Home Heat Pump for a mild climate

[Mofro261]

When people if you have recently had an 18k btu mini split or similar installed recently, what did that cost you? Thinking a single condenser, single indoor unit, uncomplicated install, including electrical.

We had 2 installed month, cost us a little less than $8K each for what you describe.

[zion zig zag]

https://www.premiumhomesource.com/pr...-hp-wm-230c25#

Anyone ever done the DIY route? Looks fairly simple…..


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

[Dromond]

Sealing up even a fraction of the obvious stuff makes a huge difference in comfort. A couple of hours with some spray foam and caulk can make a big difference.

OP already insulated the attic so that makes it a challenge.

It was actually insulated with some decomposed cedar shavings - really nice stuff! Are you talking about sealing leaks between interior rooms and the attic, specifically? Or, air that passes on the inside of interior walls - say entering from the basement and travelling up to the attic?

We had 2 installed month, cost us a little less than $8K each for what you describe.

Thanks for the reference point! I hope they are working out well for you.

https://www.premiumhomesource.com/pr...-hp-wm-230c25#

Anyone ever done the DIY route? Looks fairly simple…..


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

I was looking at some of that. My assessments from internet scouring are that DIY can indeed 25-50% of the cost of a cost of a professional install, but the quality of the unit and the warranty on it will generally be lower, and installing in a way that is as robust as a truly good professional takes a fair amount of knowledge and specialized equipment. With DIY there is a higher likelihood that you could mess something up and end up with a broken unit that nobody wants to fix for you, so much more of a dice roll. If you had a lot of units to install and took the time to understand the process really well and get all the equipment it seems like there is a lot of money to save - but less so for a single unit.

[zion zig zag]

Copy that. I have an upstairs bedroom that stays hot and I was looking into an ac only mini split. The cost of a DIY 12k btu unit is pretty appealing.


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

[Z]

I currently have an HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilator) in my house, so ducting to each room, and returns as well in the bathrooms.

Could I use this existing ductwork for a heatpump? I know I would lose much of the air-exchange/ventilation getting rid of the HRV...

[Buster Highmen]

When people if you have recently had an 18k btu mini split or similar installed recently, what did that cost you? Thinking a single condenser, single indoor unit, uncomplicated install, including electrical.

1 – Trane GAM5 series fan coil (model: GAM5B0B36M31EA; includes new refrigeration lines and condensate drain).
(2) 1 – Trane XR16 single stage 3 ton side discharge heat pump: approx. 15 SEER, 9.5 HSPF, 71dBA (model: 4TWL6036A1000A; includes outdoor equipment pad). BTU: 36000
(3) 1 – 15 kilowatt strip heater (model: BAYEABC15BK1BA).
(4) 1 – Filter cabinet w/ filter.
(5) All the labor and materials to install the heat pump are included (the existing electric furnace is a downflow located in the garage). We will remove the existing electric furnace and recycle it. The outdoor unit is to be located just on the other side of the wall from the furnace. Full system fire off
6) Programmable thermostat.

$12k

Ordered in March.
Might be installed by September, scheduled for August 17.

We have a 40 year old electric furnace in a 2200 ft^2 house.

We're just reusing the ductwork.

[Dromond]

1 – Trane GAM5 series fan coil (model: GAM5B0B36M31EA; includes new refrigeration lines and condensate drain).
(2) 1 – Trane XR16 single stage 3 ton side discharge heat pump: approx. 15 SEER, 9.5 HSPF, 71dBA (model: 4TWL6036A1000A; includes outdoor equipment pad). BTU: 36000
(3) 1 – 15 kilowatt strip heater (model: BAYEABC15BK1BA).
(4) 1 – Filter cabinet w/ filter.
(5) All the labor and materials to install the heat pump are included (the existing electric furnace is a downflow located in the garage). We will remove the existing electric furnace and recycle it. The outdoor unit is to be located just on the other side of the wall from the furnace. Full system fire off
6) Programmable thermostat.

$12k

Ordered in March.
Might be installed by September, scheduled for August 17.

We have a 40 year old electric furnace in a 2200 ft^2 house.

We're just reusing the ductwork.

$12k to replace your entire furnace doesn’t seem to bad. A friend just had a new heat pump installed for a smaller house and it was $30k, but they needed to have new ducts installed.

I know nothing about BTU - is 36000 typical for a 2200sf house? My gas furnace is 66000 for an 1800sf house, but perhaps those aren’t comparable. My understanding is that heat pumps are meant to run a lot more consistently compared to a gas furnace which cycles on and off a lot. Or at least mine does - it just has one speed.

[Nobody Famous]

I currently have an HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilator) in my house, so ducting to each room, and returns as well in the bathrooms.

Could I use this existing ductwork for a heatpump? I know I would lose much of the air-exchange/ventilation getting rid of the HRV...

>Could I use this existing ductwork for a heatpump?
Probably no, but maybe. HRVs/ERVs pull air out of spaces (bathrooms, kitchen exhaust) and dump the conditioned air (heated and humidified, or cooled and dehumidified) into one of a.) a return duct of forced air, b.) supply duct of forced air, or c.) living space. Suggest you study your HRV/ERV, note how the ducting flows and compare to the specifications of the model you own. The specs of the model you have are the key.

Check that you have an HRV or an ERV (Energy Recovery Ventilator, it exchanges both heat and humidity, HRV does only heat exchange).

No matter, if you get a heat pump that works with forced air you should not, and contractors had better not be telling you, forced air/heap pump combo means ripping out your HRV/ERV. Find another contractor and get a 2nd and 3rd opinion. If you are looking at a heat pump that works with other than forced air -- radiant floor, mini splits, etc. -- then you'd need to be in a very special case/special reasons to rip out an existing HRV or ERV.

IME contractors who advertise as "plumbing, heating and cooling" shy away from doing ERVs/HRVs, whole house dehumidifiers, solar, geo-thermal, radiant floor and related. Even the guys who say 'yes, we do ERVs/HRVs, radiant floor, solar etc.' check that is it's them doing the work or if it's a sub contractor they use part time evenings and weekends. Reason: They're subcontracting out a very specialized skill-set, and when something needs repair or warranty work you don't want to hear 'Joe our ERV [fill in other technologies] guy is on a two-week fishing vacation up in Ontario we'll let him know when he comes back...', or even worse 'Joe decided to retire to FL' and you'll never hear back from the main contractor again.

[Buster Highmen]

A friend just had a new heat pump installed for a smaller house and it was $30k, but they needed to have new ducts installed.

[bonewrenched]

Copy that. I have an upstairs bedroom that stays hot and I was looking into an ac only mini split. The cost of a DIY 12k btu unit is pretty appealing.


Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

I have this problem as well and thinking about augmenting our central air with a small mini split. Did you end up doing it?

[Z]

>Could I use this existing ductwork for a heatpump?
Probably no, but maybe. HRVs/ERVs pull air out of spaces (bathrooms, kitchen exhaust) and dump the conditioned air (heated and humidified, or cooled and dehumidified) into one of a.) a return duct of forced air, b.) supply duct of forced air, or c.) living space. Suggest you study your HRV/ERV, note how the ducting flows and compare to the specifications of the model you own. The specs of the model you have are the key.

Check that you have an HRV or an ERV (Energy Recovery Ventilator, it exchanges both heat and humidity, HRV does only heat exchange).

No matter, if you get a heat pump that works with forced air you should not, and contractors had better not be telling you, forced air/heap pump combo means ripping out your HRV/ERV. Find another contractor and get a 2nd and 3rd opinion. If you are looking at a heat pump that works with other than forced air -- radiant floor, mini splits, etc. -- then you'd need to be in a very special case/special reasons to rip out an existing HRV or ERV.

IME contractors who advertise as "plumbing, heating and cooling" shy away from doing ERVs/HRVs, whole house dehumidifiers, solar, geo-thermal, radiant floor and related. Even the guys who say 'yes, we do ERVs/HRVs, radiant floor, solar etc.' check that is it's them doing the work or if it's a sub contractor they use part time evenings and weekends. Reason: They're subcontracting out a very specialized skill-set, and when something needs repair or warranty work you don't want to hear 'Joe our ERV [fill in other technologies] guy is on a two-week fishing vacation up in Ontario we'll let him know when he comes back...', or even worse 'Joe decided to retire to FL' and you'll never hear back from the main contractor again.

Thanks for the response.

My general research is leaning towards no. But I have an Lennox HRV, which exhausts air from both bathrooms outside of the house, and pulls in fresh air from outside into the other living areas. No furnace involved as I have mix of electric baseboard/floor and a woodstove (which does all the work required really).

There is some relatively new tech that looks interesting - https://www.minotair.com/minotair-pentacare-v12_en/ - HRV that has a heat pump mode (among other things)...

[Nobody Famous]

Thanks for the response.

My general research is leaning towards no. But I have an Lennox HRV, which exhausts air from both bathrooms outside of the house, and pulls in fresh air from outside into the other living areas. No furnace involved as I have mix of electric baseboard/floor and a woodstove (which does all the work required really).

There is some relatively new tech that looks interesting - https://www.minotair.com/minotair-pentacare-v12_en/ - HRV that has a heat pump mode (among other things)...

The Minotair unit looks interesting. I'd note there are more Ontario and Quebec installers and dealers than US based, so factor that into your decision making. You want warranty coverage and serviceability across the full lifetime of the device you choose.

Should also note there are two or three big manufacturers of these and similar devices (to include dehumidifiers) in the US, and big corp players subcontract out the manufacture. Ex Santa Fe Products manufactures for Honeywell, Honeywell being a very big name for residential. Maybe call Minotair and ask ahead of time so you know up front if they subcontract out manufacturing.

The Minotair unit owner's manual has some very good diagrams of recommended ductwork, which is a good sign and a good thing. I'll say again if not already above, successful usage of these devices is highly based on the specifications, get it right up front and you'll be set and satisfied over the lifetime of the unit.

Edit to add: Here are a few short videos on how ERVs and HRVs work and differ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7US4TmyD6k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkvoXK6-fjk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RtbwkI2lH0

[Z]

The Minotair unit looks interesting. I'd note there are more Ontario and Quebec installers and dealers than US based, so factor that into your decision making. You want warranty coverage and serviceability across the full lifetime of the device you choose.

Should also note there are two or three big manufacturers of these and similar devices (to include dehumidifiers) in the US, and big corp players subcontract out the manufacture. Ex Santa Fe Products manufactures for Honeywell, Honeywell being a very big name for residential. Maybe call Minotair and ask ahead of time so you know up front if they subcontract out manufacturing.

The Minotair unit owner's manual has some very good diagrams of recommended ductwork, which is a good sign and a good thing. I'll say again if not already above, successful usage of these devices is highly based on the specifications, get it right up front and you'll be set and satisfied over the lifetime of the unit.

Edit to add: Here are a few short videos on how ERVs and HRVs work and differ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7US4TmyD6k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkvoXK6-fjk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RtbwkI2lH0

Got any links to similar units to that one? I haven't come across any...

[Nobody Famous]

No links unfortunately. Honeywell, Carrier and Panasonic are the brands I remember from the past. All three will stand and behind their equipment and warranty but note warranty almost always requires a professional installation.

Honeywell may sub contract out the manufacture or use of their name but they take doing so seriously, so wouldn't hesitate with them (their brand).

I do note in the TOH video they taped over the brand and do not mention the brand, which is not usual for their videos.

Here's a layman's guide to sizing an HVR: https://hvac-talk.com/vbb/threads/21...ne-size-an-HRV

[Z]

No links unfortunately. Honeywell, Carrier and Panasonic are the brands I remember from the past. All three will stand and behind their equipment and warranty but note warranty almost always requires a professional installation.

Honeywell may sub contract out the manufacture or use of their name but they take doing so seriously, so wouldn't hesitate with them (their brand).

I do note in the TOH video they taped over the brand and do not mention the brand, which is not usual for their videos.

Here's a layman's guide to sizing an HVR: https://hvac-talk.com/vbb/threads/21...ne-size-an-HRV

I've looked around and don't think anyone else is making a unit that has any sort of heat pump functionality (heating/cooling) other than the unit I linked...

[Nobody Famous]

I've looked around and don't think anyone else is making a unit that has any sort of heat pump functionality (heating/cooling) other than the unit I linked...

Based only on Google searching, I believe no one else offers this. Two reasons come to mind why this might be, 1. It's not just leading edge technology, it's even further out there, bleeding edge. 2. Existing equipment designs are better suited, i.e., is Minotair going to provide a better heat pump bolted into an ERV or HRV vs. the technology Carrier, Rudd, Trane, etc had been designing and refining for the past 30 or 40 years? It's possible, but do you want to be an early adapter even if this is so?

The real advances in heat pumps in last 5-7 years have been in making them efficient in the +10 to -5 deg F temp range. Think about that, the latest eauipment can extract heat when the outside air temp is -5 F.

[SoVT Joey]

Our daikin HP mini split from four years ago is a piece of shit compared to the new daikin we just got. The new one heats down to -5, is quieter when blowing air, pump is quieter because it’s behind the wall.

I have a bunch of buddies that have done DIY heat pump mini splits for grow rooms from Home Depot or other big box stores. You get what you pay for. Some work well for 5-7 years. Some work for 1-2 years. Good luck finding a tech to come work on a DIY unit.

Our units have both had minor issues, but I’m glad I can pick up the phone and call the contractor and most of the time it’s covered under some warranty or a non charge because something stupid went on.

I don’t have a ton of faith in our heat pumps and we have a main heat source that will heat the house when it’s cold out. They are great for AC, but I would be very skeptical about asking them to do much more then supplement. And my other half is a HVAC tech and she still feels the same as well.

[zion zig zag]

I have this problem as well and thinking about augmenting our central air with a small mini split. Did you end up doing it?

Still in the hand wringing phase. High of 65 today and probably no more hot days till next summer probably has me not thinking about it for a while.

[Nobody Famous]

I have a bunch of buddies that have done DIY heat pump mini splits for grow rooms from Home Depot or other big box stores. You get what you pay for. Some work well for 5-7 years. Some work for 1-2 years. Good luck finding a tech to come work on a DIY unit.

Our units have both had minor issues, but I’m glad I can pick up the phone and call the contractor and most of the time it’s covered under some warranty or a non charge because something stupid went on.

^ Yes, on all these points.

There's an open secret in the residential HVAC community that goes like this: It's not so much the manufacturer or brand as it is the installer and quality of the install that's most important. Some people say the mix is 25/75, (brand/install quality), IME this is true.

Someone can buy the highest quality equipment with the best warranty out there (carrier, honeywell, and trane come to mind) but have the install done by The Three Stooges and things fail after 2, 3 years. Yet the same equipment installed by knowledgeable, experienced technicians will last 15 & 20 years.

The major manufacturers are proactive about vetting who can sell and install their products, but gaps can and do exist. Warranties will always specify 'warranty only valid if purchased thru and install done by certified installer...' Getting the specs and design correct, and having a high quality install job both matter way more than brand name and warranty.

[gregL]

We were all set to go the heat pump route, got down to pricing 3 ton units, and asked the install guy about options. He said to be honest, if it was his home in Seattle, he'd go traditional AC instead - the energy savings are around $100-150 a year with a heat pump (different story if you were in the South or Southwest where power is more expensive and ran it most of the time) but chances are you'll get longer life out of the mechanicals because you aren't using the same blower, etc. as much. AC was around $1500 cheaper for the equipment. We got a new gas furnace and 3 ton AC system (both Lennox) using the old ducting for $13k.

[::: :::]

A question we sometimes forget to ask: what will it cost to run 10yrs from now?

[carlh]

In the Pnw I bet electricity from dams will be cheaper than natural gas by then. I agree with Greg that gas is cheaper now but now gas in my house and the heat pump is way cheaper to run than oil.

A question we sometimes forget to ask: what will it cost to run 10yrs from now?

[NBABUCKS1]

Good deal if anyone is thinking of buying one

https://slickdeals.net/f/16058401-pi...?src=frontpage

[NBABUCKS1]

so I installed mine in Wyoming. It's currently 5 degrees outside and it's 70 inside. This feels like magic but obv it's just AC in reverse. My current COP is 2.5 - so compared to a 1500 watt space heater I'm getting 2.5x the BTU's by sucking in heat from outside, rad.

I paid $1100 for my heat pump and vac'd and installed myself. It's stupid easy. obviously it works now but hopefully it still does in a few years .

this is what I bought 8 months ago for 1100. it works down to -22F. https://comfortup.com/products/gree-...built-in-wi-fi

Gree is a major manufacture of other brands.

[Shorty_J]

so I installed mine in Wyoming. It's currently 5 degrees outside and it's 70 inside. This feels like magic but obv it's just AC in reverse. My current COP is 2.5 - so compared to a 1500 watt space heater I'm getting 2.5x the BTU's by sucking in heat from outside, rad.

I paid $1100 for my heat pump and vac'd and installed myself. It's stupid easy. obviously it works now but hopefully it still does in a few years .

this is what I bought 8 months ago for 1100. it works down to -22F. https://comfortup.com/products/gree-...built-in-wi-fi

Gree is a major manufacture of other brands.

How are you measuring your current COP?

I understand the theory on heat pumps and just bought one... but I can't find a data sheet on my unit in how it performs as a function of temperature. At some point your heat pump needs to uses normal resistive heat (outside) to thaw out the frozen coil and your COP should drop... I just don't know how much and at what temp.

My installer told me to use -8c as the temp at which I switch from electric heat pump to gas furnace, but without data I don't totally buy that and I have a 97% efficient furnace so I changed it to -2c.

If you know a way to quantify when to make this switch I'd love to hear it.

Sent from my SM-A536W using Tapatalk