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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
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    New York City
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    26

    Powder Ski Recs Inquiry + Post ACL Length + Sweet Deal Dilemma

    Howdy,

    I completely shredded my ACL this past winter on my 18/19 188cm Rossi Super 7 HD's. Sold 'em because I didnt want that bad juju moving forward. Now I am looking for a ski to fill that tree-and-bowl-skiing-on-deep-days hole in my quiver.

    Current Quiver:

    • 15/16 185cm High Society FR 100 as my rock ski
    • 19/20 182cm Icelantic Pioneer 109 as my every-day/front side/crud/ < 6 of pow ski


    Personal Specs:
    • 210lbs
    • 6'1.5"
    • advanced but far from expert


    I am looking for something that is fully rockered, >= 120cm, length 185ish, and most likely used (absolute max budget $400 incl bindings. $300 is more ideal). Skis I am eyeing, in order are:
    • Praxis Protest
    • Black Crows Nocta
    • 4FRNT Renegade
    • Blizzard Spur


    I have a friend willing to hook me up with a really sweet deal on a pair of used (~10 days) Protests with bindings for $400. Only problem is... they are too short - 177cm. Or are they? I will be coming off this ACL injury and likely be more cautious which to me does mean dropping down some in size. Perhaps dropping down to a 177 is what I should be doing post-ACL.

    So I guess my questions are
    1. Should I step down in size of pow ski due to surgery?
    2. Is it a misnomer that a pow ski should be longer than your everyday ski?
    3. Of the 4 skis which do the experts (you all) recc?
    4. Anything else I should be thinking about?


    Thanks for the input

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,500
    Wait for one of 4FRNT's spontaneous sales. Buy a Renegade. No need to size down. It's super pivoty and the float of more length will be even more confidence inspiring.

    /post-ACL guy who skis 186 Renegades.

    *edit: Renegades are sold out.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    5,220
    fwiw I don't think the Protest is full rocker, and at your size I think that ski in a 177 is crazy short... at 5'10" / 150lbs, the 179 Wootest (15mm skinnier Protest) was short even for 100% BC use, and my usual BC ski length is 177-180, I whine about long tails during kick turns, am generally a weight weenie and so on. Hold out for something bigger imho. haven't skied any of these though, so mostly just talking out of my ass.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sandy
    Posts
    1,912
    I agree that sounds way too short for you. You may find you have less control on something that short, even coming off of surgery. They will be like snowblades at your size.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    6,116
    I had a plain 'ol ACl tear and surgery went great. The next season I couldn't ski anything but groomers though, i was in so much pain in the chop. My theory was just too much scar tissue immediately happened after the surgery and it took forever for it to break down. Doc couldn't guess what it was. I sold my Salomon Dictators because of all this (well actually no one wanted to buy them so I threw them out but anyways) and I got some skinnier skis, but not shorter ones. A few years later I was 95% back to my old self.

    My point is, who knows how it will go and how you will feel. Most likely you will have better luck than me though. But you are a big guy and going too small is dangerous too. 177 seems way short but I don't know how you ski either.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasatch
    Posts
    5,655
    Whitedot redeemer is reverse protest IMO. Hoji might be more versatile than renegade. Spur is great ski but Iím on OG which I think is easy. Nocta is small sweet spot like renegade. Iím 20-30 lighter and ski 192 protest. 190 nocta and redeemer. I have OG spur. All great. Protest is pow slayer and rips groomers. More charger than redeemer which is more poppy.
    OG spur is big mtn pow ski and does really good on groomers. More fallline
    Nocta is a bit of an anomaly. More like a blend of renegade and spur.
    Any one will do well. More pow protest or redeemer. More big mtn spur or Nocta


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I need to go to Utah.
    Utah?
    Yeah, Utah. It's wedged in between Wyoming and Nevada. You've seen pictures of it, right?

    So after 15 years we finally made it to Utah.....


    Thanks BCSAR and POWMOW Ski Patrol for rescues

    8, 17, 13, 18, 16, 18, 20, 19, 16

    2018/2019 (24/32)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    5,678
    Definitely too short.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Down on Electric Avenue
    Posts
    1,777
    Agree on the too short.
    You might consider a little narrower for a daily driver, at least for your rebound season.
    Groomers will be good to get back on the horse, softer snow becomes appealing slowly.
    Light pow, nice; anything heavy or upside down will work that knee quick.

    We all come back different but most seem to have pain for awhile in the off piste..

    Also, consider this: after this season, there are gonna be a LOT of skis left on racks. This summer may be a good season to shop hard for price and selection. Sales of last years Demo fleets should hold some still minty boards as well.

    And work hard to get the muscles back in the thigh/calf - that was my weak link, although I did not think so until I started my usual winter program and couldn't hang with myself.
    My Daily driver and all my skis fall in the 'as long as they make them' category.
    For deep pow or flopped crud, I gots da 2013 Super 7, 195cm. 117mm under.

    I'd think at yer size and skill level you could go longest or next size down.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by muted View Post
    I had a plain 'ol ACl tear and surgery went great. The next season I couldn't ski anything but groomers though, i was in so much pain in the chop. My theory was just too much scar tissue immediately happened after the surgery and it took forever for it to break down. Doc couldn't guess what it was. I sold my Salomon Dictators because of all this (well actually no one wanted to buy them so I threw them out but anyways) and I got some skinnier skis, but not shorter ones. A few years later I was 95% back to my old self.

    My point is, who knows how it will go and how you will feel. Most likely you will have better luck than me though. But you are a big guy and going too small is dangerous too. 177 seems way short but I don't know how you ski either.
    Well this does not bode well for my plan to quit my day job here in October and abuse the IKON pass next season. :/

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Tahoe
    Posts
    334
    at 6í2Ē, maybe 6í1.5Ē, and 230# the 192 protest skis easy. i could ski the 187s, though there would be a speed limit. the 177s would be ... i think unmanageable.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    350
    On3p cease and desist. Think they make a 184. I have the 189 and Iím ur size. Rockered, friendly, versatile and the king of deep snow. Give em a look.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by whyturn View Post
    Whitedot redeemer is reverse protest IMO. Hoji might be more versatile than renegade. Spur is great ski but Iím on OG which I think is easy. Nocta is small sweet spot like renegade. Iím 20-30 lighter and ski 192 protest. 190 nocta and redeemer. I have OG spur. All great. Protest is pow slayer and rips groomers. More charger than redeemer which is more poppy.
    OG spur is big mtn pow ski and does really good on groomers. More fallline
    Nocta is a bit of an anomaly. More like a blend of renegade and spur.
    Any one will do well. More pow protest or redeemer. More big mtn spur or Nocta


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Sounds like you have skied on basically all the skis I am considering... ha

    Can you explain the small sweet spot in the renegade and nocta? I never noticed an inability of finding the sweet spot on the rossi super 7's I had. ...But then again those are kinda intended to be the intro-to-powder-skiing ski so I imagine the sweet spot is massive.

    Did you have any issues with tip-dive on the nocta? I have heard mixed reviews regarding specifically tip dive on that ski.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    New York City
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    26
    Quote Originally Posted by gaijin View Post
    Wait for one of 4FRNT's spontaneous sales. Buy a Renegade. No need to size down. It's super pivoty and the float of more length will be even more confidence inspiring.

    /post-ACL guy who skis 186 Renegades.

    *edit: Renegades are sold out.
    Appreciate the vote of confidence for maintaining length. Will keep an eye on their site!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by Djongo Unchained View Post
    Agree on the too short.

    Also, consider this: after this season, there are gonna be a LOT of skis left on racks. This summer may be a good season to shop hard for price and selection. Sales of last years Demo fleets should hold some still minty boards as well.

    I'd think at yer size and skill level you could go longest or next size down.
    Reccs of websites I should keep an eye on? I have a handful I check every few days but has not proven fruitful yet.

    Appreciate the vote of confidence on the ACL Starting to do a lot of indoor bike workouts. Gyms closed in my area due to COVID but picked up a trainer!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    whistler
    Posts
    1,073
    I've come to something of a conclusion re: protests
    If you ski fast I think you'll get along with them. They aren't spectacular at low speeds which might help explain why some gripe about float and/or mount back of rec. Based on your ability self assessment I'd factor that in.

    Second point would be to consider width carefully with an injured knee. The torque on harder surfaces is very real.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    New York City
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    26
    Quote Originally Posted by nickel View Post
    I've come to something of a conclusion re: protests
    If you ski fast I think you'll get along with them. They aren't spectacular at low speeds which might help explain why some gripe about float and/or mount back of rec. Based on your ability self assessment I'd factor that in.

    Second point would be to consider width carefully with an injured knee. The torque on harder surfaces is very real.
    Both points are really good pieces of information. Thank you!

    I would say I am not a particularly fast skier when going through trees and im not straightlining couloir either. What would you rec for someone that isnt lightening quick enough for a Protest?

    Can you talk more about the torque on hard surface and how that relates to width of ski Im not fully seeing the connection.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,500
    Wider skis on firm snow tug at your knee joint more than narrower skis when surfing/slarving turns... not necessarily when carving.

    Stand still. Turn your skis sideways across the fall-line. Sideslip.

    Your edge-to-knee fulcrum line is an angle to the slope. That angle determines the torque on your knee. That torque increases with width.

    Side-slipping (or surfing turns) increases in torque as width increases. Many of us, myself included, spend our first year back just carving groomers. Slarving/surfing is hard. But more and more float will make surface-carving in pow easier and lower the torque of your classic pow turn.

    All that said, the longest reverse camber you can find will be the easiest ski in regards to torque against your knee when it comes to 3D snow.

    But we all know you may very well feel like spending a season carving 2D snow.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    306
    Iím about your height, but lighter (~175# out the shower).

    I have 190 Nocta. I only got a couple days on it this season, but was very happy. No major issues with tip dive unless you really drive front of boots going into a drift - and even then, I never crashed as a result (as opposed to the 185 Animas, where this was a recurring problem for me).

    I was surprised at how stiff the ski feels when skiing. I was expecting softer feel. This is not bad - more confidence inspiring when you get going, especially in open terrain (I only skied trees).

    I think a ski that could be a good one to improve from advanced to expert.


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  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    355
    Doesn't get a lot of love here but I owned the OG Armada JJ and the first time I used it years ago it felt like cheating in powder. Some pretty good deals to be have on the updated model right now and while newer skis like the Kartels may balance charging with playfulness better for the TGR crowd that likes double rocker, the JJs are stupid-easy which may be nice during a surgical recovery.
    Originally Posted by jm2e:
    To be a JONG is no curse in these unfortunate times. 'Tis better that than to be alone.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    98
    Interesting talk for someone waiting for an ACL Reconstruction thanks to Coronavirus...

    Suspecting that next season I may sell the big skis I did it with and pick up some skinny skimo race skis as that may be all I can do for most of winter...

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasatch
    Posts
    5,655
    Quote Originally Posted by topher23 View Post
    Sounds like you have skied on basically all the skis I am considering... ha

    Can you explain the small sweet spot in the renegade and nocta? I never noticed an inability of finding the sweet spot on the rossi super 7's I had. ...But then again those are kinda intended to be the intro-to-powder-skiing ski so I imagine the sweet spot is massive.

    Did you have any issues with tip-dive on the nocta? I have heard mixed reviews regarding specifically tip dive on that ski.
    Renegade needs to be skied like Hoji does. Like a cat light on your feet. Takes a few days to get used to then your fine. Ski another ski and back to renegade and you start over. Donít get me wrong itís a great ski. Had some of the best days ever. Itís a scalpel type ski.

    Nocta is similar but much better on groomers and just easier. Moved from 185 to 190 and no tipdive. Will have to ski it more to see if it makes the cut.

    Protest is stupid easy and a great ski in pow. You just canít go wrong unless you have carbon inbounds or itís too short.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I need to go to Utah.
    Utah?
    Yeah, Utah. It's wedged in between Wyoming and Nevada. You've seen pictures of it, right?

    So after 15 years we finally made it to Utah.....


    Thanks BCSAR and POWMOW Ski Patrol for rescues

    8, 17, 13, 18, 16, 18, 20, 19, 16

    2018/2019 (24/32)

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    whistler
    Posts
    1,073
    Quote Originally Posted by topher23 View Post
    Both points are really good pieces of information. Thank you!

    I would say I am not a particularly fast skier when going through trees and im not straightlining couloir either. What would you rec for someone that isnt lightening quick enough for a Protest?

    Can you talk more about the torque on hard surface and how that relates to width of ski Im not fully seeing the connection.
    I don't want you to get the wrong impression here. You don't need to be straight lining anything. Do your turns in pow look like powder 8 little squiggles or are they all sorts of different shapes? The protest shines in how it lets you surf any shape turn you want. If making very close to identical shaped turns down the whole hill, lots of other skis will do just fine without placing the torque on your knees that a 128mm ski can.

    Gaijin explained the torque bit pretty well but I'm bored so I'll add my .02

    The ski wants to lay flat while in motion. The force to tip it on its side comes from you. The distance between the edge and your foot is essentially a lever but it's one acting against you. If you're not skiing soft snow 90% or more of your day, skis over 120mm will really take a toll on your knees. I have friends who've forsaken the category entirely for this reason.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Posts
    306
    Quote Originally Posted by whyturn View Post
    Nocta is similar but much better on groomers and just easier. Moved from 185 to 190 and no tipdive. Will have to ski it more to see if it makes the cut.

    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Iíve been wondering about Nocta vs Renegades given similarities on paper. Anything else you might add?

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by ddraver View Post
    Interesting talk for someone waiting for an ACL Reconstruction thanks to Coronavirus...

    Suspecting that next season I may sell the big skis I did it with and pick up some skinny skimo race skis as that may be all I can do for most of winter...
    ACL rupture on MLK weekend, reconstruction on Feb 17. About 3 weeks before the lockdown in my city - NYC. So glad I got it when I did. Had trips planned to Big Sky for end of March, looks like I wouldn't have been able to go regardless of the ACL. Ha

    Good luck with the surgery. The first month post-op is the worst IMO

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Down on Electric Avenue
    Posts
    1,777
    Late season skiing at The really Big has an impact on ACL's...AMHIK.

    I am a full time front seat skier; That was helpful for me as I could stay forward flexed and make the muscles do the work, not the new knee parts.

    I'd think riding a ski that wants you in the backseat, would be stressing that patellar tendon firstly, and then throughout the joint.

    My Super 7's are def not for an intro to Pow skiing, maybe yours have the honeycomb tips, next generation. Way easier and more versatile for the advanced skiers.

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