Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties

**Dantheman** · 04-24-2020, 10:36 AM

Has anyone read this book or saw the author on JRE last week? I caught the episode driving home yesterday and all I can say is holy. fucking. shitballs. I'll need to listen to the whole thing again, then read the book, then listen again before I can even begin to grasp the full breadth of what Tom O'Neill uncovered.

https://www.amazon.com/Chaos-Charles.../dp/0316477559

**m2711c** · 04-24-2020, 10:50 AM

what did he come up with that was'nt already covered in the original?

**JimmyCarter** · 04-24-2020, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by m2711c

what did he come up with that was'nt already covered in the original?

“When a tense interview with Vincent Bugliosi -- prosecutor of the Manson Family and author of Helter Skelter -- turned a friendly source into a nemesis, O'Neill knew he was onto something.”

**Dantheman** · 04-24-2020, 11:12 AM

He's proven that Helter Skelter was largely a work of fiction. He's also proven that Bugliosi was corrupt, compromised, and had serious mental illness.

This has been a 20-year effort for O'Neill that first started as a magazine assignment he was given. His initial reaction was basically the same--hasn't everything about that story been told already? His editor told him to start working it and he'd find an angle eventually. What he uncovered is mind boggling.

**seano732** · 04-24-2020, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Dantheman

He's proven that Helter Skelter was largely a work of fiction. He's also proven that Bugliosi was corrupt, compromised, and had serious mental illness.

Just started it and holy shitballs is right....

**m2711c** · 04-24-2020, 01:22 PM

ok, that sounds interesting. Will read.

**iceman** · 04-25-2020, 09:42 PM

Just listened to the first 10 minutes of the JRE vid. Kinda sounds like there's some parallels with Whitey Bulger and the FBI and all the crazy shit that happened there, I'll read it the book, thanks.

edit: paperback's not out on Amazon until 6/23 and I'm not gonna spring for the hardcover but I preordered it.

**Dantheman** · 04-26-2020, 08:58 AM

Whitey comes up in the podcast in a pretty directly-related way. Listen to the podcast while you wait for the book. It'll prime you for what's coming in the book and he also gets into some other stuff that didn't make it into the book or has happened since it was published last year.

**zion zig zag** · 05-02-2020, 07:38 AM

Just listened to the JRE podcast on a drive. It's pretty rare that I can stay engaged for a 3 hour podcast, but the time flew by. I'll have to pick up the paperback as well.

**SkiBall** · 05-02-2020, 06:05 PM

I added this to my audible wish list the other day. Used my monthly credit on the Beastie Boys book, but I will use the next one on this book.

**Dantheman** · 08-02-2020, 09:05 AM

Get the scuba gear ready, it's time to go deep.

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**TahoeJ** · 08-02-2020, 02:10 PM

If you're into this stuff, I highly recommend the book American Tabloid by James Ellroy. It's fiction but it's woven around real events, news headlines, and his theory of the JFK assassination and more. Really good.

**ötzi** · 08-05-2020, 07:01 PM

Got my copy a couple weeks ago, got to get started on it. You reading it yet Dan?

**bodywhomper** · 08-05-2020, 07:21 PM

Curious how (or if) this dovetails with Acid Dreams https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_Dreams_(book)

**Dantheman** · 08-05-2020, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by ötzi

Got my copy a couple weeks ago, got to get started on it. You reading it yet Dan?

Not yet.

**ötzi** · 08-05-2020, 08:53 PM

Let's talk later, then.

**ötzi** · 08-05-2020, 08:54 PM

Now would be awkward.

**Dantheman** · 08-15-2020, 02:41 PM

I sat down intending to get through the prologue and maybe the first chapter, read 116 pages. It's so dense with details but the pages fly. Outstanding writing.

edit: Another several chapters and 120 pages down today. Riveting story, almost reads like a novel.

**toast2266** · 08-16-2020, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Dantheman

I sat down intending to get through the prologue and maybe the first chapter, read 116 pages. It's so dense with details but the pages fly. Outstanding writing.

edit: Another several chapters and 120 pages down today. Riveting story, almost reads like a novel.

Agreed. I'm about half way through. Shit's getting crazy.

**HAB** · 08-16-2020, 09:22 PM

I read it a few months ago. It's fucking wild, and incredibly well written and researched.

Let me know when you guys finish, let's get a TGR book club discussion going.

**Dantheman** · 08-23-2020, 12:27 PM

I found a really cool historical photo of Jolly West:

**Dantheman** · 08-28-2020, 10:46 AM

Dang, I thought that joke would get more traction. I can't help but wonder if the Batman Begins version of Scarecrow was inspired by West and MKUltra.

Ultimately the book raises a lot more questions than it answers, but damn, there's just no way that:

-Manson wasn't a product of the CIA.
-The Family didn't kill way more people than we know about.
-The CIA wasn't involved in the JFK assassination in some capacity.

Tom O'Neill deserves to win every award there is for investigative journalism. The number of people he tracked down and interviewed and the documents he uncovered are mind boggling. This book is one of the greatest works of investigative journalism in history. One thing mentioned in the JRE interview that isn't in the book (for obvious reasons): the book implicates numerous prominent people, many of whom are still alive, in serious crimes. Little Brown assumed they would face multiple defamation suits and allocated budget to defend them, but not one of those people or their survivors have filed suit against them. Tom's findings are air-tight and no one wants the publicity a lawsuit would create.

Another detail noted in the interview that post-dates the book: the HAFMC had continued operating and closed in July 2019 barely a month after Chaos was published. I mean, sure, that could just be a coincidence, but....

ETA: Also, fifty years from now what will we find out that the CIA is up to right now when they're not busy droning brown people?

**Dantheman** · 09-08-2020, 01:24 PM

Ice? Toast? HAB? Bueller?

**JimmyCarter** · 09-08-2020, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Dantheman

Ice? Toast? HAB? Bueller?

I’m going to have to read this now just because I feel bad about your unrequited enthusiasm for it

**toast2266** · 09-08-2020, 02:14 PM

Finished it. Liked it a lot.

Wasn't particularly aware of the details of the case prior to reading the book - I knew the basics of the murders, but nothing beyond that. I'm not sure if that made the book better or worse; it didn't really shake up everything I'd previously held to be true about the crime since all I really knew going into it was that Manson convinced some groupies to go kill Sharon Tate, among others. But the revelations (thin as they may be) about the connections to MK Ultra and various other FBI and CIA programs was really interesting. Even though the whole argument is a bit tenuous, it seems pretty likely that something fucky was going on, and it certainly makes for an interesting story.

Mostly, I thought O'neill did a really good job of presenting his research - it's very readable. And even though plenty of it ventured kind of far out there into conspiracy theory land, it never felt like he was overselling the information he was presenting.