Why are AK heli operators not refunding money or giving credit for future trips

[m2711c]

So let me get this straight: what you're saying is that it's justifiable for a business to steal if that business is so poorly run that it doesn't maintain enough liquidity to cover its bare-bones overhead when they can't operate for a short period of time.

Because taking someone's money without offering anything in return is theft, pure and simple.

+1

[TahoeJ]

So let me get this straight: what you're saying is that it's justifiable for a business to steal if that business is so poorly run that it doesn't maintain enough liquidity to cover its bare-bones overhead when they can't operate for a short period of time.

Because taking someone's money without offering anything in return is theft, pure and simple.

This. I mean we're talking about 6-8 weeks of lost business. Not to mention their operating costs go way down during this period not having to buy all of the food for guests, fuel for the helis, etc.

[skideeppow]

"Its easy for those who still have a job to point fingers and tell those that don't what should or shouldn't be done."

^^^ Dont know if this is directed at me, but i have no job, my industry is done, as in not operating anymore and may never come back.
I have two STR's that have no income or tenants yet i am still paying Mortgage, HOA Fees and utilities.
So i dont need a lecture on finger pointing.
I am bleeding cash and can probably last 3-4 months and then things will be very bad. And I am probably in a good spot compared to most.

[powpig]

This. I mean we're talking about 6-8 weeks of lost business.

You do realize that 9 weeks is an entire season for Silverton Heli in AK, right?
Based upon your "6-8 weeks", it would be more like 8-10 months of lost business for any normal, year round business.
Just keeping things in proper context.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand?
Silverton collects a fuck ton of money to run a heli op.
They spent a shit ton of that money to get ready for the season.
They now need an investor or SBA to help them get cash to refund their customers.

That seems reasonable to me. Is it a fucked situation? Sure. Should they refund everyone once they get it sorted? Hell yeah.

[m2711c]

nice straw man

[mall walker]

I think a lot of people are under the impression heli-ops are pocketing the money from guests as pure profit but I'd guess many things are rented by them and paid for way before the season starts and that's why there isn't full refunds.

Or as Silverton says "Heli skiing in AK requires extensive financial outlay months and months in advance by the business in order to have everything ready for the guests"


You guys will rip on them for being candid in the above post and not having the right tone or whatever, but I appreciate it. this is TGR, none of us have the right tone, and it's great to hear the other side.

yeah it didn't seem that crazy to me, though I'm also not thousands of dollars in the hole for my heli trip so maybe I'm lacking some perspective that others have

[skideeppow]

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand?
Silverton collects a fuck on of money to run a heli op.
They spent a shit ton of that money to get ready for the season.
So they need an investor or SBA to help them get cash to refund.

This isn't a year round business, it's probably not comparable to mtn bike trips to Crested Butte, and it's unreaslitic to think they'd just be sitting on all the cash needed to refund 100% of their customers money ASAP.

That said. Should they refund everyone? Hell yeah they should.

ok, so why are all other heli ops in AK and Canada offering credits or refunds, no questions asked?

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

I'm just gonna guess that it's because they had the money to offer refunds and Silverton doesn't?

[m2711c]

sounds like a poorly run business that didn't bother to maintain sufficient liquidity.....

[AmmergauerTele]

Hopefully you paid via credit card - dispute the charge. I think you will get it back. You have quite a bit more options if you went the credit card route.

[californiagrown]

sounds like a poorly run business that didn't bother to maintain sufficient liquidity.....

Sounds like a lot of small businesses at various points throughout their operating life. For right or wrong.

[XXX-er]

for an answer to the OP's question goggle " Force Majeure "

consider lots of businesses large & small are one big bad event from going out of business and this is THE biggest baddest event I've seen ever period

Many businesses may go tit's up and there may not be any money

[mall walker]

Sounds like a lot of small businesses at various points throughout their operating life. For right or wrong.

and big businesses, if you count VC funded startups

[Core Shot]

If you’ve never done small biz you have no idea.

In your mind we’re all flying our private jets to Vegas every weekend doing hookers and blow.

[mmmm...pow!]

Seems pretty reasonable that they are currently trying to figure out what they can do for their customers, and just don't know yet. They don't own the bird, so it's very possible they are eating the cost of the lease if that company doesn't reimburse them. Maybe they prepaid for x amount of fuel. Insurance can't be cheap. Who knows what else. People gonna give them shit for not having a bunch of cash on hand, but they are a bunch of ski bums offering some of the cheapest and most bare bones skiing there is.
At least take them at their word and give them a few weeks to figure shit out before throwing them under the bus.

[soul_skier]

The idea of refunding a heli trip is significantly more complex that it may seem from your couch. Nearly all operations lease their birds for the heli season, which has to be locked in and paid for well in advance. Same with their insurance and a bunch of their other overhead costs. I'm not saying that organizations shouldn't be able to find a happy compromise on a future trip given the current situation, but expecting a blanket full refund in the coming days/weeks is not a reasonable expectation. Everyone is scrambling to figure out how to do right by their customers in these circumstances, let's err on the side of caution and not assume the worst in every organization that is trying to get their ducks in a row.

On the other hand, I'm supposed to be on a maldives boat trip this summer and heard from our charter that if the maldives travel restrictions are lifted by then and I can legally travel to Male to meet the boat, I'm expected to be there. If I legally can't get there due to government imposed restrictions I'll be rolled over to the same trip next year. Overhead costs are significantly less for a surf charter than a heli trip, but it does illustrate the value of going with a organization that has the capital and relationships to weather a storm like this.

[m2711c]

[Ottime]

I think a lot of people are under the impression heli-ops are pocketing the money from guests as pure profit but I'd guess many things are rented by them and paid for way before the season starts and that's why there isn't full refunds.

Or as Silverton says "Heli skiing in AK requires extensive financial outlay months and months in advance by the business in order to have everything ready for the guests"


You guys will rip on them for being candid in the above post and not having the right tone or whatever, but I appreciate it. this is TGR, none of us have the right tone, and it's great to hear the other side.

I think their post is excellent. It clarifies much. It seems honest. A bit tone deaf, but while in Rome...

I give it five stars. Let’s see what happens.

[comish]

Another angle is the travel insurance that comes with many credit cards. I broke my collar bone in Austria and we cancelled our 2nd week we eventually got credit for our hotel which had included breakfast and dinner for 5 so wasn't an insignificant amt. + The airline change and extra fees.

It took a ton of back and forth, submitting papers, etc, but I did get a pretty big check back from the travel insurance company a yr later. They were waiting for the yr credit period to expire w the airlines otherwise I would say it 4 months of pain.

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[old goat]

If you paid with a credit card within the last 6 months, you can charge it back. The card processor would have to cover the chargeback even if the operator did not have the funds in his account.

As an operator if you get a couple of chargebacks that limits your ability to take cards in the future. The processor would terminate the account and then you would have to go with a high risk processor who would charge you 3-4x what you were paying now.

I can't recall how we paid for our heli trip--I think it was card but greater than 6 months in advance. But a lot of tour operators of various sorts require checks for this reason--so you can't charge back.

In a perfect world a tour operator would have insurance for unforeseen events (see the post in another thread about Wimbledon's policy which is paying them for the losses from canceling the tournament.). That seems far-fetched in the case of a heli ski operation.

Looking at Travel Guard's website it sounds like they are considering cancellations of trips by operators to be unforeseen events covered by the Travelguard policy if purchased before 3/11, the day the WHO declared a pandemic, making cancellation a foreseable, non-covered event under policies purchased after that date. Since we have no experience with Travel Guard under this policy I can't confirm that it works.

[f=ma]

They're broke and they're trying to figure shit out.

[powdork]

it says they are looking into an SBA loan. That takes a little time to figure out where that leaves them. It may be trying to figure out the percentages of the loan that will be forgiven in different scenarios in a somewhat cloudy situation.
It could also be difficult to promise to take you up in the future if they are unsure what the industry will look like in the future.

[powpig]

It could also be difficult to promise to take you up in the future if they are unsure what the industry will look like in the future.

The only thing worse than being told today you're shit outta luck and not gonna get a cent back, would be to get rolled over and rescheduled for next year, only to have them pull the plug and go outta business this fall.

[old goat]

Bankruptcy of a tour operator is something that should be covered by travel insurance. Pretty common occurrence in the travel biz.