awesome:

  18. #18
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    Thanks for the info guys, good to know! That makes me a lot more interested in a pair of Kusala re-presses.

    Interesting that people tend to think the Kusala doesn't necessarily need to be as long as the Protest for the same kind of float and support. Without reading through the entire Kusala thread, what kind of stance does the Kusala want? Same centered/ball of foot type style the Protest needs? What happens if you get more forward over the tips on the Kusala? Submerge and over the handle bars?

    I suppose that perhaps might be part of the tradeoff for a design like this, but is it possible to get the tip support of something like a Lhasa Pow Fat or Cease and Desist has, but still have that frictionless side to side feeling?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muggydude View Post
    I suppose that perhaps might be part of the tradeoff for a design like this, but is it possible to get the tip support of something like a Lhasa Pow Fat or Cease and Desist has, but still have that frictionless side to side feeling?
    No. I think the best you can do is ON3P's RES, which let you move laterally almost like a R/R if they're planing. I don't think you can make the tip of the Renegade/Kusala wider and retain the same feel.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    No. I think the best you can do is ON3P's RES, which let you move laterally almost like a R/R if they're planing. I don't think you can make the tip of the Renegade/Kusala wider and retain the same feel.
    Agreed. Im absolutely infatuated with the idea of a Praxis Kusala (and FWIW, I kinda like the idea of a -10 version but its certainly not something Im pushing for at the moment), just wanted to add to the collective response that Im a 191 min on the Kusala and I normally roll on the typical 187 on most sticks. Kinda would prefer longer but... R/R skis short AF and if the Kusala is as badass as everyone says 191 is the shortest I would go.
    Fear, Doubt, Disbelief, you have to let it all go. Free your mind!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskido View Post
    Agreed. I’m absolutely infatuated with the idea of a Praxis Kusala (and FWIW, I kinda like the idea of a -10 version but it’s certainly not something I’m pushing for at the moment), just wanted to add to the collective response that I’m a 191 min on the Kusala and I normally roll on the typical 187 on most sticks. Kinda would prefer longer but... R/R skis short AF and if the Kusala is as badass as everyone says 191 is the shortest I would go.
    I made that mistake once. Been readin' about how badass they are from fuckin Lindahl ever since.
    Luckily, SFmuthafukinB hooked me up with a fresh protoey looking pair(thank you brother) Waiting on FR14's.
    I want resort/sidecountry slayers, just as the mad scientist drew them up, cept 191 this go around hopefully
    Last edited by tuco; 04-30-2020 at 07:11 PM.

  22. #22
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    I am in for a Kusala all the dims exactly same carbon, etc. lightweight touring option. I would probably want a 186 for touring weight but could live with a 191. Essentially something that would replace my old Lotus 138 carbons but allow me to tour without tearing both my ACLs or killing myself on the exit or in resort chop.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuco View Post
    I made that mistake once. Been readin' about how badass they are from fuckin Lindahl ever since.
    Luckily, SFmuthafukinB hooked me up with a fresh protoey looking pair(thank you brother) Waiting on FR14's.
    I want resort/sidecountry slayers, just as the mad scientist drew them up, cept 191 this go around hopefully
    Haha! Totally feel ya man, thanks for keeping the sanity! Fully agree with the resort/sidecountry as drawn, just dont want any sort of full carbon layup personally. Would really dig an Enduro/Carbon/Veneer layup for ultimate versatility but I am absolutely not trying pick these things to the point of alienation, would just LOVE to see them made! Full trust in Keith and Splat on this deal.
    Fear, Doubt, Disbelief, you have to let it all go. Free your mind!

  24. #24
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    New Praxis Ski or PM Gear Kusala Re-Press Interest and Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eskido View Post
    Haha! Totally feel ya man, thanks for keeping the sanity! Fully agree with the resort/sidecountry as drawn, just dont want any sort of full carbon layup personally. Would really dig an Enduro/Carbon/Veneer layup for ultimate versatility but I am absolutely not trying pick these things to the point of alienation, would just LOVE to see them made! Full trust in Keith and Splat on this deal.
    I think a Praxis redux of the Kusala experience could be pretty well approximated by what you said: enduro/carbon/veneer... or maybe enduro/carbon/nylon.

    The original Kusala is damp in a way I wouldnt have expected a full carbon layup to be. Theyre not an ultralight ski, either, weighing in at just over 2200g/ski. Splat really did get the carbon construction dialed.

    I dont remember feeling like the Kusala skis super short at 186; not like the 187 Hoji, anyway. Me being freakishly tall, though, Id love to get on a 190+.

  25. #25
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    I would be all over a 191 Praxis Kusala. I was bummed I missed the first round but was fresh on a 13 Renegade.

    With 4FRNT going with more RC and a tighter radius and shorter lengths Ive been sitting over here in my JP forests wondering WTF they are thinking.

    Every Kusala post Ive read has said it was a better pow/tree ski than the OG Ren.

    Not a single post has ever said that the 2020 Ren is a better pow/tree ski than the 13.

    Only problem is that I havent broken my Rens yet. Gonna be a bit to stomach having that much overlap coming off my previous financial year. Some of you know that story.

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